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1 hour ago, nugget108 said:

Do they have Yak in Arizona??? Lol. 

Im with Bob on that. I am sure after he built that muzzleloader he tested every possible combination of balls, bullets, patch thickness etc etc. Im betting the numbers he gave you are what he found to shoot best. But like Bob mentioned, play around and test things out for yourself. You might find a bullet/powder combo that you like better. I do know loose powder and balls do shoot a lot better out of the traditional muzzleloaders than anything i have tried. But, each gun is different and like Bob said, more powder isn't always better. Beautiful gun by the way.

Thanks, he did an outstanding job.

No yak...but we do have bison! Chances are good, that I would never draw a tag for that hunt, but it's cool to think about.  :snapoutofit:

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I read in some gun magazine about killing buffalo. I know it is true because I really believe it.

During the massacre years they generally used a 45-70 black powder cartridge and the average shot was 150 yds. The bullets were generally 375 gr. .456 dia. soft lead. The charge was 70 grains of FFF black powder.

They killed hundreds of thousands of buffalo. Those rascals were as big as Slim's mobile chateu. We are talking a lot of animal. With a 375 gr. projectile driven with 70 grains of black powder in a breech loaded weapon.

So it really does not take much more powder than that to get it done with a muzzle loaded bullet. Maybe 10 -15 grains. 

Shooting balls is a bit different than bullets. There is a whole lot less bearing surface on the projectile. As a result less pressure because there is less drag. So charges can increase. Balls are (generally) lighter than bullets. Again less pressure so charges can increase.

So a muzzleloader will take a little more powder with a ball than a bullet to get the same pressure. And you can pour a lot of powder before you see critical pressures because there is less resistance at the projectile.

So a ball shooter might use more powder than a sabot shooter. Maybe quite a bit more if they were shooting long ranges.

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Posted (edited)

Just to get ya straight, Bob, you're thinking sabots best way to go accuracy wise? All my muskets have the 1:48 twist. Any experience with those?

I know when T C was marketing these rifles they were selling their own version of the Minnie Ball too.

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3 hours ago, Edge said:

Just to get ya straight, Bob, you're thinking sabots best way to go accuracy wise? All my muskets have the 1:48 twist. Any experience with those?

I know when T C was marketing these rifles they were selling their own version of the Minnie Ball too.

There is not enough twist to stabilize a bullet at 1:48. A barrel like that is probably more accurate with a ball. I have seen guys shoot minnie and buffalo bullets with good accuracy though. But not what you can expect from a ball. So in your barrel I would say that a ball will probably be more accurate.

With a tighter twist the sabot is probably potentially more accurate. But that depends on a lot of factors. I would guess that a saboted rifle bullet in the proper barrel would have more accuracy potential than a ball in the proper barrel. 

Bullets are definitely more lethal. But....

A bullet tumbles and goes wild when it slows, drops subsonic or hits something downrange. A ball is pretty stable at any speed. And even if it is deflected it won't tumble off the center of gravity. So a ball might have some accuracy advantage at long ranges or in brush. Maybe.

I know a fellow who shoots saboted bullets in a TC Hawken rifle. I think it has the original 1:48 twist. He can hit beer cans at 100 yards all day. So it is accurate enough. 

If I were using a slow twist barrel I think I would try the lightest bullet available. That would probably be a 180 grain 10mm bullet. You will have to order sabots online but they are available from a couple outfits. I like Harvester. But there are others.

You could really send it screaming down range and a high quality pistol bullet will generally fly straight for 100 yards or so. So I would do a little comparing and see. 

You can blow a lot of money downrange experimenting with different bullets and sabots trying to find the perfect combination. The slow twist is not going to work with longer projectiles. So the shortest, lightest bullet you can find is probably the best place to start. That is just an educated guess though. 

It takes a few dozen rounds loaded at various charges to know what a rifle can really do with a particular bullet/sabot combo. And there are a wide range of bullets and as many sabots. So it can be a laborious and time consuming task punching paper and comparing groups.

With a little patience you will get it down to a point you can say what is best for you. That is just about the only way to tell if one is more accurate than the other.

If I was shooting a primitive weapon I would stick with balls for practice. I don't think I would hunt with balls though. I would use buffalo bullets or Minnie balls and try to wring the best accuracy out of it by testing powder charges and cleaning/lubing techniques. Then hunt the critter to within my gun's limitations or pass on the shot.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

There is not enough twist to stabilize a bullet at 1:48. A barrel like that is probably more accurate with a ball. I have seen guys shoot minnie and buffalo bullets with good accuracy though. But not what you can expect from a ball. So in your barrel I would say that a ball will probably be more accurate.

With a tighter twist the sabot is probably potentially more accurate. But that depends on a lot of factors. I would guess that a saboted rifle bullet in the proper barrel would have more accuracy potential than a ball in the proper barrel. 

Bullets are definitely more lethal. But....

A bullet tumbles and goes wild when it slows, drops subsonic or hits something downrange. A ball is pretty stable at any speed. And even if it is deflected it won't tumble off the center of gravity. So a ball might have some accuracy advantage at long ranges or in brush. Maybe.

I know a fellow who shoots saboted bullets in a TC Hawken rifle. I think it has the original 1:48 twist. He can hit beer cans at 100 yards all day. So it is accurate enough. 

If I were using a slow twist barrel I think I would try the lightest bullet available. That would probably be a 180 grain 10mm bullet. You will have to order sabots online but they are available from a couple outfits. I like Harvester. But there are others.

You could really send it screaming down range and a high quality pistol bullet will generally fly straight for 100 yards or so. So I would do a little comparing and see. 

You can blow a lot of money downrange experimenting with different bullets and sabots trying to find the perfect combination. The slow twist is not going to work with longer projectiles. So the shortest, lightest bullet you can find is probably the best place to start. That is just an educated guess though. 

It takes a few dozen rounds loaded at various charges to know what a rifle can really do with a particular bullet/sabot combo. And there are a wide range of bullets and as many sabots. So it can be a laborious and time consuming task punching paper and comparing groups.

With a little patience you will get it down to a point you can say what is best for you. That is just about the only way to tell if one is more accurate than the other.

If I was shooting a primitive weapon I would stick with balls for practice. I don't think I would hunt with balls though. I would use buffalo bullets or Minnie balls and try to wring the best accuracy out of it by testing powder charges and cleaning/lubing techniques. Then hunt the critter to within my gun's limitations or pass on the shot.

 

 

Great advice.

I've been reading up on the Hornady PA but it only comes in .50... I'll look into the buffalo

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If you want to cast Minnie balls there are some sweet moulds available. They even have a hollow ball point looking thing. Kind of a ball with more bearing surface.

If you shoot a primitive weapon you need to cast projectiles over the campfire don't you?

I cast a bunch of 45 cal. bullets for sabots. They weren't very accurate. I cast a bunch of .50 cal buffalo bullets too. They were better but still about 4-5 inches at 100 yards. 

I bought some cast bullets in .45 and .50 and they shoot well. So I figure my casting skills need some work.

If I was shooting a sweet old handmade gun like Dave I would be casting balls from lead I had mined and making powder from sulphur and mezquite charcoal. 

 

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9 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

If I was shooting a sweet old handmade gun like Dave I would be casting balls from lead I had mined and making powder from sulphur and mezquite charcoal.

That part doesn't sound too bad. Making the saltpeter is the nasty part. I looked up how it used to be made...and I don't want any part of that. :nono:

https://www.survival-manual.com/saltpeter.php

I am sure I would change my tune if it saved the life of someone I cared about.

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I think I would just buy the KNO3 and bypass that process. :sickbyc:

But no one has lived until they use carbide and mercury to make acetylides for priming!

I saw a guy make priming explosive in a mercury coated copper pan. Just like amalgamation. He used a piece of carbide and a little water in one corner.

The stuff he scraped off the pan the next morning went into copper caps he punched the night before. He could make quite a few caps with a bean sized drop of mercury and a little chunk of carbide.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I think I would just buy the KNO3 and bypass that process. :sickbyc:

But no one has lived until they use carbide and mercury to make acetylides for priming!

I saw a guy make priming explosive in a mercury coated copper pan. Just like amalgamation. He used a piece of carbide and a little water in one corner.

The stuff he scraped off the pan the next morning went into copper caps he punched the night before. He could make quite a few caps with a bean sized drop of mercury and a little chunk of carbide.

 

 

 

I bet that was interesting to watch. I've heard that if you gently crush just the white tip of a strike anywhere match, you can press the powder into a cap with an arbor press. It is supposed to work as a passable primer in a SHTF scenario. A lot could go wrong doing that of course...

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I bet match heads would work pretty good. 

If things get so bad I need to make primers from match heads to shoot a muzzle loader we are in big trouble. But it is handy to know it might work.

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I stopped by Sportsman's Warehouse yesterday to get some Pyrodex.

The place was swamped with people buying up all the .223 and 9mm. Ammo and components to shoot their fellow American with. As I waited in line the conversation was all about killing thy neighbor in support of a political viewpoint. It reminded me of a bunch of traitorous Frenchmen.

Pyrodex was readily available and cheap. I paid $22 bucks a pound. And there was a good selection of balls, bullets and sabots. No one seems to be interested in anything that does not have a high cycle rate. So it is a great time to shoot a smokestick. 

They had several boxes of the Hornady FTX 210 and 250 gr. .452 bullets. These are the same bullets that you buy with the TC sabots but they are less than half price in boxes of 100. So that is a super good deal. 

They don't carry any sabots other than the standard TC stuff. Those are too small for accuracy in many muzzle loaders but they had plenty. And they had lots of black powder primers and shotgun primers too. 

I'll be ordering a bunch of sabots from Harvester. They said they have a big demand and two week lead time. So these are the only thing that is in short supply right now. 

I plan on shooting a couple days a week for the next couple weeks. I have a hunt in October for mule deer in a place where it will be challenging to get a shot. Things need to be just right with the rifle. 

I have another surgery in late July that will put me out for a few weeks. I won't have a lot of time afterward to get back on my feet and get some shooting in before the hunt. So I'll be burning a lot of powder in July.

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$22 /lb sounds decent to me. I have to brave the herds and make a supply run this week. I may stop and get a lb or two, along with caps & 54 cal balls. That's probably more powder than I will shoot in a lifetime. 

It's a shame so many morons are ready to step right up and start killing their own countrymen.  :aw-shucks:

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Posted (edited)
On 7/6/2020 at 10:52 AM, Sonoran Dave said:

$22 /lb sounds decent to me. I have to brave the herds and make a supply run this week. I may stop and get a lb or two, along with caps & 54 cal balls. That's probably more powder than I will shoot in a lifetime. 

It's a shame so many morons are ready to step right up and start killing their own countrymen.  :aw-shucks:

With the millions of more new gun owners, maybe more are ready to defend themselves against their own moron countrymen?

Edited by Edge
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11 hours ago, Edge said:

With the millions of more new gun owners, maybe more are ready to defend themselves against their own moron countrymen?

For sure. Just as they should.  Defending oneself or one's family is an entirely different matter,  than killing people who don't share a political opinion.  

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I think that police departments are in big trouble. Not only is there a shortage of funding due to city and State budgets being busted, the scope of their duties is being narrowed in many places.  I think it is safe to say in the future there will be fewer police available and fewer calls they will respond to. 

Suits me. I think the efforts of the police should be limited to situations where armed warriors are appropriate. All other functions can be much better served by unarmed persons with a bit different objective and attitude.

I think it is a great idea to let the citizens fend for themselves. Every American should be prepared to defend their own property. Police rarely prevent crimes. The generally show up afterward to take a report and tell you there is mot much they can do. In many cases the police are not prepared or trained to handle the situation and just make it worse.

In my personal experience a kid with good typing skills could handle a burglary report better than a gorilla in body armor with an arsenal in the trunk. The same with traffic tickets, barking dogs, loud parties and people off their meds.

Things are going to get a whole lot worse. People are going to get desperate. A weapon in the right hands is the best solution for most violent crime. And it is the only good solution to protect your private property. 

I think this country is going to get a whole lot more violent in the upcoming months due to the economic and political disasters we are facing. Just like wearing a mask and staying apart from each other is the only (albeit imperfect) defense for the virus, so is good personal defense the best (albeit imperfect) defense for crime.

I don't plan on taking part in an ideological gun battle. Nor do I plan on fighting against (or for) my government. I don't need much firepower to defend my property nor my family. Just a little powder and a hand full of projectiles is plenty for any threat that may present itself.

 

 

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