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21 minutes ago, BMc said:

Sorry Luke, I can't hang with the "non-patriots" on this one. 

That's what I was thinking Mac.
Kaepernick came out and said he would help pay legal fees for those arrested. 
Hello? You don't get arrested without some sort of proof that you committed a crime so that says everything about where his head is at.  
Maybe he should have offered to help rebuild the neighborhoods. 

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From my perspective, and the way I was taught in two different police academies and years of police work (under California law), A police officer (or a citizen) may not use deadly force solely in defe

Im gonna say i dont agree with all of the people saying the United States is full of inequality. I have 5 friends that are a "Minority" and they have awesome careers making over 100 grand a year. Coll

It would be one thing if you had a thick enough skin to see these topics through to the end. But no, you start them and then tattle when you don’t like others responses. That’s the equivalent of the l

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20 minutes ago, BMc said:

Sorry Luke, I can't hang with the "non-patriots" on this one. 

 

2 hours ago, BMc said:

"Property is replaceable, People are not.  They are not equal, nor should they be viewed that way" 

I agree. Nor should either be destroyed with impunity or callous disregard for the law.

 

Then your two statements seem to be in conflict.

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35 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

That's what I was thinking Mac.
Kaepernick came out and said he would help pay legal fees for those arrested. 
Hello? You don't get arrested without some sort of proof that you committed a crime so that says everything about where his head is at.  
Maybe he should have offered to help rebuild the neighborhoods. 

Let me be clear and say that just because I brought up Kaepernick, that doesn't mean I'm advocating for everything he's done or said.

I do understand why he chose to do what he did.

I'd think if 'people' had engaged in a meaningful discussion about what could be done to curb police brutality,  he would have stood again.

The discussion never took place, the thing was politicized and people were expected to choose sides.

Advocating for people, who's rights are trampled on, does not make one a 'non-patriot'.

 

 

download.jpg

Edited by LukeJ
Thought picture would be bigger. Time to put on the reading glasses.
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https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/protestors-knock-down-white-house-securitys-barricade-as-tensions-mount-over-floyds-death/ar-BB14ORuY?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=edgsp

 

Here's something I don't agree with.

The protesters have every right to say what needs to be said. 

But when damage is done, and other Americans are put in a dangerous position, it's wrong.

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Im gonna say i dont agree with all of the people saying the United States is full of inequality. I have 5 friends that are a "Minority" and they have awesome careers making over 100 grand a year. College educations and families. I will say that life is all about choices and how YOU decide to live your life. Im not trying to preach and this will probably be a very unpopular comment but in my eyes its the truth. Sorry, just how i see it. In my eyes there are no black people, white people, blue people or whatever. We are ALL PEOPLE AND HUMAN BEINGS no matter what color we are. Just depends on how you want to live your life.

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1 hour ago, LukeJ said:

 

Then your two statements seem to be in conflict.

I'm not getting it I guess. I don't see a conflict, otherwise I would have tried to clarify any perceived contradiction or misconception. I also didn't see a correlation between the Kaepernick example and your reference that I agree with him. I'm not sure where the misunderstanding lies but if you would be so kind to explain the conflict to me, I will make an earnest effort to reconcile the disparity.

 

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20 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

Im gonna say i dont agree with all of the people saying the United States is full of inequality. I have 5 friends that are a "Minority" and they have awesome careers making over 100 grand a year. College educations and families. I will say that life is all about choices and how YOU decide to live your life. Im not trying to preach and this will probably be a very unpopular comment but in my eyes its the truth. Sorry, just how i see it. In my eyes there are no black people, white people, blue people or whatever. We are ALL PEOPLE AND HUMAN BEINGS no matter what color we are. Just depends on how you want to live your life.

I hear what you're trying to say.

The United States is a diverse place with many different communities.  Arizona and Nevada are most likely on one end of the spectrum.

While our country is not 'full of inequality', in some communities it still does exist.

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1 hour ago, LukeJ said:

Let me be clear and say that just because I brought up Kaepernick, that doesn't mean I'm advocating for everything he's done or said.

I do understand why he chose to do what he did.

I'd think if 'people' had engaged in a meaningful discussion about what could be done to curb police brutality,  he would have stood again.

The discussion never took place, the thing was politicized and people were expected to choose sides.

Advocating for people, who's rights are trampled on, does not make one a 'non-patriot'.

"Until it was politicized, and every 'patriot' made it about something else"

I put non-patriots in quotes since you put patriots in quotes and because you seemed to be placing blame on defenders of respect for the flag and and denigrating, "patriotism" I agree in advocating for "peoples rights" I think the mistake was made in choosing the particular forum that Kaepernick chose. But it's the flip side of the same coin Luke. Respect for the flag was considered the line that the paying public decided to draw. It was clear that traditional respect for that symbol was one being advocated above the right to kneel in protest in that arena. People didn't want to see it and voted at the "'box office"

Polarization was a logical progression and inevitable at some point when factions took sides.

 

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24 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

I hear what you're trying to say.

The United States is a diverse place with many different communities.  Arizona and Nevada are most likely on one end of the spectrum.

While our country is not 'full of inequality', in some communities it still does exist.

I believe we are all created equal. What happens after that depends on a lot of factors but the biggest factor is probably the choices we make as individuals.
Our parents are a big influence as we grow up. Beyond that, there are good influences and bad influences.
The bottom line is this is America and we are free to make choices. The sky is the limit. 

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2 minutes ago, BMc said:

I put non-patriots in quotes since you put patriots in quotes and because you seemed to be placing blame on defenders of respect for the flag and and denigrating, "patriotism" I agree in advocating for "peoples rights" I think the mistake was made in choosing the particular forum that Kaepernick chose. But it's the flip side of the same coin Luke. Respect for the flag was considered the line that the paying public decided to draw. It was clear that traditional respect for that symbol was one being advocated above the right to kneel in protest in that arena. People didn't want to see it and voted at the "'box office"

Polarization was a logical progression and inevitable at some point when factions took sides.

So you're placing your feelings about a song and a piece of cloth over the rights of other Americans?

You don't like the forum he chose so 'you' won't entertain a discussion or even admit that it has merit.  "He disrespected the flag...."    "We can't have that....."

There's no law that says that anyone has to do anything when the flag or anthem are presented.  It is done out of respect, but not a requirement.

Kneeling is another gesture that is done out of respect.  Or at least it was before Kaep did it.

Service members who fought and died in defense for our country didn't do it for a flag or a song.  They did it for what the flag and the song represent.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Sadly, some people fear for their lives if they have an encounter with law enforcement.  Even if they are where they should be, and doing what they are supposed to be doing.  Everyone is still entitled to a day in court, and innocent before guilty, and all of that.  Aren't they?

If the police officer put his knee on a white guy's neck, would that make it okay?

How about if the cop was a black guy?  Would your feelings be different?

When Kaep made his 'statement', he didn't say....   "Attention White People...."    He addressed the nation.  It's a national problem.  It still needs to be addressed.

Polarization was the intent when one particular person got involved.

 

 

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30 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

I believe we are all created equal. What happens after that depends on a lot of factors but the biggest factor is probably the choices we make as individuals.
Our parents are a big influence as we grow up. Beyond that, there are good influences and bad influences.
The bottom line is this is America and we are free to make choices. The sky is the limit. 

So if you have 'bad parents' or live in a 'bad neighborhood' tough luck?

You don't think many of these people would love to be able to go somewhere safer and more fruitful?

Everyone is free to make choices, more or less.  Some people have much fewer choices presented to them based on their circumstances through no fault of their own.

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New sheriff in town. "The outrage of our national community about what happened to George Floyd in Minneapolis is real and legitimate. Accountability for his death must be addressed and is being addressed, through the regular process of our criminal justice system, both at the state and at the federal level."

He continued: "That system is working and moving at exceptional speed. Already initial charges have been filed. That process continues to move forward. Justice will be served."

Then he went on to say....

https://video.foxnews.com/v/6160571017001?fbclid=IwAR2JyLRXCTrOwmZONHxotRyl11ZvTofIAoEgp8vqpK2IBb92x2PksxigC-U

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

So if you have 'bad parents' or live in a 'bad neighborhood' tough luck?

You don't think many of these people would love to be able to go somewhere safer and more fruitful?

Everyone is free to make choices, more or less.  Some people have much fewer choices presented to them based on their circumstances through no fault of their own.

That will always be the case Luke. Everybody is different. We all have our own special gifts be it our genetic makeup, talent, intelligence or whatever but we are all equal under the law. 

Edited by Dakota Slim
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16 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

So if you have 'bad parents' or live in a 'bad neighborhood' tough luck?

You don't think many of these people would love to be able to go somewhere safer and more fruitful?

Everyone is free to make choices, more or less.  Some people have much fewer choices presented to them based on their circumstances through no fault of their own.

"In America, all things are possible" 

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6 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

That will always be the case Luke. Everybody is different. We all have our own special gifts be it our genetic makeup, talent, intelligence or whatever but we are all equal under the law. 

But not equal treatment under the law.

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7 minutes ago, BMc said:

"In America, all things are possible" 

Even a cop kneeling on another man's neck in broad daylight like it's no big deal.

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19 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

But not equal treatment under the law.

Theoretically equal treatment under the law. Of course we could get into a debate about race, money and politics (not on this forum) but the lady with the scales is supposed to be wearing a blindfold.  

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Local police gets local responsibility and punishment unless it is a civil rights violation.  Here is what our local police said:

City of Santa Monica Curfew Effective Saturday, May 30

The City of Santa Monica values peaceful protest as vital to our democracy.  Tonight, we follow the City of Los Angeles in imposing a City-wide curfew from 8 p.m. to 5:30 a.m. to ensure public safety across our region.  Emergency responders are exempt, as are those traveling to and from work or seeking or giving emergency care.  As a City, we grieve with the family of George Floyd, feel the anguish across our broader community, and commit ourselves to the healing process that must follow.

From Santa Monica's Chief of Police Cynthia Renaud on Friday, May 29

The Santa Monica Police Department feels the strong emotions and concerns that are being voiced and displayed countrywide. We share these emotions. While the death of George Floyd occurred more than 1,900 miles away, the actions of every sworn officer have the potential to tarnish the badge many of us hold dear. With this, our mission and commitment to the Santa Monica community is unchanged. We remain dedicated to safeguarding our community by improving public safety and upholding the public trust. SMPD believes strongly in accepting individual and collective responsibility for our oath, duty, and actions. We will continue to adhere to strict, unequivocal standards of conduct in keeping with our ethical obligations while respecting the value of human life and dignity.

We encourage discussion and conversation in an effort to promote freedom of speech, transparency, and to preserve the layers of trust and confidence we have worked hard to enjoy, collectively, with our community.

The actions of the officers involved are directly in conflict with the oath we have taken which is to protect and serve.

Our prayers go out to the family of George Floyd and the City of Minneapolis.

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19 minutes ago, Dakota Slim said:

Theoretically equal treatment under the law. Of course we could get into a debate about race, money and politics (not on this forum) but the lady with the scales is supposed to be wearing a blindfold.  

Yeah, I know.   But time and time again, that's not how it turns out.

If there was 'no race' and all humans were 'the same color', would the police brutality issue be more important to everyone?

If they were killing people that looked like 'us', would we still be more concerned with the looting and arson?

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Criminal behavior should be punished to the full extent of the law whether it be LEO or a citizen. What happened to George Floyd was criminal behavior and hopefully Derek Chauvin gets what he deserves. When Chauvin gets to jail, most likely justice will be served by the inmate population...God bless George Floyd and his family. Regardless of race nobody deserves to be treated that way.

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4 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

Yeah, I know.   But time and time again, that's not how it turns out.

If there was 'no race' and all humans were 'the same color', would the police brutality issue be more important to everyone?

If they were killing people that looked like 'us' would we still be more concerned with the looting and arson?

Luke i just dont think you hear about it as much. I think it happens more than we all think.

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1 hour ago, LukeJ said:

So you're placing your feelings about a song and a piece of cloth over the rights of other Americans?

You don't like the forum he chose so 'you' won't entertain a discussion or even admit that it has merit.  "He disrespected the flag...."    "We can't have that....."

There's no law that says that anyone has to do anything when the flag or anthem are presented.  It is done out of respect, but not a requirement.

Kneeling is another gesture that is done out of respect.  Or at least it was before Kaep did it.

Service members who fought and died in defense for our country didn't do it for a flag or a song.  They did it for what the flag and the song represent.

We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Sadly, some people fear for their lives if they have an encounter with law enforcement.  Even if they are where they should be, and doing what they are supposed to be doing.  Everyone is still entitled to a day in court, and innocent before guilty, and all of that.  Aren't they?

If the police officer put his knee on a white guy's neck, would that make it okay?

How about if the cop was a black guy?  Would your feelings be different?

When Kaep made his 'statement', he didn't say....   "Attention White People...."    He addressed the nation.  It's a national problem.  It still needs to be addressed.

Polarization was the intent when one particular person got involved.

 

 

Luke, son, now you're just rambling willy - nilly. I understand that " Kaep" is a folk hero to the down trodden masses and to idealist's. He's a folk hero for taking on the man. Wonderful. His message was mostly drowned out because people didn't want his rights to infringe on their rights at a football game which they were paying to see, without what THEY, perceived to be disrespect for "the song" and "a piece of cloth" The difference is, it's a song and a piece of cloth that is dear to Americans, in this case the paying public, for reasons you seem not to understand.

Luke, I'm not much of a sports fan. Personally, I wouldn't be interested in going to an NFL game anymore. I went to some back in the day, when the Raiders were in L.A and I was a big fan when they were in Oakland..  But I am a supporter of traditional and historical values. Maybe to you, that's "Old School", and only "Geezers" do that, and maybe you don't believe in capitalism or personal property rights, but to sports fans, apparently it was a big issue and they paid their money and made their choices. That was their right. and "They" believed it was the wrong soap box at the wrong place at the wrong time.

"Service members who fought and died in defense for our country didn't do it for a flag or a song.  They did it for what the flag and the song represent"

Really Luke? Maybe I'm not giving you enough credit. You must have one hell of a lot of combat experience to impart such breath taking revelations. If that's the case, I humbly salute you Sir! 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

Yeah, I know.   But time and time again, that's not how it turns out.

If there was 'no race' and all humans were 'the same color', would the police brutality issue be more important to everyone?

If they were killing people that looked like 'us', would we still be more concerned with the looting and arson?

Let me just say that nobody is perfect. Not me, not you, not the cops or the criminals. Personally, I think the race card is being played far too often today and, frankly, I think many of those who accuse others of racism need to look in the mirror. 
 

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3 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

Luke i just dont think you hear about it as much. I think it happens more than we all think.

It's still wrong.

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44 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

Even a cop kneeling on another man's neck in broad daylight like it's no big deal.

Absolutely. But I hope you're not saying that just because it's possible, and it's like it's no big deal that it makes it right?

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