Jump to content
Nugget Shooter Forums

Tobacco tins & mining claim markers


Recommended Posts

  Was it a rule that all mining claim markers are to be kept in Tobacco tins ?  When we go out to a mining district we first look around for any claim markers so we are not on a valid claim , In old districts markers were rock cairns ( pile of rocks appx. 3ft high)  at the bottom under one of the rocks is the claim marker that tells who claimed it , When, What they claimed , And if it is a active claim ,  Most are invalid or out dated for over 50 years ,  I have a collection of tins I want to share with everyone ,  Photos below

 

006.JPG

009.JPG

010.JPG

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

Those are really cool but please don’t take this personally-  I leave old things like that alone for others to see and enjoy. Besides, if they were on BLM, FS, or NPS public lands, and some state lands as well, they may be protected due to their age being even over 50 years. 

They could be historically important records too, tracing who in the past has been where, what they did and where, and other historical information like that that may have been lost in other records.

It’s sad, as many of us who love exploring the desert and visiting historic mines and other interesting places have seen,  a lot of the old sites with really neat things we used to go to have all been cleaned up. Many have been picked over by unscrupulous professional collectors who don’t care about the artifacts at all, just the money they’ll get by selling them . That’s why places that still have old artifacts are so neat to see and so important to protect.

  • well done 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice collection of tobacco tins!! We love them too, but we only have few that are in good shape! You have some nice ones for sure.

And the artifact has to be 100 years old, not 50 years! According to the Antiquities Act that i carry a copy of in my detecting pouch. Not trying to cause waves but lets make sure we are spreading good information. 

  • Thanks 1
  • Hmmmmmm 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, nugget108 said:

Nice collection of tobacco tins!! We love them too, but we only have few that are in good shape! You have some nice ones for sure.

And the artifact has to be 100 years old, not 50 years! According to the Antiquities Act that i carry a copy of in my detecting pouch. Not trying to cause waves but lets make sure we are spreading good information. 

You are right about the Federal Antiquities Act stating historic artifacts over  100 uears old. However BLM, NP and FS - and some States on state lands have rules protecting artifacts as young  as 50 years or older -like me! :old:. Here’s a good thread describing all that (below).

What it comes down to is understanding the FCR’s of the type of federal land you’re on, as well as those of the state lands-

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Antiquities Act doesn't protect historic pieces or artifacts. It's not about how old something is. The law was created to protect archaeological resources.

Just because somethings old doesn't make it an archaeological resource. It's only when historical artifacts are associated together in an archaeological context that they are protected. A single belt buckle or tin can not in natural association is not an archaeological resource. A lone buried cache in the desert is not an archaeological resource. Old bullets, bits of pipe and screen, boot tacks and all the other dross we find are not archaeological resources unless they are directly associated with an archaeological resource site.

There are also exceptions written into the Antiquities Act. Bullets and coins are not subject to the act, arrowheads found on the surface are fair game and development of mineral resources on a valid mining claim are exempt.

The Act does specify 100 years as the cutoff. Anything younger than 100 years old, even if it is an archaeological resource, is not subject to the Act. This is not the only federal law protecting antiquities but it is the only one on the federal public lands. Some agencies may try to bluff with handouts and nonsense about 50 years or whatever but they have nothing to back them up.

The fact of the matter is if you aren't digging native settlements or historic sites you are probably OK just about anywhere on federal public land. As a forest archaeologist once told me "You think I'm going to go into court and swear a nail or a piece of an old watch are antiquities of interest found in context AND that they are more than 100 years old ... ain't gonna happen." On the other hand this archaeologist had helped several people digging native villages discover the joys of the penitentiary lifestyle.  :D

States can, and do, pass any laws they want regarding antiquities on State lands. They could set 50 years or 5 or 500 years if they wanted and that would be the law for that State's lands. Those laws have no effect on Federal public lands.

Heavy Pans

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I remember that thread. And i still agree with Clay on it. I have worked for a few of those government agencies and what they tell people they will do and what they can actually do are 2 different things. The laws are the laws, thats for sure. They cant right a law in black and white and change it as they see fit! Yes there are certain items and certain areas that are off limits and by all rights should be, but things like tobacco tins and stuff like that are considered trash. I had a college student and a Forest service employee stop me one time in a spot we use to detect for coins. They said they were calling the sheriff and demanded i give them my detector haha. Well i proceeded to ask them what laws i was breaking and they said i was breaking the Antiquities laws. So after a half hour or so of them coming up with everything they could think of, i pulled out my paper i carry. Then i told them while you have the sheriff on his way, why dont you have your boss just go ahead and hop in with him too! By the time it was all said and done, their boss was chewing them up one side and down the other and the sheriff was absolutely ticked off his time was wasted. All im saying is, fight the battles you know you can win. Because if you dont, less and less people will and thats how they gain power over us. Having old coins, and certain relics for private collections is perfectly ok.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

GotAU, 

I use to leave cool old relics for other people to see also, until i realized that someone else after me took it and displayed it on their mantle at home. And i think the generation of folks like us going out and admiring the past are about over. Now you go to these sites and things are painted up with graffiti and tore down. Its really sad to be honest with you! So i do see where you are coming from too!! 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn’t realize that on Federal Lands there were no soecific rules about collecting isolated younger than 100-year old items. Reading the regulations on many agency websites certainly leaves a different impression, as they often specifically say otherwise. Good information Clay!

My main point was just that collecting stuff leaves less for others to see, and  may disturb the context of a site. Also, most of us wouldn’t know if an artifact was part of a site or something historically significant or not. All the arrowheads, knapping cores, manos and metates, dynamite boxes, old bottles, cans, ore carts and tools I’ve ever found are still there - At least I hoped they would be after leaving them in place, but unfortunately, many are gone now.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

GotAU, 

I use to leave cool old relics for other people to see also, until i realized that someone else after me took it and displayed it on their mantle at home. And i think the generation of folks like us going out and admiring the past are about over. Now you go to these sites and things are painted up with graffiti and tore down. Its really sad to be honest with you! So i do see where you are coming from too!! 

I totally agree with you, it’s funny I should’ve wrote my last post before yours. I didn’t get to read yours until just now.

You were right though, and unfortunately a lot of those artifacts we left behind probably ended up on eBay, those people don’t care what they are.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

My kids and i have one hell of a collection of axe heads and pick heads. We love displaying them in our yard and on the sheds. People that come over absolutely love looking at all the old items. So in a sense i guess we saved history and people get to enjoy it without having to go look for it lol!!

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, GotAU? said:

I didn’t realize that on Federal Lands there were no soecific rules about collecting isolated younger than 100-year old items. Reading the regulations on many agency websites certainly leaves a different impression, as they often specifically say otherwise. Good information Clay!

Technically anything humans leave behind on federal lands is considered abandoned property. Once a short time limit has expired (I seem to recall 48 hours) the abandoned item becomes the property of the federal government (NOT the property of the agency). Each surface management agency has a process and time limit as to how long the property can be held and how to dispose of it.

Of course that system works well with umbrellas, radios, binoculars, sleeping bags and beach towels but long abandoned items of dubious worth fall into another realm of "who cares" and "even if someone did care how are you going to convince a Judge that the government was damaged by someone digging up a rusty tin can?"

This federal "ownership" of abandoned junk in the ground is the only basis these surface management agencies have for claiming regulatory authority over what man made objects you take from the public lands. People do get prosecuted for taking abandoned property from the public lands. Hauling away ore carts, buildings, abandoned trailers, vehicles etc. and selling them will get you a big fine and restitution if you are caught. Trying to prosecute someone for having rusty location tins that were lawfully posted on the public lands - not gonna happen.

Some of these public agencies try to rule through bullying or fear. Some common sense and a knowledge of the actual laws will counter that. Education is the key. Good sense is the method. Don't dig where you shouldn't, don't take stuff you know you shouldn't and don't live your life worrying about going to jail for some boot tacks.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wow , That's a lot of info I never new ! ,  So if I find an old miners cache w/old cans , picks & shovels in the National Forest in a remote canyon 3 miles from any road they are all protected artifacts ?   I would share photo but now I am Scared :hide:

  • Haha 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, nugget108 said:

GotAU, 

I use to leave cool old relics for other people to see also, until i realized that someone else after me took it and displayed it on their mantle at home. And i think the generation of folks like us going out and admiring the past are about over. Now you go to these sites and things are painted up with graffiti and tore down. Its really sad to be honest with you! So i do see where you are coming from too!! 

The pioneers left a ton of stuff in northern NV. Sad stories about them having to abandon their covered wagons and prairie schooners when they broke down or the horses, mules & oxen that were pulling them died. 
Quote: The 40 mile desert was the most feared stretch of travel for the pioneers in covered wagons traveling the California Emigrant Trail, more so even than the Sierra. This waterless "Dry Drive" extended from the end of the Humbolt river at the Humbolt Sink to the sparkling waters of the Truckee River East of present day Reno. Wagon trains typically took 2-3 days to cross, carrying water, grass for their oxen, and pulling their wagons across the shrubby desert and the blindingly white salt flats. Many parties were forced to abandon their animals, wagons, and even members of their parties as they succumbed to the harshness of the high desert. Mark Twain remarked that "we could have walked the forty miles and set our feet on a bone at every step". 170 years later, there are still remnants of abandoned wagons and grave markers strewn across the flats."

https://www.californiatrailcenter.org/40-mile-desert/

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Dakota Slim said:

The pioneers left a ton of stuff in northern NV. Sad stories about them having to abandon their covered wagons and prairie schooners when they broke down or the horses, mules & oxen that were pulling them died. 
Quote: The 40 mile desert was the most feared stretch of travel for the pioneers in covered wagons traveling the California Emigrant Trail, more so even than the Sierra. This waterless "Dry Drive" extended from the end of the Humbolt river at the Humbolt Sink to the sparkling waters of the Truckee River East of present day Reno. Wagon trains typically took 2-3 days to cross, carrying water, grass for their oxen, and pulling their wagons across the shrubby desert and the blindingly white salt flats. Many parties were forced to abandon their animals, wagons, and even members of their parties as they succumbed to the harshness of the high desert. Mark Twain remarked that "we could have walked the forty miles and set our feet on a bone at every step". 170 years later, there are still remnants of abandoned wagons and grave markers strewn across the flats."

https://www.californiatrailcenter.org/40-mile-desert/

We love going to the California trail center! Its a really cool place to visit. Speaking of the California Trail, if any of you are into audio books, check this out. It is very interesting and detailed. 

20220702_143406.jpg

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...