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have no idea how to cut and paste. below is two articles on the solar system.

How "Times" were changed-- a short review of the Works Of Immanuel Velikoysky. The scientist who was deemed heretic by scientists. watchman - Wednesday 4 Sep - 2019.

CGI's Mike: if you find Immanuel Velikoysky interesting then you would probably enjoy Donald W. Patten.

rumor mill news has a lot of good history articles, old man in the desert has a lot of articles on Red Cloud and other history of the west.

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Velikoysky was a pseudo scientist and a plain nutjob. 

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did you read the two articles? if not, you are wrong.

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I don't have to read them. I know all about Velikoysky. He wrote excellent science fiction articles 

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Velikoysky was a Scientism pioneer. He replaced objective observation with belief and faith. He re-wrote the creation story and earth history where it made no sense from a faith perspective and did not pass any objective test of science. Then tried to sell it as scientific theory.

He twisted science in precisely the same shape as L.Ron Hubbard twisted religion. They came from opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum and wound up in a very similar place. Velikoysky was not successful because he tried to sell his product as fact to people who knew better. Hubbard sold his product as fantasy to people who didn't. 

Scientism is making a big comeback these days. Science deniers are all about disproving objective observation with firmly held beliefs. Anti-vaxxers, flat earther, climate change deniers, chemtrails, and a whole host of other "belief groups" are all based on the same system that Velikoysky leaned heavily upon.

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5 hours ago, wet/dry washer said:

did you read the two articles? if not, you are wrong.

That is simply not a corollary.

Morlock stated a fact and an opinion. Facts don't change based on your personal requirements. Neither do opinions. 

There is no arguing that Velikoysky was a pseudo-scientist. That is precisely what he was by definition. That is precisely how he reached his conclusions and why he is not considered relevant.

The opinion that he was a nut job is a widely held belief. His theories and conclusions stand for themselves and each man can decide for himself how nutty they were. I think Morlock's opinion is a very widely held one and I understand where it is coming from.

The discussion here is not why we don't buy in to Velikoysky's pseudo science. The discussion is why you do.

Velikoysky's theories fly in the face of science. His methods and conclusions have been debunked as fantasy for nearly 100 years. And as science and technology evolve and our body of knowledge grows they become even more ridiculous. If you want anyone to consider what Velikoysky has to say you will have to offer something to indicate it is not science fiction. 

You can't tell others that they are wrong unless you can prove you are right. And you just can't do that in this case. You can believe anything you want. Just don't fault others if they don't believe it.

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Speaking of climate change and rumors, I stumbled across this today. Pull up a chair!

"The US has by far the best temperature data set in the world. Most of the stations in the US Historical Climatology Network have long term coherent data. This is what the raw temperature data looks like- before NOAA starts tampering with it."
From 1877 to 2019...

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Stillweaver hillbelli said:

Climates have always changed and burning fossil fuels is the least of its causes for changing.

There! Fixed it for you!

Climate change is real. The science proves it. Our contribution to that equation is the only factor that we have control over. That is a scientific fact. Man has made a huge negative impact on the environment in many ways. Another scientific fact.  The impact of humans on earth is a major contributor to climate change. Another scientific fact. The burning of fossil fuels is one of the smallest factors in climate change. A scientific fact.

Controlling our use of fossil fuels is one of the most immediate ways to reduce our carbon footprint. Scientific fact.

Your argument is framed as a political argument to support a partisan position that in turn protects the hydrocarbon industry. It is a fact but it is wholly irrelevant to the argument. It is much like Velikoysky's logic. It does not really matter if climates have always changed or how much fossil fuels add to the change. We still must react to it. If not for moral reasons for economic and social ones. 

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1 hour ago, Dakota Slim said:

Speaking of climate change and rumors, I stumbled across this today. Pull up a chair!

"The US has by far the best temperature data set in the world. Most of the stations in the US Historical Climatology Network have long term coherent data. This is what the raw temperature data looks like- before NOAA starts tampering with it."
From 1877 to 2019...

 

 

A perfect example of pseudo science!

Applying a specific collection of raw data to support a pre-determined conclusion despite the volumes of other data that dispute it! The body of science as a whole has reached a completely different conclusion but pseudo-science just needs one data set and a willing mind.

If this is all the knowledge you have on the subject and you "believe" the conclusion it is intended to support then it becomes scientific fact to you!

Exactly the technique used by Velikoysky to present his theories. As long as you only looked at one data set it seemed possible. But with all the knowledge taken as a whole the scientific conclusions are quite different.

It is like a magic trick. You focus on something real and come to a conclusion. But there are things that you just don't know about or understand that are not part of your equation. In the end you wind up confused and amazed because what you thought was real wasn't. That is because you don't understand what is going on and don't have all the info. 

Pseudo science is coming to a conclusion using scientific data but not scientific process. This is a perfect example of using a single selected data set to come to a pre determined conclusion that the body of science says is otherwise. Thank you for illustrating this Slim!

 

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1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

A perfect example of pseudo science!

Applying a specific collection of raw data to support a pre-determined conclusion despite the volumes of other data that dispute it! The body of science as a whole has reached a completely different conclusion but pseudo-science just needs one data set and a willing mind.

If this is all the knowledge you have on the subject and you "believe" the conclusion it is intended to support then it becomes scientific fact to you!

Exactly the technique used by Velikoysky to present his theories. As long as you only looked at one data set it seemed possible. But with all the knowledge taken as a whole the scientific conclusions are quite different.

It is like a magic trick. You focus on something real and come to a conclusion. But there are things that you just don't know about or understand that are not part of your equation. In the end you wind up confused and amazed because what you thought was real wasn't. That is because you don't understand what is going on and don't have all the info. 

Pseudo science is coming to a conclusion using scientific data but not scientific process. This is a perfect example of using a single selected data set to come to a pre determined conclusion that the body of science says is otherwise. Thank you for illustrating this Slim!

 

Thanks Bob, but don't kid yourself. Pseudo science is rampant among those who create their research to achieve a preconceived conclusion. Those who want my tax money to fight the power of the sun will have a long wait. Some, in fact, would turn the entire US economy upside down in their futile attempt. It's like...

 

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8 hours ago, wet/dry washer said:

did you read the two articles? if not, you are wrong.

Thank you Wet/dry,

Everyone who has read the two articles confirms your logic that, "Velikovsky was a pseudo scientist and a plain nutjob." -Mortlock. Neither Donald W. Patten nor Immanuel Velikovsky have scientifically valid nor biblically sound arguments. My dad and I read his materials in the 1960's and we were easily able to refute his conclusions. Patten's writings are newer to me but equally invalid.

It is nice to be right once in a while,

Cheers!

billpeters

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2 hours ago, Dakota Slim said:

Thanks Bob, but don't kid yourself. Pseudo science is rampant among those who create their research to achieve a preconceived conclusion. Those who want my tax money to fight the power of the sun will have a long wait. Some, in fact, would turn the entire US economy upside down in their futile attempt. It's like...

 

That sure sounds like defense of a political position and not the discussion we are having. Pseudo science is not science regardless of who employs it. And how you would like tax money to be spent Is some other discussion that only you desire to have.

Climate Change Denial was one of several examples I used to illustrate a point. It seems to be your only reason for posting. I think that in and of itself illustrates my point perfectly.

Your argument is with the scientific community. Not with people like me who accept the conclusions of the scientific community. 

Just like Wet/Dry's defense of Velikoysky's theories, you are going to have to offer up some sort of logic as to why established scientific opinion is errant and your conclusions are correct. You seem to be at a complete loss to do that. It is not evident that you know anything about the subject outside of the partisan talking points. 

Why is it so important to you? You are free to "believe" in nonsense if you want to and no one is faulting you for that. Why do you get so frustrated when others accept the conclusion of the scientific community? Are you self conscious about the fact that you can't support your argument and science can? Or is it the fact that your politically motivated "beleif" is at odds with scientific knowledge?

You seem to have difficulty telling the difference between a "belief" and a "fact". You are certainly entitled to which ever you desire and it does not matter to me one bit. The disconnect for you is that you know others think your position is ridiculous. You can't defend your beliefs in terms that make sense and that bothers you a lot. My personal opinion is that you would be a lot more content in your position if you did not force others to point this out to you in public. 

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posted the articles mainly because meteorites can and do cause fire.

when posting me fall rocks on e-bay starting in October 2008 until late March 2009 when me got kicked off. received not any rants or rage that meteorites cannot cause fire.

kicked off eBay because me prices were to low. starting bid .50 cents a pound, averaged over $1.50 a pound. have 1,000-2000# in storage that were collected using a release magnet. they will be put on the the market for five cents per gram.

over eleven hundred collected with out using a magnet (virgins), without pictures, .25 cents a gram with pictures .50 cents a gram.

timing is important, might introduce them at the Tucson show or wait until next spring.

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39 minutes ago, wet/dry washer said:

posted the articles mainly because meteorites can and do cause fire.

when posting me fall rocks on e-bay starting in October 2008 until late March 2009 when me got kicked off. received not any rants or rage that meteorites cannot cause fire.

kicked off eBay because me prices were to low. starting bid .50 cents a pound, averaged over $1.50 a pound. have 1,000-2000# in storage that were collected using a release magnet. they will be put on the the market for five cents per gram.

over eleven hundred collected with out using a magnet (virgins), without pictures, .25 cents a gram with pictures .50 cents a gram.

timing is important, might introduce them at the Tucson show or wait until next spring.

For those who only require the "belief" that these are meteorites they are a bargain. For those that "believe" they are purchasing a genuine meteorite it is fraud.

Pick your customers carefully.

You know these are not meteorites. If you market them as such you are committing a crime.

The posts written in stone on Nuggetshooter Forums is all the law needs to convict you. It proves you know that these are not genuine meteorites and proves your intent to market them fraudulently.

Natives that mean no harm are cool. Natives trying to sell rocks as meteorites are criminals. They are taking advantage of others ignorance and gullibility to get money from them. That is nothing short of dishonest.

Don't do it bob.

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1 hour ago, wet/dry washer said:

 

timing is important, might introduce them at the Tucson show or wait until next spring.

If you show up with these at the Tucson shows you'll either be laughed out of town or you'll be prosecuted for fraud if you actually sell some. 

The outlook will not be good in either case.

Heed Bob's advice and don't sell them.

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have undisputable poof these are asteroite fall rocks.

also have undisputable poof that the meteorite market has monopolized.

only taking the time to give the market the time to clean up their act.

wish no one harm, just want to restore the market back to where it was, a happy place for buyers and dealers.

have caused no harm to anyone, why the threats to me?

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18 minutes ago, wet/dry washer said:

have undisputable poof these are asteroite fall rocks.

 

Post up the classification.

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19 minutes ago, wet/dry washer said:

also have undisputable poof that the meteorite market has monopolized.

 

This, too.  Let's see.

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when one is harmed they have to give the ones who harmed them a chance to cure.

simple, no attorneys involved to plunder both parties.

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2 hours ago, wet/dry washer said:

have caused no harm to anyone, why the threats to me?

I did not threaten you bob. I love you man and I don't want to see you in trouble. I gave you the best advice that you will get and so did Morlock. I told you exactly how the law would view your posts. You may not think it makes much difference but if you sell any of those rocks a defense would be impossible. You may think your "native" status makes it different for you but that is just fantasy.

Not only is it against the law it is pendejo. And pendejo isn't good bob. 

What about "The B Team"? We were going to take over the world! That isn't going to happen if you are peddling hematite in the alley. I'm too busy finding real stuff and learning real stuff to team up with a purveyor of questionable finds. You are on your own if you show up in Tucson trying to peddle a ton of slingshot ammo.

Life is tough buddy and sometimes the truth hurts. Only your real friends are going to talk straight to you. You need to listen to the voice of reason. 

I know for a fact that it is not the money that you want. You want someone to believe you have found a genuine meteorite.  So go out and find a real one that can be classified. That is what you deserve and you should keep struggling until you make it. Not sell yourself short and try to convince someone what you have is a meteorite. That is just giving up in my book.

Let's meet at Holbrook this winter bob. We will find a bucket full of those things and you can sell them on Ebay. Everyone will recognize them as meteorites and you can make a grubstake. Ill come out for two days and we will hunt together and you can have every meteorite I find. If we hunt hard we can find a couple hundred dollars worth. Maybe more. 

I'll hunt Holbrook with you if you forget about selling those rocks. I guarantee you will have real ones to sell after the hunt. Otherwise you can sell fake meteorites to people who can't tell the difference. Life is your oyster bob. You make the choice.

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pictures are worth a thousand words. how can one disbute these fall rocks after looking at them as they lay, along with the perfect cleavage some have.

all the customers received copies of the three x-ray spectrometer analysis reports signed by the owner of the lab. who was harassed by an I.M.C.A member. this lab has been in business since the 1950's to present.

also have copies of the I.M.C.A. president letters where he went into a rant and rage along with his members.

also have the altimate evidence that will be exposed at a time me feels is proper.

thanks for your interest b.b. lil b can can handle the heat without sweating. will play me cards when ready.

life is not about the money, it's adventure.

 

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without law there cannot be any transgressions.

1. fault; offense; crime.

do you see now why that trooper on 19th August was all smiles when he told me was free to travel on. his supervisor knows natives are not subject to any laws.

why do you guys get so bent out of shape over something that does not exist.

don't worry be happy.

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And without science, any rock with a crack is a meteorite that started a fire. I don't think anyone here is bent, some of us just prefer to side with higher education, oh and no worries bob, we all want to see you find a real meteorite. stay cool,

ht :thumbsupanim

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Actually our friend bob is a pretty shrewd dude.

At first Mr. bob made the same mistake as Velikovsky when trying to get his meteorite classified. He was trying to offer a fabricated reality to those who knew better. So he simply shifted gears and employed L.Ron Hubbard's strategy. He's going to offer fantasy to people who don't know better. Our friend bob is a marketing genius!

He can't get acceptance with the scientific community so he goes to Ebay with pseudo science (irrelevant tests and papers with red handwritten ink) in an attempt to fish for fools. No doubt he will have an 100% satisfaction rating!

He is going to sell those rocks to lots of folks and every one of them will swear what they have is real. All he must do is make them believe in the rock and they will never loose faith.

That is sorcery man! They will give him a few sheckles to seal the deal and he will have exactly what he desires. Fellow believers. A church of sorts. A community.

He has a ton of slingshot ammo. We are talking numbers here.

I am going to do exactly the same thing. I am going to buy a case of Sharpies and sell them as magic wands that can control the weather. I will include a map with Sharpie lines drawn on it as evidence they are genuine. Ebay here I come! I will only charge a little and offer a full refund if not satisfied. Ill have a 37% satisfaction rating.

The money makes no difference. All I am really after is a bunch of people that want to believe in something so bad they are willing to ignore reality.  I am not selling Sharpies. I am building a Church. Or an Army. However you want look at it. It is all subjective now that facts don't matter.

You may not think this strategy is successful. I think it is a whole lot more successful than any of us would like to admit. 

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