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Who else shoots black powder?

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Yo. 50 cal T/C Encore. Leupold 1.5X4 scope. Some rifles will drive tacks. This one drives railroad spikes.

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News Flash!   

You are not allowed to say Black Powder anymore

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Yo. 50 cal T/C Encore. Leupold 1.5X4 scope. Some rifles will drive tacks. This one drives railroad spikes.

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Dang,  No wonder you had to wear a brace on your hand for that long of a time. Cannons are supposed to be fired from fixed emplacements ! :th:Don't you suppose those old buffalo hunters that fired  them all day were man mountains?  I once had a chance to fire a 50 .cal at a range one time , I saw what happened to the guy in in line ahead of me and chickened out of my shot ! I had shot my grandpa's 10 Ga. shotgun one time when he was gone off some wheres, I had orders to never touch it but you know how that goes with a 10 year old kid, I probably weighed 70 pounds at the time. I didn't shot another shot gun until  was about 18 and weighed  110 pounds. When I went to bootcamp that same year we trained with the old WW2 Springfields and they kicked my skinny *** too. 

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1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Yo. 50 cal T/C Encore. Leupold 1.5X4 scope. Some rifles will drive tacks. This one drives railroad spikes.

DSCN0724.JPG

What projo and powder load works best? What's the barrel twist?

I volunteer as a hunting guide for wounded warriors. Fellow I mentored had same setup, Bob, but he never shot past 100 yrds

I convinced him he needed 3-4" groups at 200. It took a couple days but he got sighted in

 He ended up taking his elk at 226 yards, 45 sabots, don't recall the charge. He lunged him first shot.

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I've acquired several BP arms but all repros. I have the .36 Navy revolver and the Remington .44. I've been getting better with the .50 T C Renegade but just purchased a .54 T C Hawken.

I put an enclosed ignition system on the Renegade will do the same on the Hawken. I've never had a misfire with the shotgun primers. 

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This is a custom .54 caliber built by forum member wet/dry washer. It was gifted to me a few months ago when he left for socal. He said he built it for cross stick shooting...and it is hefty with a capital H. He told me that it shot extremely well with just a patched .53 ball. I have not shot it and probably won't till the weather cools. ol' bob was an excellent machinist and made the majority of it himself, including the barrel. The silver needs a good polish...but this boomstick is a work of art.

 

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9 hours ago, Edge said:

What projo and powder load works best? What's the barrel twist?

I volunteer as a hunting guide for wounded warriors. Fellow I mentored had same setup, Bob, but he never shot past 100 yrds

I convinced him he needed 3-4" groups at 200. It took a couple days but he got sighted in

 He ended up taking his elk at 226 yards, 45 sabots, don't recall the charge. He lunged him first shot.

It shoots anything well. 

I like Hornandy 250 grain FTX bullets in a Harvester crush rib sabots. 452 dia bullets. It shoots Pyrodex RS or Blackhorn 209 equally well. 

No problem getting 4" at 200 yards. My son shot a nice buck last year at 225 yards with a lot less rifle. He got a perfect heart shot and the bullet passed all the way through and out the other side.

I would feel confident out to 200.The pattern is about the same at 200 as it is at 100.

It does not shoot TC sabots well. They are just too small and do not engage the rifling. But Harvester makes the stuff you need to make them shoot well. 

The only rifle bullet in .45 available in bulk is the FTX in .452 diameter. Otherwise you have to go .44 or .456. Or buy really expensive bullets. 

Regular Hornandy XTP pistol bullets in .430 are great out to 100 yards. They aren't long range bullets though. 

Here are the pistol bullets at 100 yards over 60 hrs. Blackhorn. The rifle bullet pattern is a little tighter just because they are a little more concentric and a bit longer ogive.

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Blackhorn is expensive stuff. You can shoot 20 or more shots without patching and clean the gun with 3-4 patches. But Pyrodex is just as accurate patching between shots.

I think the big .456 bullets have the best accuracy and energy potential. Harvester makes sabots that will handle the long bullets. If I was shooting over 200 yards that is the way I would go. Especially with elk. The trajectory would suck but the end result would be better.

 

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26 minutes ago, Sonoran Dave said:

This is a custom .54 caliber built by forum member wet/dry washer. It was gifted to me a few months ago when he left for socal. He said he built it for cross stick shooting...and it is hefty with a capital H. He told me that it shot extremely well with just a patched .53 ball. I have not shot it and probably won't till the weather cools. ol' bob was an excellent machinist and made the majority of it himself, including the barrel. The silver needs a good polish...but this boomstick is a work of art.

 

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20200629_054046.jpg

Holy crap what a beauty. That tiger maple puts the OW back in MEOW.

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Shotgun primers suck for accuracy. They are just too hot and cause the projectile to "jump" off the powder charge before it ignites. 

I use a 209 muzzle loader primer that is toned down for inline rifles. They make special small orifice breach plugs that help. And even breech plugs that use pistol primers. If you want top notch accuracy stay away from shotgun primers. Especially magnum primers.

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7 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

It shoots anything well. 

I like Hornandy 250 grain FTX bullets in a Harvester crush rib sabots. 452 dia bullets. It shoots Pyrodex RS or Blackhorn 209 equally well. 

No problem getting 4" at 200 yards. My son shot a nice buck last year at 225 yards with a lot less rifle. He got a perfect heart shot and the bullet passed all the way through and out the other side.

I would feel confident out to 200.The pattern is about the same at 200 as it is at 100.

It does not shoot TC sabots well. They are just too small and do not engage the rifling. But Harvester makes the stuff you need to make them shoot well. 

The only rifle bullet in .45 available in bulk is the FTX in .452 diameter. Otherwise you have to go .44 or .456. Or buy really expensive bullets. 

Regular Hornandy XTP pistol bullets in .430 are great out to 100 yards. They aren't long range bullets though. 

Here are the pistol bullets at 100 yards over 60 hrs. Blackhorn. The rifle bullet pattern is a little tighter just because they are a little more concentric and a bit longer ogive.

20200629_071916.jpg

Blackhorn is expensive stuff. You can shoot 20 or more shots without patching and clean the gun with 3-4 patches. But Pyrodex is just as accurate patching between shots.

I think the big .456 bullets have the best accuracy and energy potential. Harvester makes sabots that will handle the long bullets. If I was shooting over 200 yards that is the way I would go. Especially with elk. The trajectory would suck but the end result would be better.

 

I'm thinking you have a faster twist than my T Cs.

1:48 is not a great compromise, I'm already looking at replacements. Would be nice to get a good spin on a conical, but the balls are so cheap and I might like to mold my own. I'm seeing different barrels are pretty inexpensive. May need two and a smooth bore

 

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9 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Shotgun primers suck for accuracy. They are just too hot and cause the projectile to "jump" off the powder charge before it ignites. 

I use a 209 muzzle loader primer that is toned down for inline rifles. They make special small orifice breach plugs that help. And even breech plugs that use pistol primers. If you want top notch accuracy stay away from shotgun primers. Especially magnum primers.

I'll have to test the difference. I know I shoot 209s. It's hard to imagine a Powerbelt round moving from a primer ignition but I'm often surprised.

You still haven't mentioned the twist on your TC.

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9 minutes ago, Edge said:

I'll have to test the difference. I know I shoot 209s. It's hard to imagine a Powerbelt round moving from a primer ignition but I'm often surprised.

You still haven't mentioned the twist on your TC.

A Powerbelt will go about a foot down the barrel without any powder at all. Try it!

Then compare the accuracy between a 209 shotgun primer and a 209 muzzleloader primer. You will be convinced. A small pistol primer is even better. So is a small orifice breech plug.

Blackhorn is a bit different. It is hard to ignite. They recommend a regular shotgun primer. So it all depends on your choice of propellant. Also what type of sabot. Or lack thereof.

The twist for round balls is much less than saboted bullets. My gun won't shoot balls well. And a barrel designed for balls won't shoot sabots well.

I am not sure what the twist is but it is MUCH less than barrels designed for a ball. Im thinking 1:24 but I am not sure about that. 

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That is correct, regular shotgun 209 primers are very inconsistent. I shoot the muzzleloader 209 primers by Triple 7. Very consistent and reliable, just a little more spendy is all.

20200629_071219.jpg

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27 minutes ago, Edge said:

I'm thinking you have a faster twist than my T Cs.

1:48 is not a great compromise, I'm already looking at replacements. Would be nice to get a good spin on a conical, but the balls are so cheap and I might like to mold my own. I'm seeing different barrels are pretty inexpensive. May need two and a smooth bore

 

Get a .456 mold and some Harvester sabots if you want to shoot cast projectiles. 

I shoot cast .44 and .45 but find the cast bullets are just not as accurate. Once you get the temperature perfect and all the bullets are coming out the right size things get better. But I have not had good accuracy with cast.

The heavier and longer .456 will be easier to cast and have less variance. They are twice as big so your variance makes half as much difference. 

They will kick the everlivin crap out of you but will land in the same spot.

Just my two cents. 

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4 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

That is correct, regular shotgun 209 primers are very inconsistent. I shoot the muzzleloader 209 primers by Triple 7. Very consistent and reliable, just a little more spendy is all.

20200629_071219.jpg

Have you had any luck with triple seven powder? 

When it came out everyone raved about it. I hate the stuff. It leaves the worst fouling and will screw up the skirts of the sabots trying to seat over it. I went through a couple pounds and just hated it. 

Some fellows seem to get it to work. But I went back to Pyrodex RS. 

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Bob,

I shoot the pellets and not the loose powder so im not sure about that. The pellets serve me very well actually. I can shoot 5 to 7 shots before it really gets hard to slam a round down the barrel. I use 2 pellets which is 100 grains and im pretty happy with the results. I know there are other options and combinations but i love the convenience in a hunting situation. I was shooting the green Aero tip powerbelts but my accuracy was all over the place. Which i believe was due to the built on sabot. Still pretty darn good though. Now i shoot a Barns all copper sabot.

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Blackhorn 209 is strange stuff. It is tubular. It gives it more surface area to burn faster. 

You can string it like beads.

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It is for the most part smokeless powder. It comes in "Ten ounce pounds". The can looks like a one pound can but there is only ten ounces in it. 

There is a special "equivalent" graduated measure. I weigh the stuff. I use 60 grains (which is roughly equivalent to an 85 grain charge). 250 gr. .452 Horandy FTX. Harvester red crush rib sabots. Winchester muzzleloader primers.

There is virtually zero powder fouling. It pits the nipple under the primer though. I had many hundreds of shots through the rifle and the nipple was perfect. After 60 shots using Blackhorn I had pretty bad erosion on the stainless nipple. And a little residue around the breech. 

I thought it might be a headspace issue. But I changed the nipple and went back to Pyrodex with no problems. So it seems to be the powder is pressuring up more and forcing gas out around the primer.

With my pet load you can shoot 100 yard groups pretty much touching. 1.5" center to center and very consistent over many shots. The pattern at 200 is almost identical. You can substitute the 60 grs. Blackhorn for 85 grs. Pyrodex RS and do exactly the same thing.

I put one wet patch and one dry patch between each shot when shooting Pyrodex. When shooting Blackhorn I have put 25 rounds downrange one right after the other with no change in seating pressure and no change in accuracy. I bet you could shoot 50 rounds and not have to patch it. 

The Blackhorn does not recoil as much. And the sound is different. And no smell. 

Using loads like these the gun is easy to shoot. Not much recoil at all. Certainly nowhere near a .270 or an '06. It is accurate and has plenty of energy out to 200 yards for deer. You can pour a lot more powder and increase the recoil to get a little more speed. But accuracy suffers and it costs a bunch more. And you don't get much more speed/distance.

If I were to hunt elk with it I think I would go with .456 bullets about 350-375 grs. Over a 90-95 gr. powder charge. I might increase the charge a bit depending on accuracy.

You can pour 150 grs. in this gun but I wouldn't shoot it. If you seated a 375 gr. projectile over a load like that it might give you a bloody nose. If you seated a 400 gr. bullet on that much powder it might take out your earliest memories. 

 

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4 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Get a .456 mold and some Harvester sabots if you want to shoot cast projectiles. 

I shoot cast .44 and .45 but find the cast bullets are just not as accurate. Once you get the temperature perfect and all the bullets are coming out the right size things get better. But I have not had good accuracy with cast.

The heavier and longer .456 will be easier to cast and have less variance. They are twice as big so your variance makes half as much difference. 

They will kick the everlivin crap out of you but will land in the same spot.

Just my two cents. 

I don't have a .45

I have a 50 and 54.

My 45 is the Remington 44

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24 minutes ago, Edge said:

I don't have a .45

I have a 50 and 54.

My 45 is the Remington 44

I have a .50. But I shoot .44, .45 and .456 caliber bullets. 

I shoot .50 dia. buffalo bullets once in a while. And Powerbelts once in a while. But saboted projectiles in a .502 bore is what I am referring to above.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I have a .50. But I shoot .44, .45 and .456 caliber bullets. 

I shoot .50 dia. buffalo bullets once in a while. And Powerbelts once in a while. But saboted projectiles in a .502 bore is what I am referring to above.

Ok gotcha.

Have never shot a sabot but I'll give it a try. 

Edited by Edge

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Since you guys are talking about powders and such. Any recommendations for the rifle I posted? Since he made it for patched balls, I assume it won't shoot conicals or sabots accurately because the twist is wrong?

I'm ok with round balls as they seem easier to make myself, but what about powders and charge size? It has the small percussion caps (FC), does that affect powder choice?

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1 hour ago, Sonoran Dave said:

Since you guys are talking about powders and such. Any recommendations for the rifle I posted? Since he made it for patched balls, I assume it won't shoot conicals or sabots accurately because the twist is wrong?

I'm ok with round balls as they seem easier to make myself, but what about powders and charge size? It has the small percussion caps (FC), does that affect powder choice?

You are correct about the twist. You should stick with balls. Conical bullets might shoot o.k. but you will have to experiment. 

Different diameter balls and varying thickness of patch material to get the right fit to the bore. That is the secret.

I would stick to Pyrodex RS. That is the best alternative to black powder. Some guys use a few grains of finer pistol powder (FFFG) first and then rifle powder over it. But start with straight Pyrodex RS and you will probably never want for more.

Most guys pour too much powder. They think they have to shoot 100 grs or they are not shooting enough gun. This is backwards. Most rifles shoot best between 60 and 90 grs. Each gun is different and barrel length plays a big role. But keep it down under 100 grains and shoot plenty of paper until you know where the sweet spot is. Unless you are hunting Yak at 500 yards about 70 grains is all you need.

That is my spin on it. I don't shoot that type of rifle anymore. But that is my impressions based on my limited experience.

Hope that helps.

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Do they have Yak in Arizona??? Lol. 

Im with Bob on that. I am sure after he built that muzzleloader he tested every possible combination of balls, bullets, patch thickness etc etc. Im betting the numbers he gave you are what he found to shoot best. But like Bob mentioned, play around and test things out for yourself. You might find a bullet/powder combo that you like better. I do know loose powder and balls do shoot a lot better out of the traditional muzzleloaders than anything i have tried. But, each gun is different and like Bob said, more powder isn't always better. Beautiful gun by the way.

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