Jump to content
Nugget Shooter Forums

FRANCONIA "STREWN FIELD" IS TRAIN WRECK SITE


Recommended Posts

In a related topic, I was questioned as to how a train wreck would have thrown iron out into what is thought to be a strewn field 1 1/4 miles west of Franconia, Arizona. As I had first imagined, the engine boilers can explode with the force needed to produce a storm of iron projectiles. A test was conducted with two old engines near Crush Texas and the results startled everyone. The two engines with a few cars hit head on at only 45 mph...less than half the speeds at Franconia. Additionally, there were three engines involved at Franconia not just two as used in the test. Here's a link to the test that has a photo of the explosion blowing perpendicular to the tracks.

http://www.lsjunction.com/facts/crush.htm

At Franconia, the colliding trains were regular passenger trains with one running late and it was to be yielded to by all other traffic. The westerly bound Engine No. 482 did not stop at Franconia and was traveling at a speed of 60 to 70 mph. About 1 1/4 miles west of Franconia, it collided head on with a train being pulled by two engines, No.s 444 and 452, that were easterly bound at 40 to 50 miles per hour. Both trains were destroyed killing several people and injuring many more.

I've only passed by Franconia, never hunted it. Those that have really needed to be cautious in calling any iron fragment recovered from there a meteorite. From this evidence...the "meteorites" are only scrap iron and projectiles from the boiler explosion of the steam engines involved.

I truly hope this helps settle the matter without people being too upset by my findings.

Johnny Tonko

Link to post
Share on other sites

JT; that is an interesting article that seems to support your contentions...it is apparent that you don't turn loose of an idea once it takes hold...hope we meet up some day...perhaps a detecting trip to the area would provide some examples to compare to the Franconia Irons...

Fred

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny,

Your the expert, the whole world thanks you for figuring out what true scientists have been working on for several years.

I personally think your boat has a big hole in it and therefore doesn`t hold much water.

JIm

Link to post
Share on other sites
JT; that is an interesting article that seems to support your contentions...it is apparent that you don't turn loose of an idea once it takes hold...hope we meet up some day...perhaps a detecting trip to the area would provide some examples to compare to the Franconia Irons...

Fred

Fred:

The Franconia wreck took place many years after this staged wreck/experiment. I assume the company wanted to clean things up quickly and not say much about it when it happened again at Franconia. Not good news for passenger buisness!

There are several other places to get information on the staged wreck but that one had a great photo of the debris cloud. The link below gives more detail as to the hot metal raining down and two one ton trucks being lifted off the ground by the concussion and then being rolled end over end for 300 yards.

http://buckcreek.tripod.com/traincrash.html

JT

Johnny,

Your the expert, the whole world thanks you for figuring out what true scientists have been working on for several years.

I personally think your boat has a big hole in it and therefore doesn`t hold much water.

JIm

Jim:

Thanks for not taking it the wrong way.

Johnny

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, ok, I'll say it...I'll be the first to buy all the "Scrap" train irons found in the Franconia debris field. How does $5.00/lbs. sound??? Any takers??? :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: Jason <_>

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny

This only says what I said from the start.

Hundreds of yards is not 1 3/4 miles. Bolts

and rivets would not pass for meteorites.

The shrapnel would not have fusion crust.

The metal from the train would not pass

for irons.

Also they were unprepared for an exploding

boiler,because very few exploded in wrecks.

First determine what size ,class and type

locomotives were involved at Franconia.

That determines boiler size ,pressure,and

type. Some were prone to explode,some

were quite safe.

Next find out for fact if one did explode at

Franconia. It has not been shown that one

did. The combined speed of the Crush trains

was greater than the Franconia trains.

Train metal would be easy to recognise.

Cast would have clean breaks. The steel

would be ragged from being torn.

Depending on the size and type the boiler

temperature would have been 220 t0 300

degrees. Very few ran 300 degrees ,some

had after heaters on the flue box to gain

the extra temperature for super heated

steam to the cylinders.

Depending on model ,and size the boiler

could be 4 feet x 8 feet, all the way up to

5 feet x 14 feet. Water tubes took up a

lot of that space too.`

If you are going to use a theory to eliminate

things, put some work and facts into it.

I wouldn't know a meteorite if I saw one,

but I am not going to discredit anything,on

a wild guess and a sketchy train story.

So far all this amounts to is a maybe,would

have,could have day dream.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Johnny

This only says what I said from the start.

Hundreds of yards is not 1 3/4 miles. Bolts

and rivets would not pass for meteorites.

The shrapnel would not have fusion crust.

The metal from the train would not pass

for irons.

Also they were unprepared for an exploding

boiler,because very few exploded in wrecks.

First determine what size ,class and type

locomotives were involved at Franconia.

That determines boiler size ,pressure,and

type. Some were prone to explode,some

were quite safe.

Next find out for fact if one did explode at

Franconia. It has not been shown that one

did. The combined speed of the Crush trains

was greater than the Franconia trains.

Train metal would be easy to recognise.

Cast would have clean breaks. The steel

would be ragged from being torn.

Depending on the size and type the boiler

temperature would have been 220 t0 300

degrees. Very few ran 300 degrees ,some

had after heaters on the flue box to gain

the extra temperature for super heated

steam to the cylinders.

Depending on model ,and size the boiler

could be 4 feet x 8 feet, all the way up to

5 feet x 14 feet. Water tubes took up a

lot of that space too.`

If you are going to use a theory to eliminate

things, put some work and facts into it.

I wouldn't know a meteorite if I saw one,

but I am not going to discredit anything,on

a wild guess and a sketchy train story.

So far all this amounts to is a maybe,would

have,could have day dream.

sawmill:

Some sources quote different speeds but the investigators found both engines had only reached 45 mph. Spectators at the Crush wreck were killed and many were hit with debris while watching from the hillsides. Metal was turned molten and sizes ranged from postage stamps to half drive wheels.

The fact is there was plenty of energy to deliver the scattered hot fragments to the ends of the "strewn fields."

I've put sufficient work and facts into this to have a prudent man doubt that these objects are meteorites. Of course it doesn't match the work of all those that have been collecting over the past several years. Will they continue to work on this? Most likely. It is understandable that my work will be met with vigorous resistance. Lots of folks have invested a lot in this site and don't want to have their hopes and dreams challenged.

JT

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny

Not one account says anything about

molten metal,is just says hot metal.

Most of the damage from shrapnel

was at close range.

Both Crush locomotives were lots

older ,different design ,size and

make of the Franconia engines.

Their boilers were crude in design

and material compared to the Baldwins

that Santa Fe used.

300 degrees is hot metal. The metal

from the fire box's would be around

1400 degrees. Both hot enough to

cause serious injurys,but not melt.

It does,nt say how far back people

where,just at what was concidered a

safe distance.

In that part of Texas a hill can be

the banks on a cut. Anyone dumb

enough to run two trains together in

a crowd,couldn't judge a safe distance.

Their safe distance could have been

50 feet,who knows.

Old stories tend to grow over the years

too.

If you are serious about research

show proof of a blown boiler and some

hard facts on the Franconia wreck.

Grab a detector go to the most distant

spot from the tracks where irons have

been found, that may be train parts.

Check them out,if they match,then you

have something. Science works both

ways. It is just as hard to disprove things

as it is to prove them.

For all that we know one of the trains

could have been hauling a car load of

explosives for the mines. That would

have scattered molten metal for a

long distance. Sounds good, but no proof.

Until someone comes up with real train

parts from the strewn field that can be

identified. All of this is just entertainment. :ROFL:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Everyone:

sawmill said "Old stories tend to grow over the years too. If you are serious about research show proof of a blown boiler and some hard facts on the Franconia wreck."

That seems like a good idea. Sworn testimony from the U. S. Supreme Court covering the Franconia wreck can be found here...

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getc...us/202/438.html

Johnny Tonko

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny;

I have to agree with Jim ( your boat has a big hole and doesn't hold water out ).I posted two good pictures on the first of a series on the franconia iron curiosity.Widmanstatten pattern and Neumann lines.The iron meteorite came from franconia and was found by Dennis Wells.It also has a perfect heat affected zone around the outside.I own and have cut polished and etched many many iron meteorites of all classes and can say without a doubt that the particular irons from franconia i have acquired are genuine meteorites.

If the holders of franconia irons want to really know what they have they will have to polish and etch every specimen that isn't asthetically perfect.That is the only way.I think.

I hope all the hard working meteorite hunters will continue to look for and keep all the irons they find.Good job guys and gals.

Best Regards;Herman Archer.

P.s. If you aren't able to polish and etch let me know and i may be able to help.Thanks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It would seen that molten metal flying though the air would take the form of a tear drop before landing. Flying through the air would cool some of it enough to retain that shape. The rest would splash when it came into contact with a object just like blood or other fluid.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Johnny;

I have to agree with Jim ( your boat has a big hole and doesn't hold water out ).I posted two good pictures on the first of a series on the franconia iron curiosity.Widmanstatten pattern and Neumann lines.The iron meteorite came from franconia and was found by Dennis Wells.It also has a perfect heat affected zone around the outside.I own and have cut polished and etched many many iron meteorites of all classes and can say without a doubt that the particular irons from franconia i have acquired are genuine meteorites.

If the holders of franconia irons want to really know what they have they will have to polish and etch every specimen that isn't asthetically perfect.That is the only way.I think.

I hope all the hard working meteorite hunters will continue to look for and keep all the irons they find.Good job guys and gals.

Best Regards;Herman Archer.

P.s. If you aren't able to polish and etch let me know and i may be able to help.Thanks.

Hi Herman:

I'm glad to hear of your successes in obtaining the genuine meteorites.

All the submissions of Franconia Iron Meteorites that I can track into academia have failed to show meteoritic origins. If you've got genuine iron meteorites from this location, please get them classified so everyone will know the proper grouping. That would make it much easier to sort out the train wreck irons.

Thanks,

Johnny T.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just have to ask. I looked at the court documents youlisted, Instead of reading them I did a search for (among others that failed to turn up in the document) :

Boiler

Explosion

Impact

and etc.

So what am I supposed to find out about the supposed "explosion of the boiler" that you are submitting this document for?

Sorry. I have seen and even participated in blowing some things up, including fairly good sized turbine engines. And what you almost always find a shards and broken metal. (I spent the better part of a decade working with small and medium turbine engines used for both propulsion and APUs for companies in Phoenix)

Come on...molten metal from a STEAM engine? Scattered over how large an area?

Seems like something out a movie, not reality.

Now back to the reality of working and finding time to swing my new detector over something interesting.

Scott

Link to post
Share on other sites
Just have to ask. I looked at the court documents youlisted, Instead of reading them I did a search for (among others that failed to turn up in the document) :

Boiler

Explosion

Impact

and etc.

So what am I supposed to find out about the supposed "explosion of the boiler" that you are submitting this document for?

Sorry. I have seen and even participated in blowing some things up, including fairly good sized turbine engines. And what you almost always find a shards and broken metal. (I spent the better part of a decade working with small and medium turbine engines used for both propulsion and APUs for companies in Phoenix)

Come on...molten metal from a STEAM engine? Scattered over how large an area?

Seems like something out a movie, not reality.

Now back to the reality of working and finding time to swing my new detector over something interesting.

Scott

Scott:

Glad to see your giving this some consideration. At least you've considered that a train wrecked out there. That's a good start. The court case was brought for damages for injuries...not to prove exploding boilers. That evidence is in the "strewn filed". I linked it to prove to another guy that a head on wreck occured right where the Franconia Irons are being collected. Hopefully with sworn testimony from a Supreme Court case...we can agree that there was a head on crash 1 1/4 miles west of Franconia.

Reality is you cannot easily put aside the fact that pressures jump rapidly when a compressed cylinder is suddenly crushed. That always results in the temps jumping ...that is well proven by science (PV=nRT). The boiler explosions in the Crush Crash occured about one second after impact according to eyewitness accounts. Plenty of time for the energy imparted to flash melt some of the metal boiler cylinder . Those molten metals were then distributed by the failure of the melted/melting boiler. Turbines blowing up are quite another process. Surely you can recognize this?

What about all the cutting of the wreckage during recovery. Is it likely that those guys using the torches pick up all the melt?

Johnny

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny

Did you ever try to cut cast with a torch?

The wreck never was in doubt . But your

evidence lacks any proof of explosions of

any kind.

Playing a shell game doesn't help prove

anything. The space shuttle when it exploded

even scattered broken and shredded pieces.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Johnny

Did you ever try to cut cast with a torch?

The wreck never was in doubt . But your

evidence lacks any proof of explosions of

any kind.

Playing a shell game doesn't help prove

anything. The space shuttle when it exploded

even scattered broken and shredded pieces.

Dear sawmill:

Sorry to hear you think I'm playing a shell game. Rest assured that I'm only trying to help solve the mystery of why the Franconia Iron "meteorites" characteristics’ resemble iron relics. Just three days ago, nobody was even considering the possibility of a train wreck. Now that the wreck is not in doubt, we're discussing proof of explosions. I consider that to be some progress.

Johnny Tonko

Link to post
Share on other sites

Johnny

All I am saying is to use the same science

to rule something out ,as you do to qualify

it as real.

The great trainwreck is a mystery by itself.

So far the only facts that have surfaced is

three engines were involved and 3 engineers

killed. From the lack of information ,or news

stories, it must not have been much worse.

If you have any more information ,I would

really like to see it.

I am in to trains ,and history like you guys

are with meteorites.

I have to level with you ,I have helped

investigate several high speed head on truck

wrecks. Two 80,000 lb trucks at 70 mph can

scatter a few parts too. Plus I have helped

pick up a few wrecked trains,no steamers.`

Back when the Franconia trains wrecked,

all they had to move the wreckage was horses

wagons, timbers and jacks. They had a few

steam donkey's and cranes mounted on flat

cars. There was no dozers or anything to

push stuff around.

I am sure that over the years there could

have been some bits and pieces scattered

around. In 1901 they just cleaned up the

obvious stuff and were not too concerned

with the rest.

I don't know what the irons are that all the

guys are finding. But I don't think many are

related to the train.

This has been interesting to me and thanks

for the debate.

I hope all of you find many meteorites and

have a blast doing it.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 8 years later...

Howdy all.... This has always been an interesting thread from the beginning. Two freight trains colliding. Remember this happened one

hundred years ago. I'm really impressed by the link regarding the staged train wreck at Crush Texas. Having worked at Kennecott Copper

in the late 1940's and for the Southern Pacific in the early 1950s before the steam engines were fully replaced by the diesels I'm sort'a

familiar with the possibility of a coal driven stream engine such as in the first thread doing damage. Even a large main line fuel powered

Mallory's doing this amount of damage unless one or both was transporting explosives as a catalyst... jim

Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim,

The good news is that the train wreck didn't damage the meteorites that were on

either side of the tracks, and actually added to the local economy when all traces

of the wreck were carted off by scrappers during the Great Depression, and again

with the remnants, during the steel-drives of World War II.

Ben

Link to post
Share on other sites

If it is documented that the Franconia Train Wreck occurred 1 and 1/4 miles WEST of Franconia, it might be well to note that the Franconia Strewnfield is decidedly EAST of Franconia ... See the map below. Cheers, Uncpost-9-0-56639800-1416807289_thumb.jpgpost-9-0-47522800-1416807316_thumb.jpgpost-9-0-56639800-1416807289_thumb.jpgpost-9-0-56639800-1416807289_thumb.jpg

Edited by Uncle Ron
Link to post
Share on other sites

OOPs ... Sorry for the triple posts...Late Sunday night brain farts! :Just_Cuz_06:

Edited by Uncle Ron
Link to post
Share on other sites

Ben and Uncle Ron... This was an old post that has always fascinated me because of its interesting

and educational links. Plus the positive caliber of the posters... :thumbsupanim

Thanks for replying and I'm sure that there will be many forum readers who

will enjoy Uncle Rons map as the strewn field will never be completely worked out as I'm sure

meteorites both small and large are still being found... Thanks All tailgate jim straight :old:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...