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JW, in most places the courts have ruled in favor of the public that has used a ROW, be it kids going to school, people going fishing, camping, hunting , picnicking, prospecting or just passing through. The roads I am talking about are on the maps and were undoubtedly being used on a regular basis, until the courts in *some* areas ruled that the owner had the right to ban the public from using them.

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JW, in most places the courts have ruled in favor of the public that has used a ROW, be it kids going to school, people going fishing, camping, hunting , picnicking, prospecting or just passing through. The roads I am talking about are on the maps and were undoubtedly being used on a regular basis, until the courts in *some* areas ruled that the owner had the right to ban the public from using them.

Ahh, the gray area roads. These are going to be difficult to do since they don't fall under the 'Public' standing, the system for granting a ROW through private property is long and does not favor the public unless the city had happened to put out some $ for the road...

I believe that someone above mentioned befriending the property owners to get permission to pass, which is probably the path of least resistence but could also lead you down a dead end if simple easy access is what your looking for...

I would try and swing by the city and see what the legal course of action is to get the roads opened to allow access and feel out what the city's end of it is. Most of the time they don't like to do any work but they will give info freely (it may be different from different people) but you may pick up some good insights as far a future paths action goes.

I work as an architect and do large residential developments in urban areas I have to deal with community, the city, irate neighbors and business owners, everything, so far the best thing I have come up with in all this is to be as informed as possible when trying to work around or through these sensitive issues.

Great topic and a great discussion from everyone involved, I have learned a lot of good info and opininons. Thanks!

JW

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JW, not that it makes any difference, but in most of the cases I am talking about it is a county and not a city that has jurisdiction, but virtually ALL of the property being denied access to is supposedly publicly owned and administered by the BLM, although I am seeing some of the same thing with National Forests and I presume there is some of this going on with state lands. Arizona posts much of their state trust land against entry by anyone without a permit.

I think what has happened is that no agency, be it county, state or federal wants to police these lands. In that respect, I can't blame a landowner for exercising his or her right to close a road that he or she owns, particularly if they can be held liable for something that happens to a member of the public on their land while en route to public land.

But, the fact that a long standing ROW in the form of a road was not recognized on a deed is BS in my view because the evidence is there. The fact that the county, state and federal governments have all crossed their arms and said "ain't my yob" is another whole story in itself.

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Slim, Take a look at this link to see more of whats going on in ElDo county.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=481785

Thanks Wes. I know the ENF closed off a slew of roads in 2005, and I've seen lots of expensive steel gates out there as well as the little plastic variety in trails. I'll be real happy if I can just get in a 14 day stay out there and I'll be overjoyed when it's cool enough to head on back down to the desert.

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After a quick look I find that my road does not have a public right of way........... YAHOOOOOOOOO :thumbsupanim:

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That Right of way layer doesnt make any sense to me. Clicked on it, and it just grided off the section of blm I was looking at. I'm not sure if I would put much faith in it.

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I couldn't find an explanation of the rights of way on geocommunicator. I presume the code means something but I sure don't see where the right of way is located. I guess if you drive out there you'll find out. Then again, I've driven to spots indicated as BLM land that had shopping centers and/or residential developments on them.

El Dorado, are you saying you closed the road without knowing if it was a right of way? :WOW:

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The road had not been used by the public for at least 20 years and is on private property. When I talked to the county surveyor he did not even list it as a road. That is all the research I did as I felt the county surveyers office would know more than anyone. I feel the combination of the county records and now the BLM via the geocommunicator just reinforces my decision.

Slim I do not know why you are taking such a personal stand against me, could it be jeoulousness? Please remember. It took me over 20 years to find just such a spot that I have now, not to mention the cost of buying a 40 acre patent and paying the taxes.

If you really feel like you need to get down to the BLM controlled river area, there is a road showing on the map north of my gate that leads to Mosquito creek. Problem is you will have to spend 2 weeks to clear the road to get in. Then when you do get down to the river, you cannot prospect because of existing claims! I think you will find that if there is a river or creek in a similar situation, you will find that a valid claim will keep you from prospecting there anyway. But I forget, you need cell coverage and there is none. There is lots of open property at higher elevations that is not claimed and fairly accessable, oops I forgot not really accessable with a big RV and no cell coverage. Your problem my friend is that you limit yourself and try to blame other for your self imposed limits. I coud show you miles and miles of just perfect land you need but your self imposed rules eliminate them. You need to get away from populated areas and private propery. As you get away from populated areas out here in the mountains, there are many places to go.

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Hey guys, I heard there was a huge mexican pot bust off Rock Creek Rd the other day. Kinda scarry, as I

was in that area poking around one of the side creeks earlier this year. Didn't find much but ran in to an old mine with some satanic symbols around it. Kinda creeped me out. Also stumbled on a couple older jugs of what appeared to be leftovers from meth cooking. It turned the ground into a jelly. Be carefull around the little creeks!

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El Dorado, I was kidding with the " :WOW: " in regard to your case. You have described in detail how the road through your property came to be closed. Why would you be jubilent in learning that the BLM records back up what you already know and have told us?

I can assure you that any stance I have is not against you personally, and the fact that there is public land that is inaccessable has nothing to do with me, my job, my RV or cell phone coverage. It is just plain wrong. Furthermore, I have no idea what part of the river you are referring to.

I do know that you like to use that Mosquito Bridge to get to your claim when you can however. How would you feel if some public servant made a mistake in the past and it turned out that the bridge was on private land and the owner closed it down to everyone but himself? After 20 or 40 years people would just get used to it wouldn't they? The road on both sides of the bridge would become overgrown eventually, because what good is a road if it doesn't go anywhere or you can't get to it?

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Wes,

Thanks for the heads up as I have been dinking around Rock creek road now that I have to use it for access to my Gated Road.

Slim, your scenario is so far fetched that I will not address it.

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Slim, your scenario is so far fetched that I will not address it.

It's not far fetched at all. This is exactly what has happened to millions of acres of public land. Apparently you think it's a good thing. I sure don't, and basically everyone who has posted on this subject, other than you, agrees with me.

In your initial post on this subject you said, "I thing you should take that anger to our wonderfull politicians that are constantly attempting to take away all access to public land by converting it to wilderness."

What is the difference?

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One of the fundamental core values of this country is the ownsership of land. One of the core values of ownership of private property is being able to legally protect it! More public land is being closed to the public by The Forest Service and Park Service than any private land owners. They are the ones that you need to put your misdirected energy towards. But then again, I forget,you are new to the West and have not experienced just how much land the FS has closed off to the public as you have not witnessed it for the last 35 years as I have.

Just as one example, do a google on the Elko Shovel brigade and you will see the kind of thing I am talking about...... There are thousands of cases just like that.

I am very sensative towards anyone and any agency that wants to erode my privalages as a landowner. I am also very sensitive towards any agency that is constantly taking away access to public land or rights under current law.

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Hi All,

First off I must say you guys are really showing both sides of this issue in fine style and without bickering, I am impressed as this is an issue with allot of imbedded passion.

Here is my take on this, pretty simple really... When someone buys land for sale it is just that "Their Land" Any blame can't be placed on the landowner for not wanting people trashing their property or trespassing. I have seen some roads remain open and along them you will see signs asking you not to trespass or fencing along both sides, do I like it perhaps not, but they own the land fair and square and for me to assume I still have a right to be there is wrong wither I think the road should be closed road or not!

The access rights should have been addressed by whomever was in charge of the sale and if the BLM says they can close it...well what can one say. Everyone wants to hate the landowner, but if he bought the land with the right to restrict access no amount of my anger of his right to close that access will change a thing and if I look deep in these situations the reason is indeed jealousy over his right to own such nice prospecting land :inocent: I mean geeeze gotta face the truth right and I have indeed driven miles only to find a new "Keep out Private Property" sign blocking access.

In many cases access is blocked to a BLM area through private property when the road has been used on and off for decades, again look past the land owner to place blame on whomever allowed the closure and it will usually be the BLM and if there are no active claims in the parcel you are trying to get to they just allow the closure. Many land owners do leave these roads open with restrictions, but others simply choose not to and this is partially due to what many will do to their land while passing through. We have all seen the trash etc. and you know I think if it was your land....well...wouldn't you be pissed?

We have in the West always enjoyed our wide open spaces unlike our neighbors on the East side of the Mississippi, but as the population increases my friends more and more of this will happen with land swaps etc. so the state can sell to developers until most remaining BLM will be Wildlife Refuge or Park if we don't make our voices heard soon. I agree access should remain open, but fighting the land owner is the wrong place to make your stand ;)

Just my :twocents:

Bill

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Just though I would share a few pictures of my nugget patch which is located behind my gate. It's a great place to hang when the temps get into tripple digits, not to mention the gold! Did I mention it is downright beautifull too?

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I have hesitated to post on this thread as I dont want to stir up a bunch of crap, but I do agree with Bill that the private land owner has a right to control his land even if the public does not like it. In addition to the trash and folks who do not respect other's property, I think a big part of this blame goes to the lawyers of our country and our "sue happy" culture. If I owned land in the mother lode, I'd post it all over no tresspassing simply for fear of some giant California lawsuit.

Welcome to the Mother lode country - we have access issues here. :bang:

Eldorado - very pretty. On the other hand, I have never done well in places that have granitic bedrock. Too darn smooth. Also - you know that Elko Shovel Brigade region (Jarbidge area) is gold country! Just the placer there is so fine its like dust.

Chris

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I have had good luck and lousy luck on granite bedrock. It is always hit and miss, just have to find the right structure: translation: high water low pressure area, rotten quartz vugs, cracks and crevices. OR a good virgin spot around a big boulder. Other than that you are right, that slick granite is pretty much void of gold.

On another claim on the upper reaches of the Middle Fork of the American , the bedrock is identical and I once found 7 1/2 oz just laying around a big boulder in less than 10" of overburden all of it in the 2-5 dwt size...go figure, but that was sure fun and my partner found 15 oz's in a crack no longer than 18"!

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I know of a few roads in my area that were closed due to the landowners being in fear of their familys lives.

Irresponsible people were 4wheelin down the roads at all hours of the night, blasting music, shooting guns and leaving heaps of trash practically in their backyard. I believe BLM was actually happy to see the landowners close things down.

El Dorado, I detected my 1st nugget a couple miles down form your area.

Here's a little pic.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi Guys,

In the State of Arizona, it is illegal to block a Public right of way. It is also law that any road that is used by the public for ten years or more IS a public right of way. This holds true whether the road is paved or unpaved, named or unnamed, dedicated right of way or not. Getting the Federal Government to unblock a road is wholly dependant on the whims of the local officers. Look what a great job the Feds have done enforcing illegal emmigration! What you CAN do, IS sue the property owner in court. You WILL win. And don't settle out of court when the property owner says he'll let YOU through the gate, make sure that the PUBLIC is allowed access on the PUBLIC right of way to the PUBLIC land! Don't forget to include legal costs and loss of recreation in your suit, it will bring them to their knees fast. Good evidence of a road being used by the public for ten years or more is very easy to find. Topograghic quadrangles and county road maps are DATED and show all roads in use at the time. Also, at the BLM, the micro-fiche files of Mineral Patents, Public Lands Surveys, and Homestead Entry Grants show roads that existed more than a hundred years ago and provided ingress and egress to all adjoining propery, both Public and private. How did the miners, ranchers, and settlers get from point A to point B? Case closed!

Check it out, Ben

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Just because a road was built 100 years ago and it shows on some map, does not mean the road has been in continual use by the public!

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There are precious few law enforcement officers out there in the sticks to catch those few who ruin it for the rest of us. BLM Rangers, Forest Service level 4's, State Game Wardens- They're all hurting for funding and employees. They also love to get a good dumping, poaching, vandalism, or illegal gun play case when they can. Help these folks when you can. Being a good witness and maybe changing an idiot's habits is better than doing nothing but complaining.

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Eldorado,

It's not continual use, only ten years, historically. You see, one hunded and thirty, or one hundred fifty years ago, the ORIGINAL property owners came and went (ingress and egress) with each other's permission on roads that they, the PUBLIC, needed to exist. Those right of ways have "SENIOR title rights" that succeeding property buyers (Johnny-come-lately's) cannot dissolve because the rights stay with the Original propertys, new owners or not. Hey, don't take my word for it, ask any property lawyer, or land surveyor, or..........find out the hard way, in court. Better do your homework! The law is the law.

Nuff said, Ben

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi all,

I own some sizable chunks of land in Northerrn Az checkerboard (Alternaing state and private sections.)

We've had issues up there for a long time (Generations) with the checkerboard design. (Gov did this on purpose!)

It has gotten sizably better since we have been able to gate our private property.

For the most part I don't beleive at least in Az this was pointed at Prospectors.

I don't Ranch up north all year. Just turn my ponies loose for grazing part time.

Prior to being able to gate and close the road I had horses shot by dyslexic hunters and my cabin,watertank,widmill and trailer riddled.

And one joker that decided to test out his backhoe by digging a pit on my property.

Without being there all the time and needing a thousand pairs of eyes, it is impossible to catch all these clowns and prosecute. (Caught the backhoe Jerk)

Tens of Thousands of dollars damage some years.

I finally got the right to secure my land and gated the Ranch Fence road.

Problems stopped....

Now there are two other ranchers that use the BLM lands beyond. They have permission at their will to pass.

I posted my mailing address on the gate. I have had a lot of requests for passage and usage.

I have granted every single request and no problems.

I even let a prospector park a trailer on my land so he could work his claim on BLM.

I do this frequently for prospecting myself, Never been turned down...

(In fact there are quite a few ranchers that now keep a gold pan while running fence line, because of me. 8^)

I don't think most of the landowners are just stealing the BLM. Besides ya have to pay for those grazing rights!

Just controlling the access keeps out the bad sort....

Are there nasty land owners ... yeah... just like some prospectors and hunters can be.

But protection of personal property goes way beyond usage rights. And if the government doesn't build access they prollly don't want you there.

Now some of the California stuff being discussed that just sounds like some nasty people being spiteful. Sad that.

I'm born and bred four generation desert rat.... I'd bet they are easterners playing cowboy...

I for sure know, ya need your neighbors....

This country has become a litgeous joke.

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