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1 hour ago, Dakota Slim said:

Trey Gowdy says Minnesota police officer charged in Floyd's death should be charged with first-degree murder

https://www.foxnews.com/media/trey-gowdy-says-minnesota-police-officer-charged-in-floyds-death-should-be-charged-with-first-degree-murder

 

If Trey was  prosecuting the case, I might have faith in a murder 1 filing and then hope to get a plea to 2nd degree to avoid a trial.

The elements of 1st degree (and 2nd degree), were not there, (according to Hennipin Minn. co. attorney Mike Freeman) since you have to prove premeditation, malice aforethought with the specific intent to kill. Usually very difficult to prove in any murder case and almost impossible to prove in the trial of a police officer, "under color of authority" Perhaps South Carolina has a lesser burden of proof, or Trey Gowdy may be a "high filer" to increase the odds of a plea agreement, (which may or may not explain his position on what he believes is appropriate as a charge) It is common for DA's to over file cases and sometimes it backfires on them, because the defense will use that as being proof that the state was, "out to get" the defendant and similar arguments which juries sometimes buy because, "don't forget, the DA is just another cop only wearing a suit instead of a badge and a gun" 

Manslaughter, on the other hand,  has a general intent requirement, where the burden is met simply by the doing of the act,  by proving a reckless disregard for human life resulting in death. The state pretty much has that one locked down tight by the video evidence. (if it can be proven that the knee in the neck was the cause or contributed to the cause of death) The coroner's finding will be key on causation but likely be challenged by defense counsel expert witness testimony. Often these types of cases are won or lost by Forensic pathology. The side that retains the most eminent and convincing Forensic Pathologist may have a "leg up" toward success because juries are the ultimate triers of fact and a highly credentialed scientist tends to be a very convincing authority in front of a jury.

Personally, I think the DA filed what he honestly believed he could prove in court( which is the ethical standard for filing a criminal change against a defendant). If the ongoing investigation reveals additional facts relevant to an elevated filing, the prosecution would, no doubt bump it up, since it increases the odds for a plea bargain. However, it should be noted that due to the notoriety and incendiary nature of the case, the DA may choose not to accept a plea down to manslaughter and that's when you will need a Trey Gowdy type "For the People"

If a Dream Team is brought in, similar to the O.J Simpson case, and a change of venue is granted, all bets are off. Keep in mind both sides will likely be trying to pack the jury with a majority racial - makeup advantage. I suspect there will be a few surprises along the way, possibly starting with conflicting interpretations of the results of multiple autopsy reports,  including cause of death and evidentiary  issues.

Probably a long road ahead for both sides.

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2 minutes ago, BMc said:

If Trey was  prosecuting the case, I might have faith in a murder 1 filing and then hope to get a plea to 2nd degree to avoid a trial.

The elements of 1st degree (and 2nd degree), were not there, (according to Hennipin Minn. co. attorney Mike Freeman) since you have to prove premeditation, malice aforethought with the specific intent to kill. Usually very difficult to prove in any murder case and almost impossible to prove in the trial of a police officer, "under color of authority" Perhaps South Carolina has a lesser burden of proof, or Trey Gowdy may be a "high filer" to increase the odds of a plea agreement, (which may or may not explain his position on what he believes is appropriate as a change) It is common for DA's to over file cases and sometimes it backfires on them, because the defense will use that as being proof that the state was, "out to get" the defendant and similar arguments which sometimes buy because, "don't forget, the DA is just another cop only wearing a suit instead of a badge and a gun" 

Manslaughter, on the other hand,  has a general intent requirement, where the burden is met simply by the doing of the act,  by proving a reckless disregard for human life resulting in death. The state pretty much has that one locked down tight by the video evidence. (if it can be proven that the knee in the neck was the cause or contributed to the cause of death) The coroner's finding will be key on causation but likely be challenged by defense counsel expert witness testimony. Often these types of cases are won or lost by Forensic pathology. The side that retains the most eminent and convincing Forensic Pathologist may have a "leg up" toward success because juries are the ultimate triers of fact and a highly credentialed scientist tends to be a very convincing authority in front of a jury.

Personally, I think the DA filed what he honestly believed he could prove in court( which is the ethical standard for filing a criminal change against a defendant). If the ongoing investigation reveals additional facts relevant to an elevated filing, the prosecution would, no doubt bump it up, since it increases the odds for a plea bargain. However, it should be noted that due to the notoriety and incendiary nature of the case, the DA may choose not to accept a plea down to manslaughter and that's when you will need a Trey Gowdy type "For the People"

If a Dream Team is brought in, similar to the O.J Simpson case, and a change of venue is granted, all bets are off. Keep in mind both sides will likely be trying to pack the jury with a majority racial - makeup advantage. I suspect there will be a few surprises along the way, possibly starting with conflicting interpretations  of the results of multiple autopsy reports,  and cause of death and evidentiary  issues. Probably a long road ahead for both sides.

Yes, Trey's idea about premeditation is a stretch. I think a lot of information will come out regarding the relationship between the deceased and the defendant. Maybe with deceased and multiple officers in that precinct who may have been at the scene. It appeared to me that the defendant was one of the latter police officers to arrive at the scene.
I think some damaging information will come out about the deceased -- probably drug related -- and he does have a lengthy rap sheet from Texas. That doesn't change what happened but it could be used by the defense to help sway the jury into a lesser crime or maybe even an acquittal. 
And, of course there will be the autopsy report. I read that Michael Baden has been hired by the family to do his own autopsy. 
I agree, a long road lies ahead. In the meantime there are riots to quell and fires to put out. 

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I hear the Governor of Arizona is tucking you all in at 8:00 for a few nights because you can't keep your protests peaceful.

It is all those ANTIFA terrorists over there causing trouble im sure.

:25r30wi:

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3 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I hear the Governor of Arizona is tucking you all in at 8:00 for a few nights because you can't keep your protests peaceful.

It is all those ANTIFA terrorists over there causing trouble im sure.

:25r30wi:

That's hilarious bob. Maybe someone should tuck you in.

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Posted (edited)

This just in!

Police had arrested Floyd and were trying to put him in a squad car when he stiffened up and fell to the ground, saying he was claustrophobic, according to the complaint. (This was NOT on the video seen by millions)

An official autopsy revealed nothing to support strangulation as the cause of death, concluding that the combined effects of being restrained, potential intoxicants in Floyd’s system and his underlying health issues, including heart disease, likely contributed to his death.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/george-floyd-family-enlists-dr-michael-baden-to-perform-second-autopsy

Edited by Dakota Slim
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11 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

This just in!

Police had arrested Floyd and were trying to put him in a squad car when he stiffened up and fell to the ground, saying he was claustrophobic, according to the complaint. (This was NOT on the video seen by millions)

An official autopsy revealed nothing to support strangulation as the cause of death, concluding that the combined effects of being restrained, potential intoxicants in Floyd’s system and his underlying health issues, including heart disease, likely contributed to his death.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/george-floyd-family-enlists-dr-michael-baden-to-perform-second-autopsy

That is such a relief to know that the cops did nothing wrong at all. He was just black, stoned and would have probably died in the squad car on the way to jail all by himself.

Now let's go arrest those uppity protesters and get back to making America great!

:laught16:

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29 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

That's hilarious bob. Maybe someone should tuck you in.

Oh please let it be you Slim!

:4chsmu1:

Be nice or I'll call the National Guard tonight at 8:00 and have them lock your grumpy hump in the RV for a few hours.

:5bat:

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If they would start useing real bullets, on this crap, it would make them think about it, Grubstake

 

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We are sick, divided, our economy is wrecked. Foreign players are working on our heads and we are gobbling it up like hungry puppies. There is rioting across the nation and our leader is pitting us against each other. Several domestic groups as well as organized criminal groups are taking advantage of our weakness. And this will make the sickness grow exponentially.

Exactly how long will it take for us to accept what is happening and do the things we need to do to make it better?

We are facing devastating sickness and economic problems. This election will not turn out well no matter which way it goes.

Wash your hands. Wear a mask. Grow a garden. Gather your family close to you and conserve your resources. Be kind to each other.

This isn't Disneyland boys. We are going to have to get our hands dirty with this one. 

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16 minutes ago, grubstake said:

If they would start useing real bullets, on this crap, it would make them think about it, Grubstake

 

So simple yet so genius. 

Just shoot a few and they would stop protesting being killed.

You have captured the spirit of America in your post Grubby! You are a true American Patriot.

 

 

 

 

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On 5/29/2020 at 10:45 PM, Bedrock Bob said:

The police are out of control and unaccountable. Racism is a popular excuse to beat a man but they have plenty of other excuses to brutalize whomever they want. They know they can get by with it.

The cops are the most dangerous gang out there. The streets are burning because there is no justice when cops go too far. And they go too far regularly.

If social uprising is what it takes to get justice then let's have it! That is the only way we are ever going to force change. IMHO I am amazed it took so long to get to this point. 

 

That's what I thought you said. Just checking.

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So the protesters went out and protested. The looters went out and looter. The riot leaders led the riots and the arsonists burned down cars, houses and businesses. All in the name of George Floyd.
Was it worth it? What good did any of it do? What price do the rest of us have to pay for all this?

A lot!

Minnesota Health Commissioner Jan Malcolm told reporters earlier this week: "I'm understanding the forecast is for very large protests this weekend, with a lot of people coming in from across the state and around the country and gathering in large groups.

"That's almost sure to have an impact on furthering spread.

"As we know, large gatherings do pose a risk in any epidemic, but certainly where we stand today with the state of COVID-19 spread in our community. Knowing that we have community spread, we just want to again encourage folks who gather to be mindful of the risk."

https://www.newsweek.com/george-floyd-protests-coronavirus-spread-concern-1507639

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1 minute ago, Dakota Slim said:

That's what I thought you said. Just checking.

Do you need me to explain something again? Clarify? Pick apart some detail?

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6 hours ago, LukeJ said:

So you're saying that since I don't have combat experience, my words carry less weight than yours?

That only combat veterans are enlightened enough to know 'the real truths'?

Did you serve for the flag and the song?  Or was it for what they represent?  Do I have to be deployed in order to possess that insight?

Are the symbols more important than the values they are supposed to represent?

When you can't produce an effective counter, you call me an arrogant kid.

This country was founded on idealism.

1) "So you're saying that since I don't have combat experience, my words carry less weight than yours?"

No Luke, that's not what I am saying, but you did make the following statement: "Service members who fought and died in defense for our country didn't do it for a flag or a song. They did it for what the flag and the song represent" and since you so self assuredly purported to know what war veterans killed in the line of duty died for, I was asserting that the only way you could possibly know this, IMO, is to have served alongside veterans in war. That's why I challenged you on that subject.

2) Did you serve for the flag and the song?  Or was it for what they represent? Are the symbols more important than the values they are supposed to represent?

I didn't join the military for either reason. Not for the flag or the song. And not for "Mom and Apple Pie"

I served under the flag, not specifically for it. I was 22 years at the time and married. I didn't have to serve, but I chose to serve because it was my generation that was bearing the burden, the risks, and the price of going off to war, and I felt obligated to share the burden and take the risks that others were taking. 

On the subject of symbolism:  Here you have returned to the heart of the issue. You keep making a distinction between the flag as just a symbol and "just a  piece of cloth"  You separate the two, the symbol and the thing. But in the minds of many Americans it is more than just a piece of cloth. The symbol and the values it represents to certain people (who believe in and support those values) cannot be separated, because they are one.

But that wasn't the original point. It was about the right for Kaep to take a knee when the National Anthem was played and the National colors were displayed. I certainly believe that Kaepernick had every right to do what ever he wanted. This is America. We have the right of free expression, free speech etc. I will always support that right. But here's the problem. He worked for the NFL and his employer said it was costing them a lot of lost ticket revenue as a result of Kaep's actions. That's the whole issue front and center. You apparently disagree with the NFL. So did Kaep. Fine, I have no argument with that. Kaep had a right to make the choice he made. Last I heard, he still supported the choice he made.

3) "This country was founded on idealism"

I agree.

It's a good trait to possess. With idealism there is Hope.

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

So the protesters went out and protested. The looters went out and looter. The riot leaders led the riots and the arsonists burned down cars, houses and businesses. All in the name of George Floyd.
Was it worth it? What good did any of it do? What price do the rest of us have to pay for all this?

A lot!

Minnesota Health Commissioner Jan Malcolm told reporters earlier this week: "I'm understanding the forecast is for very large protests this weekend, with a lot of people coming in from across the state and around the country and gathering in large groups.

"That's almost sure to have an impact on furthering spread.

"As we know, large gatherings do pose a risk in any epidemic, but certainly where we stand today with the state of COVID-19 spread in our community. Knowing that we have community spread, we just want to again encourage folks who gather to be mindful of the risk."

https://www.newsweek.com/george-floyd-protests-coronavirus-spread-concern-1507639

And you will be able to watch the spike in COVID cases in the coming days and weeks right here....
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/?fbclid=IwAR0paNUNVad6SjT-1114_Z9R7ydA9Lr26-JR1gd9vOzocoJGuI4ihS-l-qo

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Well BOb, you let these punks, put my life or my wifes life in danger, aqnd they will be met with deadly force, the END! Grubstake

 

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7 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Do you need me to explain something again? Clarify? Pick apart some detail?

No bob. we're reading you loud and clear.
:25r30wi:

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55 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

So the protesters went out and protested. The looters went out and looter. The riot leaders led the riots and the arsonists burned down cars, houses and businesses. All in the name of George Floyd.
Was it worth it? What good did any of it do? What price do the rest of us have to pay for all this?

A lot!

Minnesota Health Commissioner Jan Malcolm told reporters earlier this week: "I'm understanding the forecast is for very large protests this weekend, with a lot of people coming in from across the state and around the country and gathering in large groups.

"That's almost sure to have an impact on furthering spread.

"As we know, large gatherings do pose a risk in any epidemic, but certainly where we stand today with the state of COVID-19 spread in our community. Knowing that we have community spread, we just want to again encourage folks who gather to be mindful of the risk."

https://www.newsweek.com/george-floyd-protests-coronavirus-spread-concern-1507639

It is a violation of your rights MM. They can't force you to stay inside your RV because a bunch of idiots are rioting in the big city.

All of these problems created by others are impacting your world negatively. Something should be done about it! You are the one being oppressed!

If I were you I would organize a protest against the oppression that the protests of the oppressed have foisted upon you.

Just get it all out of your system by 8:00 because the Arizona National Guard is going to roll up into the RV park and make sure everyone is inside.

:laught16:

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24 minutes ago, grubstake said:

Well BOb, you let these punks, put my life or my wifes life in danger, aqnd they will be met with deadly force, the END! Grubstake

 

I don't think you have to worry about your life being in danger Grubstake. But if you and your wife decide to go to the protest with a gun and you are threatened you should definitely take the shot.

You were suggesting the police use real bullets in a riot situation and that is what I was commenting on. It was a very unwise idea. Probably something that is best not voiced publicly for a whole lot of good reasons.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, BMc said:

1) "So you're saying that since I don't have combat experience, my words carry less weight than yours?"

No Luke, that's not what I am saying, but you did make the following statement: "Service members who fought and died in defense for our country didn't do it for a flag or a song. They did it for what the flag and the song represent" and since you so self assuredly purported to know what war veterans killed in the line of duty died for, I was asserting that the only way you could possibly know this, IMO, is to have served alongside veterans in war. That's why I challenged you on that subject.

2) Did you serve for the flag and the song?  Or was it for what they represent? Are the symbols more important than the values they are supposed to represent?

I didn't join the military for either reason. Not for the flag or the song. And not for "Mom and Apple Pie"

I served under the flag, not specifically for it. I was 22 years at the time and married. I didn't have to serve, but I chose to serve because it was my generation that was bearing the burden, the risks, and the price of going off to war, and I felt obligated to share the burden and take the risks that others were taking. 

On the subject of symbolism:  Here you have returned to the heart of the issue. You keep making a distinction between the flag as just a symbol and "just a  piece of cloth"  You separate the two, the symbol and the thing. But in the minds of many Americans it is more than just a piece of cloth. The symbol and the values it represents to certain people (who believe in and support those values) cannot be separated, because they are one.

But that wasn't the original point. It was about the right for Kaep to take a knee when the National Anthem was played and the National colors were displayed. I certainly believe that Kaepernick had every right to do what ever he wanted. This is America. We have the right of free expression, free speech etc. I will always support that right. But here's the problem. He worked for the NFL and his employer said it was costing them a lot of lost ticket revenue as a result of Kaep's actions. That's the whole issue front and center. You apparently disagree with the NFL. So did Kaep. Fine, I have no argument with that. Kaep had a right to make the choice he made. Last I heard, he still supported the choice he made.

3) "This country was founded on idealism"

I agree.

It's a good trait to possess. With idealism there is Hope.

 

 

 

So how is Kapaernick unpatriotic?

You have done another beautiful Fandango but have not really touched upon the statement that started you dancing.

You called him unpatriotic. That was the genesis of your discussion with Luke. You have not supported that statement at all. Rather you have refuted it after trying to act wise and fatherly and invoke your service history.

I don't get how he is unpatriotic over a contractual obligation to the NFL. Nor do I regard his form of peaceful protest unpatriotic. Quite the opposite. He is showing his respect in a unique way to bring attention to an obviously "burning" issue that desperately needs to be addressed.

Care to dance?

Edited by Bedrock Bob
They are playing cha chas and rumbas in the tango parlor Mac.
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2 hours ago, grubstake said:

If they would start useing real bullets, on this crap, it would make them think about it, Grubstake

Yes, we would be following the glowing example of places like Libya, Sudan and the Congo! That sounds like a great idea... I just hope the police show a bit more discretion when they shoot real bullets than they do shooting tear gas and pepper bullets. Here's a video of Minnesota police shooting at people standing on their porch. So much for private property rights. 

"Light 'em up" he says... 

 

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12 minutes ago, IDdesertman said:

Yes, we would be following the glowing example of places like Libya, Sudan and the Congo! That sounds like a great idea... I just hope the police show a bit more discretion when they shoot real bullets than they do shooting tear gas and pepper bullets. Here's a video of Minnesota police shooting at people standing on their porch. So much for private property rights. 

"Light 'em up" he says... 

 

The people taking that video were all dressed in black and wearing masks. What do you suppose they were doing to bring the cops to their neighborhood?
Were they just lucky?

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