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Mikestang

Two strewn fields, two days, two meteorites

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6 hours ago, wilcam47 said:

I just want to be legal.

You are setting your standards way to high. A misdemeanor now and then just keeps things interesting. Besides, all the big ones are on the other side of the fence. :)

If you don't look at the land ownership map you will never be sure if you are on private land. That makes it a lot easier to tresspass without guilt bothering you all the time. 

I use a standard topo map. Since there are no property boundaries on those maps I can hunt anywhere I want without my conscience nagging me about it.

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

You are setting your standards way to high. A misdemeanor now and then just keeps things interesting. Besides, all the big ones are on the other side of the fence. :)

If you don't look at the land ownership map you will never be sure if you are on private land. That makes it a lot easier to tresspass without guilt bothering you all the time. 

I use a standard topo map. Since there are no property boundaries on those maps I can hunt anywhere I want without my conscience nagging me about it.

 

Yup, you can’t get into trouble if you didn’t “know” it was on private property... :inocent:

Edited by GotAU?
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7 hours ago, GotAU? said:

Yup, you can’t get into trouble if you didn’t “know” it was on private property... :inocent:

If anyone approaches you on private land just insist you are the rightful owner and threaten to call the Sheriff. If they persist just scream they stole your land and call the Sheriff. Chances are the law will have no idea who is lying and take them to jail. All you have to do is stick to your guns.

Same on BLM land. You just scream "you are trespassing on my claim you dirty ###!%$@!"  Then after a while calm down and give them permission to be there. Tell them they can even keep half of what they find. They will think you are a good ol boy and sing songs in your honor.

If anyone with any sense approaches you (and that is unlikely these days) just tell them you are a native on native soil. If that does not work talk crap about "liberals". If that does not work talk crap about "right wingers". Chances are sooner or later you will walk away grinning. Either that or they will walk away grinning.

If you must use a map use one with property lines drawn in with a Sharpie and color it with highlighter pen. Take a sharpie with you in case the lines need to be redrawn to keep you out of "trouble". 

If you use my technique the world is your mountain oyster my friend. Don't be afraid to push the envelope a little. And always keep a light coating of oil on the wire cutters so they don't rust.

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4 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

If anyone approaches you on private land just insist you are the rightful owner and threaten to call the Sheriff. If they persist just scream they stole your land and call the Sheriff. Chances are the law will have no idea who is lying and take them to jail. All you have to do is stick to your guns.

Same on BLM land. You just scream "you are trespassing on my claim you dirty ###!%$@!"  Then after a while calm down and give them permission to be there. Tell them they can even keep half of what they find. They will think you are a good ol boy and sing songs in your honor.

If anyone with any sense approaches you (and that is unlikely these days) just tell them you are a native on native soil. If that does not work talk crap about "liberals". If that does not work talk crap about "right wingers". Chances are sooner or later you will walk away grinning. Either that or they will walk away grinning.

If you must use a map use one with property lines drawn in with a Sharpie and color it with highlighter pen. Take a sharpie with you in case the lines need to be redrawn to keep you out of "trouble". 

If you use my technique the world is your mountain oyster my friend. Don't be afraid to push the envelope a little. And always keep a light coating of oil on the wire cutters so they don't rust.

"Bed rock  Bob said i could" go talk to him....officer!

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11 hours ago, GotAU? said:

Yup, you can’t get into trouble if you didn’t “know” it was on private property... :inocent:

That is actually how the law works in California; it's not trespassing unless someone tells you, but I'm not as familiar with AZ law.  Not that I would ever advocate trespassing, but it can happen on accident, even with the best of intentions.

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6 minutes ago, wilcam47 said:

"Bed rock  Bob said i could" go talk to him....officer!

Exactly!

I always tell them a guy I met named Bill gave me permission. A tall guy with dark hair. A patch over one eye. He said he was the owner. He even gave me this map....

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4 minutes ago, Mikestang said:

That is actually how the law works in California; it's not trespassing unless someone tells you, but I'm not as familiar with AZ law.  Not that I would ever advocate trespassing, but it can happen on accident, even with the best of intentions.

In New Mexico the rightful owner of the land is the guy who calls the law first.

Also, in an argument between two armed men the first one to fire his weapon is the victim acting in self defense. The last one to clear leather is the aggressor who presented a lethal threat. 

So shoot first. Draw your own maps. Carry a blank quitclaim deed in your wallet and keep your cousin the Sheriff on speed dial.

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This isn't really a trespassing issue though. It's one thing to mistakenly enter someone's private land. The law allows for that if the property isn't posted and you haven't been asked to leave.

Where this whole trespassing theory goes south is when you enter private property to find things of value that belong to the owner of the land. In all states that's theft and there is no gray area about whether the land was fenced or posted.

I think we are all in agreement, and the law is clear, that a meteorite belongs to the person who owns the land where it fell.

If you want to hunt for meteorites, gold, rocks, relics, aluminum cans or treasure you have a positive duty under the law to determine the ownership of the land before you enter. If you enter without the permission of the owner and take their property it's theft no matter whether you knew the land was private or not. If that wasn't true I could just go into your yard and take your hose and sprinkler and it would be my gain and your loss. Heck if I take a liking to your gnomes or your welcome mat then it's mine for the taking unless you post a "no trespassing" sign ...right?

Morality isn't about the law. The real problem comes from an inability to recognize that taking other peoples property is wrong whether you are "technically" trespassing or not.

I'm pretty sure all the posters on this thread understand the difference between right and wrong. If that's not true I'm sure those that are confused will speak up.  :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, clay said:

This isn't really a trespassing issue though. It's one thing to mistakenly enter someone's private land. The law allows for that if the property isn't posted and you haven't been asked to leave.

Where this whole trespassing theory goes south is when you enter private property to find things of value that belong to the owner of the land. In all states that's theft and there is no gray area about whether the land was fenced or posted.

I think we are all in agreement, and the law is clear, that a meteorite belongs to the person who owns the land where it fell.

If you want to hunt for meteorites, gold, rocks, relics, aluminum cans or treasure you have a positive duty under the law to determine the ownership of the land before you enter. If you enter without the permission of the owner and take their property it's theft no matter whether you knew the land was private or not. If that wasn't true I could just go into your yard and take your hose and sprinkler and it would be my gain and your loss. Heck if I take a liking to your gnomes or your welcome mat then it's mine for the taking unless you post a "no trespassing" sign ...right?

Morality isn't about the law. The real problem comes from an inability to recognize that taking other peoples property is wrong whether you are "technically" trespassing or not.

I'm pretty sure all the posters on this thread understand the difference between right and wrong. If that's not true I'm sure those that are confused will speak up.  :rolleyes:

Thanks Dad.

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5 hours ago, Mikestang said:

That is actually how the law works in California; it's not trespassing unless someone tells you, but I'm not as familiar with AZ law.  Not that I would ever advocate trespassing, but it can happen on accident, even with the best of intentions.

Funny thing about California and trespassing, if you’ve been warned that you’re on private property and asked to leave, that warning expires after 24 hours and the whole process starts over. You can claim ignorance even though you were just kicked out yesterday.

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11 minutes ago, d_day said:

Funny thing about California and trespassing, if you’ve been warned that you’re on private property and asked to leave, that warning expires after 24 hours and the whole process starts over. You can claim ignorance even though you were just kicked out yesterday.

In California? I don't see anything like that in the California law. Am I missing something?

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39 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Thanks Dad.

Who told I was your Dad son? Was it your mama that spilled the beans?

Anyway that's all water under the bridge now - welcome to the family! :4chsmu1:

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In order to enforce CA criminal code PC 602, it is common that District Attorneys require that a written trespass letter be served upon the individual(s) committing the trespass before any criminal violation of the code be prosecuted (simple trespass) Verbal trespass warnings don't tend to hold up in court coming from a private property owner. Posted property warnings may be exceptions to the rule. For example many cities in CA provide business owners with blank trespass orders to fill out, which can then be served upon the offender by the owner's representative. Those letters generally expire in one year and must be renewed each year.

EXAMPLE:

Trespassing Letter

The Trespassing Letter Program enables business owners in the City of Anaheim to place a PC 602 (Trespassing) letter on file with the Anaheim Police Department.
 

Letter Criteria

 
  • The letter must be composed by you or your company on a company letterhead.
  • The letter must be signed by a person who has a vested interest in the property, for example: the property manager, owner, or employee.
  • The letter must contain phone numbers and an email address for the person signing the letter.
  • There should be nothing in the letter that mentions transients, homelessness, race, ethnicity, or religion.
  • The letter must be similar to the sample letter below.
  • The letter may contain information about your private security company who is authorized to make arrests.
  • The letter expires in one year and must be resubmitted each year.

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14 minutes ago, clay said:

In California? I don't see anything like that in the California law. Am I missing something?

Having previously been a police officer in Calif. I am unaware of any law in the CA penal code that provides for a 24 hour expiration of a trespass warning by a peace officer. Verbal trespass warnings by property owners (unless written and posted) generally do not prove: 1) that the individual(s) received a legal warning. 2) And lacks the proof of specific intent to commit a criminal offense.

 

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48 minutes ago, BMc said:

Having previously been a police officer in Calif. I am unaware of any law in the CA penal code that provides for a 24 hour expiration of a trespass warning by a peace officer. Verbal trespass warnings by property owners (unless written and posted) generally do not prove: 1) that the individual(s) received a legal warning. 2) And lacks the proof of specific intent to commit a criminal offense.

 

Absolute nonsense. The verbal request of the owner to leave the premises is all that is needed. 

Having previously been a trespasser in California I am keenly aware of this.

:laught16:

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1 hour ago, clay said:

In California? I don't see anything like that in the California law. Am I missing something?

From 602(o)(2)

“The owner, the owner’s agent, or the person in lawful possession shall make a separate request to the peace officer on each occasion when the peace officer’s assistance in dealing with a trespass is requested.“

There are provisions for extending it up to 30 days, but they’ve got to do with specific hazards such as high fire danger. Also, a trespass letter can be issued as someone pointed out above. Without a trespass letter or specific extenuating circumstances, they can’t just be arrested, they can only be removed.

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7 minutes ago, d_day said:

From 602(o)(2)

“The owner, the owner’s agent, or the person in lawful possession shall make a separate request to the peace officer on each occasion when the peace officer’s assistance in dealing with a trespass is requested.“

There are provisions for extending it up to 30 days, but they’ve got to do with specific hazards such as high fire danger. Also, a trespass letter can be issued as someone pointed out above. Without a trespass letter or specific extenuating circumstances, they can’t just be arrested, they can only be removed.

Yep that's what I read too. Nothing about 24 hours or the warning expiring just the fact that you have to make a complaint before the police can act. Just makes sense that you can't expect the police to act without a complaint or the police witnessing  the law being broken.

The trespass takes place whether there is a warning or police involved. Trespass is a civil as well as criminal offense so even if the police are never involved the trespasser can be sued and the standard of proof is much lower in a civil suit with the penalty only limited by the bounds of the trespasser's damage to the owners rights.

I'm certainly no expert but Mike's meteorite find appears genuine to me. I doubt he trespassed to find it.  :)

 

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Natives on native soil who seek no harm do not need laws. Corporate persons can hold title to the land but not the native soil. Maritime Law upholds this as well as the Supreme Court.

Skilled Spanish masons flying a big spaceship have decreed that notice to a tresspasser expires after 24 hours as long as the trail is marked by poodles. And in California most trails are marked by poodle turds. These can be assumed to be left by poodles so no further evidence is needed in a court of law.

That is a true affidavit of the laws governing tresspassing as handed down by Kenworthy and written in red ink in the Book of Testicleasians. We can convince others of this by using words we don't know and becoming irritated with any non-believers.

Furthermore, all individuals engaged in conversations that involve self aggrandizing tales while pretending to have knowledge and/or experience in subjects they know nothing about are roundly ridiculed for 24 hours. That ridicule can be extended indefinitely by repeating clueless claims or making other preposterous statements. All the law requires is filing a notice for each ridiculous statement made in the Magistrate Court having jurusdiction. These notices last indefinitely.

This rule applies to all natives and corporate persons regardless of their years of service with the Mickey Mouse Club or being registered as an active Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, clay said:

Yep that's what I read too. Nothing about 24 hours or the warning expiring just the fact that you have to make a complaint before the police can act. Just makes sense that you can't expect the police to act without a complaint or the police witnessing  the law being broken.

The trespass takes place whether there is a warning or police involved. Trespass is a civil as well as criminal offense so even if the police are never involved the trespasser can be sued and the standard of proof is much lower in a civil suit with the penalty only limited by the bounds of the trespasser's damage to the owners rights.

I'm certainly no expert but Mike's meteorite find appears genuine to me. I doubt he trespassed to find it.  :)

 

The 24 hour bit is just what I’ve been told by police responding to my own complaints. It’s not the letter of the law, but is quite possibly part of the common law as set by precedent.

 And yes, Mike’s finds are fantastic, and I’m sure were not acquired through trespassing.

Edited by d_day

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