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Hi All

I haven't posted much lately but I received an interesting call a few days ago. I've only received calls like this a couple of times before. Usually I just find new potholes on my property or claim. A young fellow called and asked permission to detect a mining claim I have. I turned him down because of dangers on the property. But thanked him for the phone call. 

Happy Huntin John B.

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So correct me if im wrong, but BLM owns the property right? Why would you think you would be held liable for someone getting hurt while prospecting? That would be the same as someone riding their dirt bike or hiking and something happening to them on public land right? Since you only own the minerals and not the property, im sure you would be clear of anything unless you created a major hazard and didn't take the proper precautions to keep something from happening. 

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Nugget108,

John has some private ground (not a claim) and possibly that is the area in question, a proverbial slip of the tongue.....

Not sure, but it was correct for the man to ask John for permission in any case.  Lots of plundering going on out there.....

Mebe John will provide more information.  Good to see you on here John!

Happpy Hunttin

Jeff

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Hi All

The request was for a load mine claim I own. A year ago or so I was demanded to place fences around some shafts and tunnels on the property. The holes were put there in the teens by the original miners. According to the state mine inspector I was given 30 days to fence the hazards or pay daily fines. Well my drive in access has been blocked and I'll be darned if I'm gonna lug my chunky butt up 2 miles and 2000 feet with a roll of barbed wire and several dozen steel fence poles. This is a new state law Arizona has since a kid on a quad drove into a mine shaft. Soo if your thinking about claiming an existing mine in Az. be prepared to put up fences to their specifications or pay a hefty fines .

Happy Huntin and fencin John B.

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1 hour ago, pairadiceau said:

Nugget108,

John has some private ground (not a claim) and possibly that is the area in question, a proverbial slip of the tongue.....

Not sure, but it was correct for the man to ask John for permission in any case.  Lots of plundering going on out there.....

Mebe John will provide more information.  Good to see you on here John!

Happpy Hunttin

Jeff

Heck yeah, he definitely did the right thing by asking for permission. I was just talking about the liability for someone getting hurt on public land and him being personally liable is all. Definitely cant trust too many people these days sadly. 

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John B, I'm glad to know you are still alive and kicking! 
So what happened? Did you find a couple youngsters  :idea: who wanted to learn how to plant steel posts and string wire so you didn't have to "lug your chunky butt up 2 miles and 2000 feet with a roll of barbed wire and several dozen steel fence poles"? 

:hiker::hiker::hiker:

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On 12/13/2020 at 5:50 PM, nugget108 said:

Heck yeah, he definitely did the right thing by asking for permission. I was just talking about the liability for someone getting hurt on public land and him being personally liable is all. Definitely cant trust too many people these days sadly. 

I wonder who the attorney would sue if someone got hurt on the steel posts or barbed wire that someone put on public land?

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I do know a claim owner who was showing someone interested in buying his claim around.  The interested party hurt his ankle, involving a trip to an emergency room, which afterwards involved asking for insurance and a threat to sue.  When the claim owner explained he had nothing worth suing for, the interested party who had the trip to the emergency room dropped the case.

To me, the threat of being sued is worrisome, sometimes crippling in making decisions.

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10 hours ago, Dakota Slim said:

I wonder who the attorney would sue if someone got hurt on the steel posts or barbed wire that someone put on public land?

Product Liability. The manufacturer would get sued under the theory of liability that the manufacturer, "knew or should have known" that the product was inherently dangerous and likely to cause injury.

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Glad to see you're back posting, JB...I hope you're doing OK!...Cheers, Unc

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On 12/13/2020 at 5:13 PM, John B. said:

...This is a new state law Arizona has since a kid on a quad drove into a mine shaft....

Almost drove my Jeep into a prospect pit last week (within a foot or so of going in) on BLM land that was once part of a HUGE mining claim. BLM fenced the main shafts but NONE of the huge and friggin deep pits all over the place out there. Those mine inspectors need to go after the last known owners too. 

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30 minutes ago, Electrician said:

. Those mine inspectors need to go after the last known owners too. 

Not sure if I agree with this.  Especially seeing how often a claim will change hands with no work done by many owners.


Also, a lot of these workings I drive on are decades or even a century or older.  Not sure how someone can be held liable for erosion of roads

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Why not, they're going after the current owner?

Why did BLM (known fact they did the work in this area) fence off the shafts (they left the upper shaft open) but leave the pits?

They're snatching up land at record pace and extorting royalties from owners to boot, they have the resources to fence off the the pits also.

 

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1 hour ago, Electrician said:

Why not, they're going after the current owner?

Why did BLM (known fact they did the work in this area) fence off the shafts (they left the upper shaft open) but leave the pits?

They're snatching up land at record pace and extorting royalties from owners to boot, they have the resources to fence off the the pits also.

 

I want my royalties.

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45 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I want my royalties.

Then maybe you or the BLM should get out there with some steel fence posts and barbed wire.
It seems to me at one point the BLM was supposed to do that. 

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The issue is that some government lackey is threatening an owner who no longer has access to his mine. They knew the pits were there before this owner bought this claim, they're "inspectors", they knew. These are the same folks who are supposed to enforce the RECLAMATION portion of operating plans. This is extortion!

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If you contact the BLM, they may be receptive to what you have to say.  

They were real helpful when someone I know reported a public road fenced off on BLM land, ended up sending someone out to check it out.  Unfortunately for my friend, he did not know where he was at and actually reported private property being fenced off.  My point is, if you contact them they could help you out.  I’d be careful about that.  help could come in the form of a travel management plan that shuts down miles worth of trails.

I sometimes think that these roads are driven down without proper “scouting.”  These are not maintained roads and you really do need to ensure that they are safe.  For me, a rather well looking trail I went down had been undermined vey a creek.  I had drove over that with my 8k LBS diesel.  If I fell in, that would not be the BLMs fault.  It was on a posted trail, but these are “at your own risk.“

With the reclamation portion, I don’t know your area, but the attention we pay to reclamation is somewhat new.  A lot of the areas I go to, when the mining was done there was no reclamation, you just walked away.

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If you claim an existing mine you are accepting responsibility for the hazards. 

It is a cruel and unfair world. But that is the way it works.

If you don't want the responsibility or the liability then don't lay claim to it. Then the responsibility and liability belongs to the BLM.

There are lots of hazards in a mining area. Anyone who thinks the BLM or the State is obligated to fence those hazards is living in a fantasy world. And anyone who thinks that a claimant does not assume the liability when they assume control of the claim is equally naieve.

BLM is very clear about this. And so is State law.

BLM has had a program to fence and fill old workings for at least 20 years. They get money to do this periodically. They are constantly surveying and prioritizing hazards and they address them as funding becomes available. But they simply can't address every hole out there.

They expect claim owners to accept responsibility for hazards on their claims just like they expect the public to not drive their jeeps into holes. I personally don't see that as too much to ask. 

If erecting a fence is too much effort to expend then the claim is probably not that valuable anyway. A claimant is supposed to do assessment work to hold the claim and if a fence is too much then the other work on that claim is probably not getting done either.

If you want to hold mineral rights to a piece of public land with hazards created by previous mining operations you need to factor in assuming that liability. It is no different in any business or any property. Im not sure why it should be different with a mining claim. 

 

 

 

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Hi Bob and All

I'm not toooo sure your right on this one Bob. I don't own the surface rights so I can't protect them . If I owned a condo which is only ownership of the interior of a building and someone fall in a hole in the front yard am I liable ? I only hold mineral rights on public property. I can't go up there and fill the holes with equipment with out an arm length of paperwork and permits. If I were to purchase a property yes then I assume the liability. I also was informed years ago about this property that once we altered it buy fencing we then become liable for it. These holes and tunnels are over a century old. Soooo Don't you at least feel sorry for me ?? :cry2:

Happy Huntin John B.

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21 hours ago, Electrician said:

Almost drove my Jeep into a prospect pit last week (within a foot or so of going in) on BLM land that was once part of a HUGE mining claim. 

Maybe you should stay on the road :arrowheadsmiley:

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