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Hey guys new here and have a question? Hematite? Meteorite?


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Thanks Nugget108. No problem here. Looking forward to learning and enjoying the forum. I really do appreciate all the help. I hold no ill feelings toward anyone. Life is too short and I have been blessed more than I deserve. Just have a big puzzle on my hands when it comes to these rocks. I don't disagree with 99% of observations so far stated by those who posted. All they have is a couple of photos and my opinion. I won't always understand and may disagree but I will respect their knowledge and experience.

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That's the right idea, noticing a rock different then the rest, but in general most meteorites will pull towards the magnet, and don't usually find them round. I think you have some native earth rock

Lunk, I tend to agree and without boring you and others during the holidays with the research I have done, I will cut to the chase. I believe the small round concretions that I have are Goethite Concr

There was no sarcasm in my post.  It was negative only in that it wasn't affirmative.

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4 hours ago, donkemp said:

Bedrock Bob, your comments about Mike "picking on people, bursting people's inflated bubble, not being able to sleep at night, etc." is exactly the type of comment that doesn't belong here. It only serves to demean others. I never said my rocks came from Mars and Morlock's comment was, "99.99999999999% these are terrestrial rocks". He didn't differentiate between the two pics. I think he just didn't see the second pic identified as lunar.  Also,thank you for speaking for Mikestang. To set set your mind at ease, I accept Mikestangs statement that he wasn't being sarcastic. My apologies Mikestang, I never felt you were picking on me at all. After retiring with thirty-two years in law enforcement my skin is too thick to think that. I never said anyone was mean spirited. Seems like I have touched a nerve with Bedrock Bob about reviewing post that seemed to be negative by a few people that post here on a regular basic. Perhaps it is easier to see those negative comments when someone has newly joined this forum or I could simply be wrong. I will accept the latter and try to learn in spite of myself. I value opinions, whether I agree or not. I do not have many answers about my rocks, except what I have read and test results I requested. I wish I knew but no one so far has an answer. This is a great forum but with comments like Bedrock Bob made I will be less likely to ask questions and discuss topics in the future. I too, have opinions. If I disagree or say something you don't agree with and receive answers like that I certainly won't pay attention in the future. 

So show us a streak. And a window. Prove it is not garden variety hematite.

I'm not picking on you. That is the process for identification. Show us something that indicates a meteorite by doing the basic field tests.

Is that really too much to ask?

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Not at all Bob. I can provide that but don't have a window right now. I do have a cut piece I will try to download and other pics as well. I never said you were picking on me. Just thought your comment was out of line. Water under the bridge. I am not disagreeing that the small round rocks might well not be a meteorite. Just that this was a witnessed fall with other reports from five different states reported to AMS. Several different facts developed over the first year show that this material should not and has never been in the fall location. I also have pick of thin section taken with my phone through a microscope. Not the best quality but I will post if it would help.132.JPG

Kemp Rock #4.png

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One additional puzzle to my rocks is an experiment I did with my rocks and rocks from a roadway near where I was living. I used a torch to try and melt each test sample. The results was that my rock sample turned white hot, did not melt and retained its form upon cooling. The rock from the roadway completely disintegrated into powder and small particles. I took a larger rock from my collection to a friend who tried to melt it with a welding torch. It also became white hot and melted a small section on one side but maintained its form. One video shows me trying to melt a small rock with a hand held torch. Notice how the small rock, after a few seconds jumps like a jumping bean and some of the outer surface cracks or breaks off. I have no explanation for this so any thoughts on that would help. I continue to heat the rock until white hot and it maintained its form. The second video is two or three larger rocks that I took to a friends shop who has a cutting torch he used to try and melt the rocks. As the video shows it was almost the same results, except for surface melting and a glassy look when it cooled down. Again, these rocks maintained their form. One of the larger rocks did flame up unlike the other two larger rocks I torched. I think this was a result of something from his shop that got on the rock before the test. I have used cutting torches on steel and iron before and actually thought the torch would melt my rock samples with no problem. I supposed you could raise the temp to such a high degree that it would melt a meteorite but I don't know what that level would be to change a meteorites form. I would think the melting point of a meteorite would similar to that of steel, depending on the amount of carbon in the steel.  I would be curious as to thoughts on what a torch would do to a known sample of hematite. If the consensus is the torch should melt or otherwise change the form of a hematite nodule then perhaps my rock nodules are not hematite. If that is the case it still doesn't explain where my small nodule like rocks came from. Thanks for any help.

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It looks like garden variety hematite to me. Nothing you have posted would indicate otherwise. Nothing you have posted would point to it being a meteorite.

My personal opinion is that it is terrestrial iron. It is obviously oxidized iron ore and not meteoritic.

:idunno:

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I'm by no means an expert on the chemical composition of meteorites, but from what I've read about the subject in O. Richard Norton's “Field Guide to Meteors and Meteorites”, Appendix 1, the lack of calcium, magnesium, potassium and sodium in the university lab analysis does not bode well for a stony meteorite; unless, of course, the analysis did not test for these elements. As for an iron meteorite, the outer surface and cut surface of your specimens do not resemble any irons that I have handled or seen photos of, and a recent fall would be in pristine condition. If you suspect your rocks to be iron meteorites, I would suggest doing an acid etch to see if it reveals a Widmanstätten pattern: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Widmanstätten_pattern

Edited by Lunk
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Lunk, I tend to agree and without boring you and others during the holidays with the research I have done, I will cut to the chase. I believe the small round concretions that I have are Goethite Concreations. My simple understanding is that over a period of time Goethite, for lack of geological terms, sometime turns into hematite. My reason for saying that is a large portion of my samples were found in a drainage ditch next to a turn row, in a corn field. The man who has farmed this property for over twenty-five years and another farmer about one mile away who found some of the same material, both say they have never seen these rocks in their respective fields. This drainage ditch has water in it during the rainy seasons and drys up during the summer. The land owner cleans out the ditch periodically and had a trackhoe dig out the ditch several months before I found my samples there. So, I know the rocks were not there in the ditch and turnroe before this event occurred. I have found research that indicates that Goethite and Hematite Concretions , have been found on Mars and the Moon, reportedly in abundance. I am not saying that what I have comes from either one but I have to consider it based on what I know from statements of the land owners and the witness that say this stuff fall. I am going to continue to research and reach out to others here for information for sure. Besides learning a lot, it's the most fun an old man can have these days. I will leave this here until after the holidays. I wish everyone Merry Christmas with God's blessing this season and the year beyond.

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On the premise that these rocks came from the same fall and therefore the same mass.  Shouldn't the test analysis be more similar between the samples?

....and who wrote "Gu" as the atomic symbol for gold?  lol

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The hematite nodules discovered on Mars were all smaller than 6.2 mm (less than a quarter inch). They estimate the hematite was formed more than 4 billion years ago when mars still had some water. The concretions found there are made of very fine material and have no internal structure. Mars is red because of the hematite dust on the surface.

This is what a martian hematite spherule looks like. They are all smooth.

F2.png

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Luke, I would think so to some degree. In all three samples there are some similarities but I wouldn't think they would be the same. I suppose it would depend on where these come from and if terrestrial what the soil composition. Someone above my paygrade will have to help us out on that. Knowing what I know of the people involved and what they said, I have no doubt that all of this material is from the same fall. This stuff fell in a muddy field after crops were harvested. Some rocks were lying on top of the ground, stuck in mud somewhat, while other rocks landed in the ditch that had been cleaned out a few months before the event. One thing I have read several times is that Hematite Creations develop on long periods of time through a process that is time consuming. If you could have walked out in this field as I did and looked as I did, you would know without question this material was freshly fallen from the way it lay in and on top of the ground. There were no craters or anything like that but being an old country boy, I know a fresh track when I see it. The land owner also saw this and agreed it had not been in his field. He is a banker and has employees do the actual work in the field but he walks it and tends to it on a regular basis. He did ask the employees and none of them have ever noticed this material in the field. This material just stood out and no other rocks were even seen by me the first few times I collected material. I did find less than dozen gravel rocks scattered.

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30 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

....and who wrote "Gu" as the atomic symbol for gold?  lol

Gu is the symbol for Goofinium. It's a transitional element that sits between Plutonium and Americum on the periodic chart. I'm pretty sure it was named after a dog - kinda like Pluto but more Goofy.

 

Do they have a sense of humor at University of Louisiana?

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Clay, I think my rocks are Goethite or Hematite as others here have already mentioned. Just trying to figure out how they got here based on what I know so far. Everything points to the probability that they should not be here. Could be a question I may never answer. My background is Law Enforcement. Retired for twenty years now but almost half of my career was investigations as a detective. I try to be factual as possible and was considered to be very thorough. The witness to this fall is a lifelong friend and some of description he gave doesn't add up. Some of his statements are spot on as to what someone should see during a fall. My experience tells me this is a good witness given that he knew nothing about meteorite fall or meteorites at the time. If he had told me exactly what one usually sees when there is a meteorite fall, then I would be highly skeptical. Check out AMS event 611 dated September 28th,2010. That is the reported event for this fall. AMS path shows a line coming within 60-80 miles of where I picked up my samples and the witness observed the fall. The witness said he seen one rock hit the ground and bounce up. After research, I was skeptical or that actually happening but that's what he said. I believe what he saw was a rock hitting a ditch full of water and the water splashing up. It had rained for two days prior to this event so the ditch was full of water. The bottom line for me, if this is meteorite material, what is the origin. If not a meteorite, where did it come from and how did it get there. I grew up in the area of this fall. In fact as a young boy I picked cotton in this same field. I have never seen this type of material in any field from that area and that goes back over seventy five years.

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I am rolling on the floor laughing. Luke and Clay, that Goof was me before I knew how to spell meteorite. I hope everyone else here gets as good a laugh as I did. I have never noticed that before. I would like to blame ULM but can't bring myself to do it. Heck, I might change my screen name to "GoldGu".

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2 hours ago, donkemp said:

Lunk, I tend to agree and without boring you and others during the holidays with the research I have done, I will cut to the chase. I believe the small round concretions that I have are Goethite Concreations. My simple understanding is that over a period of time Goethite, for lack of geological terms, sometime turns into hematite. My reason for saying that is a large portion of my samples were found in a drainage ditch next to a turn row, in a corn field. The man who has farmed this property for over twenty-five years and another farmer about one mile away who found some of the same material, both say they have never seen these rocks in their respective fields. This drainage ditch has water in it during the rainy seasons and drys up during the summer. The land owner cleans out the ditch periodically and had a trackhoe dig out the ditch several months before I found my samples there. So, I know the rocks were not there in the ditch and turnroe before this event occurred. I have found research that indicates that Goethite and Hematite Concretions , have been found on Mars and the Moon, reportedly in abundance. I am not saying that what I have comes from either one but I have to consider it based on what I know from statements of the land owners and the witness that say this stuff fall. I am going to continue to research and reach out to others here for information for sure. Besides learning a lot, it's the most fun an old man can have these days. I will leave this here until after the holidays. I wish everyone Merry Christmas with God's blessing this season and the year beyond.

https://sites.wustl.edu/meteoritesite/items/what_to_do/

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1 hour ago, donkemp said:

Luke, I would think so to some degree. In all three samples there are some similarities but I wouldn't think they would be the same. I suppose it would depend on where these come from and if terrestrial what the soil composition. Someone above my paygrade will have to help us out on that. Knowing what I know of the people involved and what they said, I have no doubt that all of this material is from the same fall. This stuff fell in a muddy field after crops were harvested. Some rocks were lying on top of the ground, stuck in mud somewhat, while other rocks landed in the ditch that had been cleaned out a few months before the event. One thing I have read several times is that Hematite Creations develop on long periods of time through a process that is time consuming. If you could have walked out in this field as I did and looked as I did, you would know without question this material was freshly fallen from the way it lay in and on top of the ground. There were no craters or anything like that but being an old country boy, I know a fresh track when I see it. The land owner also saw this and agreed it had not been in his field. He is a banker and has employees do the actual work in the field but he walks it and tends to it on a regular basis. He did ask the employees and none of them have ever noticed this material in the field. This material just stood out and no other rocks were even seen by me the first few times I collected material. I did find less than dozen gravel rocks scattered.

With the wide variances in those results, what about the results lends those samples to being meteoric?

The sample on the left, is 12% iron and 'negligible' amounts of everything else.  Roughly composed of 87% of what?

The sample on the right, is 10% iron and almost 10% manganese.  No manganese was detected in the other sample.  Very few of the other numbers are close to each other.  I guess I don't understand what makes them so similar.  Other than they were found/left in the same place.

Those results look 'slaggy' to me.  But I don't know anything about slag, so it's tough to say.

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Luke, I honestly don't know how to figure % amount from these test and really haven't thought of it that way so I have no thoughts on what that means. I will I will do some research on that and see. I do know there were no industrial sites, welding shop or anything else in the area that might produce industrial slag since I was a child and beyond. I am not sure that slag would possibly test the same as my samples. I have found information that says since meteorites are formed through a variety of processes on many different planetary bodies, they can have substantially different physical and chemical properties. I just don't have enough lab results at this point to seriously consider my rocks as meteorites. I have what I was told and the physical samples I collected. I tend to believe all the material I collected came from the same place as opposed from different bodies. I need to find my other test information to get the amount of nickel found in that sample. From what I have here ULM indicated Iron, not Ferrous iron(Fe203). Naturally occurring terrestrial rocks rarely contain iron metal or iron-nickel metal so where does that put my rocks that contain Iron? I don't know but I have to consider if the information on Iron is true then my rocks are not terrestrial. I also know that platinum is very rare in terrestrial rocks since so little of it is found or mined. My samples tested positive for platinum. The same can be said for Gold which is a rare earth element. I know there are five important minerals to look for in Mars meteorites. (1)Phyllosilicates-Hydrated silicate minerals: (2)Carbonates-minerals that precipitated from water; (3) Hematite-iron oxide mineral formed by precipitation from water; (4) Olivine-mafic mineral susceptible to weathering in the presence of water; (5) Pyroxcene-mafic mineral susceptible to weathering in the presence of water. You can see why I need more testing and answers. This will take a little longer but to better understand where I am coming from or find other answers, is needed. Phyllosilicates are hydrated silicate minerals evidence of aqueous alteration processes. My rocks contain silica, but so does many earth rocks, but this material alteration did not occur over a period of time with my rocks. Phyllosilicates are found over a wide range on the surface. While my rocks were on the surface they were not found over a wide range as far as I know at this point. Some of the same material was found almost a mile away by another farmer. Carbonates give evidence of possible hydrothermal activity. I have found no evidence of hydrothermal activity at this fall location of in the area. This includes my speaking with some of the most knowledgeable geologist in Louisiana. Olivine and Pyroxcene is mafic minerals formed during the crystallization of lava/magma. I am not an expert but have been told my rocks give the appearance of mafic minerals or volcanic. There have been no research found by geologists of recorded volcanoes in Louisiana. I know there are many different minerals found in meteorites that are also found in terrestrial rocks. This doesn't surprise me but the above minerals are listed as important minerals in mars rocks. Again, not saying my rocks are from mars but they help point out that my rocks don't belong on the ground in North Louisiana. I have look at so much information in the past ten years that it numbers into the thousands of pages. I certainly can't retain most of it but there is many points that point positive in favor of this being a valid fall. I continue to look and find answers. I am not looking to prove these are meteorites per say but just stating what I have found. That's why I am here to learn from others. It is what it is. 

 

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You do not have meteoritic iron. Meteoritic iron is free metallic iron. 

You have oxidized terrestrial iron. Whether it is classified as goethite, hematite or limonite is irrelevant in the investigation. Those forms of iron are terrestrial and not meteoritic. 

If your investigation is directed at finding out what mineral you have then by all means carry on. If your invesigation is to determine if these stones are meteoritic you already have definitive evidence to arrive at your answer.

If iron in your samples are oxidized they are not meteoritic. Iron in meteorites exists as free metallic iron. So with that simple observation we can say with very high confidence that these are not meteorites. It would be (nearly) physically impossible for mineral iron to exist in an environment without oxygen. Just as it is (nearly) physically impossible for naturally formed free metallic iron to exist on earth.

Them's the facts my friend. The truth and nothing but the truth. You have a terrestrial stone and the physical state of the iron proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. 

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On 12/23/2020 at 5:03 PM, donkemp said:

Bedrock Bob, your comments about Mike "picking on people, bursting people's inflated bubble, not being able to sleep at night, etc." is exactly the type of comment that doesn't belong here. It only serves to demean others. I never said my rocks came from Mars and Morlock's comment was, "99.99999999999% these are terrestrial rocks". He didn't differentiate between the two pics. I think he just didn't see the second pic identified as lunar.  Also,thank you for speaking for Mikestang. To set set your mind at ease, I accept Mikestangs statement that he wasn't being sarcastic. My apologies Mikestang, I never felt you were picking on me at all. After retiring with thirty-two years in law enforcement my skin is too thick to think that. I never said anyone was mean spirited. Seems like I have touched a nerve with Bedrock Bob about reviewing post that seemed to be negative by a few people that post here on a regular basic. Perhaps it is easier to see those negative comments when someone has newly joined this forum or I could simply be wrong. I will accept the latter and try to learn in spite of myself. I value opinions, whether I agree or not. I do not have many answers about my rocks, except what I have read and test results I requested. I wish I knew but no one so far has an answer. This is a great forum but with comments like Bedrock Bob made I will be less likely to ask questions and discuss topics in the future. I too, have opinions. If I disagree or say something you don't agree with and receive answers like that I certainly won't pay attention in the future. 

 

On 12/23/2020 at 5:03 PM, donkemp said:

Bedrock Bob, your comments about Mike "picking on people, bursting people's inflated bubble, not being able to sleep at night, etc." is exactly the type of comment that doesn't belong here. It only serves to demean others. I never said my rocks came from Mars and Morlock's comment was, "99.99999999999% these are terrestrial rocks". He didn't differentiate between the two pics. I think he just didn't see the second pic identified as lunar.  Also,thank you for speaking for Mikestang. To set set your mind at ease, I accept Mikestangs statement that he wasn't being sarcastic. My apologies Mikestang, I never felt you were picking on me at all. After retiring with thirty-two years in law enforcement my skin is too thick to think that. I never said anyone was mean spirited. Seems like I have touched a nerve with Bedrock Bob about reviewing post that seemed to be negative by a few people that post here on a regular basic. Perhaps it is easier to see those negative comments when someone has newly joined this forum or I could simply be wrong. I will accept the latter and try to learn in spite of myself. I value opinions, whether I agree or not. I do not have many answers about my rocks, except what I have read and test results I requested. I wish I knew but no one so far has an answer. This is a great forum but with comments like Bedrock Bob made I will be less likely to ask questions and discuss topics in the future. I too, have opinions. If I disagree or say something you don't agree with and receive answers like that I certainly won't pay attention in the future. 

Good luck Don, you will certainly need a thick skin. I hope you are able to persevere despite the perception of negatively and ultimately find it worth the effort.

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Bob, it may well be terrestrial and I thank you for your input. I would not argue that it contains iron or ferrous iron. The lab report indicates such is the case. For the life of me I can't understand how you know it is terrestrial rather than extraterrestrial with what I have. Both have iron and ferrous iron as you know. I do have an eye witness and land owner witnesses that know this material does not belong in that field and has never before been seen there until the witness brought it to my attention. If it is terrestrial, please venture to tell me how it got there. I have no clue. I only can rely on what I know. I am very familiar with the land and surrounding area for miles. I worked those fields and have never seen anything remotely like that in any field. Most geologist would be able to tell me a general area this material came from or should have been located. Some, in fact did. Some said it was from volcanoes. Another said from the ocean floor, but none said this material came or was formed in North Louisiana or agreed that it should even be there. Would you agree that Hematite takes many many years to form creations? If so then it didn't form there over thousands or hundreds of years. The material was too fresh with little time to have weathering, at least here on Earth. If you disagree on many years to form Hematite creations then you go against years of research that says different. I absolutely know a fresh track when I see it. Especially after rain in the muddy ground. I was in that field a little over a month after the witness saw it fall. The ditch some of this material was collected had been cleaned out by a trackhoe a few months before the event. The material from that cleaning was hauled away and not deposited on the side of the ditch. The material I collected had to have come from the sky. How is was formed with physical evidence as being terrestrial or extraterrestrial then fell to the ground at this location is my problem. To be fair and informative I need time, to explain what the witness saw and other information I have. I hope you understand where I am coming from and certainly understand how and why your opinion differs. Isn't that great, finally a place were two people or more can have a difference of opinion and it not be political. America still has a chance. I honestly just want to find out the truth of the matter. Thanks again for your expertise and look forward to more. Have a great Christmas man.

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I think I need to clear up one point that I made after rereading my post. I know that ironstone is found in the ground and soil in North Louisiana. There is no denying that fact and it is very much terrestrial. When I speak of rocks found in the area I am speaking of what I saw at the site in that field. I walked the curtilage of all the fields in the immediately area and found no rocks that resembled mine. All of the fields in that area are freshly farmed and the crops were harvested, disk and plowed under. The rocks were visible in the ditch and turnrows. I did find several out in the plowed field but a lot harder to locate.

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The difference is free metallic iron and mineral iron. Your sample is obviously mineral. That type of iron just does not form in space or on other planets because there is no oxigen to create it. Iron from space is metallic iron. Like steel. Not mineral iron like yours.

It is the very first basic test that all meteorites (containing iron) must pass.

This is how I can tell from your photos -

I see mineral iron. I do not see metallic iron. So the determination is just as simple as that. If there was iron in free metallic form there would be room for doubt. But there is not. There is mineral iron here and that just does not happen outside of our atmosphere.

I can't explain how these rocks got in that field. That is not something I care to hypothesize upon. I can however say with 100% confidence that they did not come through the atmosphere and they were formed on this planet. There is visual proof of both clearly shown in the photos.

Merry Christmas to you as well! And a very prosperous New Year.

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