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Very little of the public lands and n AZ have mineral claims, at least percentage wise looking at a map.  In my county and surrounding counties, except for one little area, all the BLM land has a grazing allotment on it.

 

Should the ranchers share in this responsibility?  
 

Sure not the shafts, but what happens if the creek washes out a trail and my 8k lbs truck is stuck?  Should the ranchers and if it is claimed, the claim owner share the responsibility to get me out?

 

I hope not.  I assume responsibility to go on public land.  If they are responsible, the BLM can bar entry as we’ve seen with dozens of TMPs.

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25 minutes ago, chrisski said:

Very little of the public lands and n AZ have mineral claims, at least percentage wise looking at a map.  In my county and surrounding counties, except for one little area, all the BLM land has a grazing allotment on it.

 

Should the ranchers share in this responsibility?  
 

Sure not the shafts, but what happens if the creek washes out a trail and my 8k lbs truck is stuck?  Should the ranchers and if it is claimed, the claim owner share the responsibility to get me out?

 

I hope not.  I assume responsibility to go on public land.  If they are responsible, the BLM can bar entry as we’ve seen with dozens of TMPs.

Exactly!! Take responsibility for your own actions! Great response.

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5 hours ago, John B. said:

Hi Bob and All

I'm not toooo sure your right on this one Bob. I don't own the surface rights so I can't protect them . If I owned a condo which is only ownership of the interior of a building and someone fall in a hole in the front yard am I liable ? I only hold mineral rights on public property. I can't go up there and fill the holes with equipment with out an arm length of paperwork and permits. If I were to purchase a property yes then I assume the liability. I also was informed years ago about this property that once we altered it buy fencing we then become liable for it. These holes and tunnels are over a century old. Soooo Don't you at least feel sorry for me ?? :cry2:

Happy Huntin John B.

I actually did feel a little bit of pity for an instant. But it went away pretty quick.:)

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10 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

If you claim an existing mine you are accepting responsibility for the hazards. 

It is a cruel and unfair world. But that is the way it works.

If you don't want the responsibility or the liability then don't lay claim to it. Then the responsibility and liability belongs to the BLM.

There are lots of hazards in a mining area. Anyone who thinks the BLM or the State is obligated to fence those hazards is living in a fantasy world. And anyone who thinks that a claimant does not assume the liability when they assume control of the claim is equally naieve.

BLM is very clear about this. And so is State law.

BLM has had a program to fence and fill old workings for at least 20 years. They get money to do this periodically. They are constantly surveying and prioritizing hazards and they address them as funding becomes available. But they simply can't address every hole out there.

They expect claim owners to accept responsibility for hazards on their claims just like they expect the public to not drive their jeeps into holes. I personally don't see that as too much to ask. 

If erecting a fence is too much effort to expend then the claim is probably not that valuable anyway. A claimant is supposed to do assessment work to hold the claim and if a fence is too much then the other work on that claim is probably not getting done either.

If you want to hold mineral rights to a piece of public land with hazards created by previous mining operations you need to factor in assuming that liability. It is no different in any business or any property. Im not sure why it should be different with a mining claim. 

OMG .... Spoken like a politician. Deflect any and all responsibility while crying poverty. 

Can't wait to get to New Mexico and high grade state land there, as lazy as you folks are, I'm gonna take away BANK ... 

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6 hours ago, chrisski said:

Very little of the public lands and n AZ have mineral claims, at least percentage wise looking at a map.  In my county and surrounding counties, except for one little area, all the BLM land has a grazing allotment on it.

 

Should the ranchers share in this responsibility?  
 

Sure not the shafts, but what happens if the creek washes out a trail and my 8k lbs truck is stuck?  Should the ranchers and if it is claimed, the claim owner share the responsibility to get me out?

 

I hope not.  I assume responsibility to go on public land.  If they are responsible, the BLM can bar entry as we’ve seen with dozens of TMPs.

I own almost 100 acres in northern Arizona, the county sends me a TAX bill every year, which is supposed to cover access to my property (as well as the other land owners in the area). Guess what?!!! The road access is only good for maybe a couple hundred yards off the main highway access, then it's a big ass sign "Primitive Roads" use at your own risk!!! 

The BLM open graze land where I'm at was snatched up by the state years back in order to extort money from the ranchers. What was once open BLM land surrounding my property is now State Land Trust. 

LEECHES, all of them!

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18 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I actually did feel a little bit of pity for an instant. But it went away pretty quick.:)

It's amazing how that can happen. 
Seriously, barbed wire and fence posts have been involved in many serious injuries and even deaths over the years. They can't do it by themselves however. They need help. The problems arise when humans (or animals) interact with them. More than one snowmobiler has been decapitated by running through a barbed wire fence. 

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2 hours ago, Dakota Slim said:

It's amazing how that can happen. 
Seriously, barbed wire and fence posts have been involved in many serious injuries and even deaths over the years. They can't do it by themselves however. They need help. The problems arise when humans (or animals) interact with them. More than one snowmobiler has been decapitated by running through a barbed wire fence. 

:idunno:

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6 hours ago, Dakota Slim said:

It's amazing how that can happen. 
Seriously, barbed wire and fence posts have been involved in many serious injuries and even deaths over the years. They can't do it by themselves however. They need help. The problems arise when humans (or animals) interact with them. More than one snowmobiler has been decapitated by running through a barbed wire fence. 

Never lost any livestock to a mine shaft, I'm sure it happens but never on my watch.

On the other hand I lost two fine horses in a year to old t-posts. Lost one when I was kid to a gopher hole.

Lot's of stuff out there to hurt you if you aren't paying attention. I don't really see a difference between an ATV  rider falling in a mining pit or shaft and the same rider falling off a steep bank or into a sinkhole. It's up to the adventurer to look where they are going from my point of view. Common sense will inform the thinking person that they should look before they leap.

The BLM has access to the 2.5 billion dollar AML mining reclamation fund. A friend of mine contracts with them to close shafts and adits to prevent environmental damage. There are no funds or any duty for the BLM or Forest Service to protect public safety in areas that have not been developed. Their primary duty is to protect the surface resources they are charged with maintaining.

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On 12/23/2020 at 12:05 PM, Dakota Slim said:

 Seriously, barbed wire and fence posts have been involved in many serious injuries and even deaths over the years. 

I hear ya man.   Yesterday I climbed over a barbed wire fence. I got to the top with one leg over each side, achieving that perfect balance. I sat there for

a minute to think about the predicament I was in. Looking down at the 1-1/2 foot fall was more than my mind could take. Not something I`d want to experience again.

I`m glad you highlighted the dangers of this hobby.

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Barbed wire fences terrify me too Slim. All those sharp little barbs on that wire could poke you. 

You could sustain a serious cut from that wire as you fall down into a mine shaft. Or worse yet be decapitated if the wire happens to get wrapped around your neck while falling. 

Maybe we should propose a law to eliminate fencing all together. At least make them take all the little barbs off the wire and grind the sharp edges off those metal tee poles.

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BLM and Forest Circus are already implementing a wire rule. We have built about 5 miles of new fence the last 2 years and right now they require us to use barbless wire on the bottom strand for the antelope. The one BLM geek that came out to our last project to inspect it said here in the next 2 years or so, barbed wire will not be allowed on BLM land. Any new fence will be required to be barbless.

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20 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

BLM and Forest Circus are already implementing a wire rule. We have built about 5 miles of new fence the last 2 years and right now they require us to use barbless wire on the bottom strand for the antelope. The one BLM geek that came out to our last project to inspect it said here in the next 2 years or so, barbed wire will not be allowed on BLM land. Any new fence will be required to be barbless.

There are lots of fences now days that don't have that bottom strand at all. Just the top two. The antelope love it. 

There has been conflict over fences in the West since the end of the open range days. There are very good arguments on both sides of that issue. 

Do cattle really need that bottom strand to keep them from grazing under the fence? Would a smooth wire do just as much as a barbed strand on the bottom? 

It is a lot easier than teaching antelope to jump.

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Thought I would post these two articles I came across recently. Somewhat related to the topic at hand. A lot to think about when owning a mining claim.

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/12/27/21575958/abandoned-mines-and-the-varied-ways-utah-works-to-close-them

https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/12/27/21551667/the-pitfalls-of-owning-old-mining-sites-in-salt-lakes-wasatch-canyons

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6 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

There are lots of fences now days that don't have that bottom strand at all. Just the top two. The antelope love it. 

There has been conflict over fences in the West since the end of the open range days. There are very good arguments on both sides of that issue. 

Do cattle really need that bottom strand to keep them from grazing under the fence? Would a smooth wire do just as much as a barbed strand on the bottom? 

It is a lot easier than teaching antelope to jump.

I will use barbless for the whole fence. I can care less. I was just stating a fact for the barbed wire discussion going on up above. The cows dont care either way, a fence is a fence. Barbed wire just keeps them from rubbing against it too hard and knocking it over.

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3 hours ago, nugget108 said:

I will use barbless for the whole fence. I can care less. I was just stating a fact for the barbed wire discussion going on up above. The cows dont care either way, a fence is a fence. Barbed wire just keeps them from rubbing against it too hard and knocking it over.

I understand that. 

Some fellows insist if the bottom strand does not have barbs the cattle graze under it and pull it up. That has been the main objection to using barbless.

The same with omitting the bottom strand. Some ranchers raise heck about it. They say it causes more fence repair and they chase more cattle.

Since you had some experience with it I thought I would ask your opinion.

 

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