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100 year old artifacts?

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Heck in 30 years, I'm going to plant myself on BLM land! I'll be 100 years old, and no one can remove me! Ha! Ha! Grubstake

Edited by grubstake
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On ‎9‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 8:06 AM, BMc said:

https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r3/recreation/regulations/?cid=fsbdev3_022266

 Archeological resources including any material remains of prehistoric or historic human life or activities, which are at least 50 years old, and includes the physical site, location, or context in which they are found. (36 CFR 261.2) The collection of projectile points, pottery, or any other archeological resource or artifact is not allowed (36 CFR 261.9 (h) without a permit. Projectile points include ‘arrowheads’ and any prehistoric human-modified stone.
Searching for artifacts (man made objects) with metal detectors is discouraged, as any ancient or historical artifacts found may not be removed from federal lands, such as old coins, metal implements, or utensils.

Clay,

Here is the law that BMc posted about arrowheads. Is this applicable? Could this be why the BLM LEO's say that hunting arrowheads is not O.K.?

I'm no lawyer and I have no idea if this applies. But it sure seems like it would. At least for arrowheads. And coins. And metal implements. And utensils.

And at the end of the BLM publication I posted there was a short list of applicable laws with links. These are the various laws concerning taking items from BLM land. I notice there were many. Not just the laws that you cited. So maybe there are other laws that are applicable? Could that be?

There must be some reason the BLM published those statements. Some legal basis for the LEO's telling us we cant hunt points (and coins and junk) anymore... don't you think?

 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob

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BLM operates under law of the sea. Land is connected to land under the sea. 

They do not have authority or jurisdiction over natives on native soil.

It's been six years since they visited me camp, two sheriff deputies and two BLM, told them it would cost them $120,000 per day, or any part of a day for detaining me. They decided that they have other things to do, and left. Haven't seen them since.

Smiled at them the short time they were there.

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7 hours ago, wet/dry washer said:

BLM operates under law of the sea. Land is connected to land under the sea. 

They do not have authority or jurisdiction over natives on native soil.

It's been six years since they visited me camp, two sheriff deputies and two BLM, told them it would cost them $120,000 per day, or any part of a day for detaining me. They decided that they have other things to do, and left. Haven't seen them since.

Smiled at them the short time they were there.

And they probably smiled for a long time after they left.

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22 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Clay,

Here is the law that BMc posted about arrowheads. Is this applicable? Could this be why the BLM LEO's say that hunting arrowheads is not O.K.?

I'm no lawyer and I have no idea if this applies. But it sure seems like it would. At least for arrowheads. And coins. And metal implements. And utensils.

And at the end of the BLM publication I posted there was a short list of applicable laws with links. These are the various laws concerning taking items from BLM land. I notice there were many. Not just the laws that you cited. So maybe there are other laws that are applicable? Could that be?

There must be some reason the BLM published those statements. Some legal basis for the LEO's telling us we cant hunt points (and coins and junk) anymore... don't you think?

 

 

Maybe you posted the wrong link Bob? There are no laws even mentioned on that linked page.

As for the handout you posted before I have copies of all three of the Congressional Acts listed at the bottom. I've been studying and using those laws for nearly 40 years so I'm pretty familiar with them. I've already linked to and quoted the only one regarding arrowheads - the Antiquities Act. That Act clearly states that arrowheads found on the surface are open to collection without permit, fee or fine. Nowhere have I ever written that digging for arrowheads was allowed - just arrowheads found on the surface as clearly stated in the law.

You can read all three of those listed laws for yourself. You can search Google and get a bunch of greenie handouts declaring just about everything is illegal but you need to read the actual laws if you want the facts. I have an extensive library that I am scanning and making available in the Land Matters Library. That might be a good place to start your study if you really want to verify what I have written here and elsewhere. If you don't find what you are looking for there just let me know and I will give you a link to the law and work on getting a copy in the library.

I would encourage everyone to read the actual laws about public lands. We use them, we prospect them and we travel across them. I am of the opinion we should know what the law actually allows us to do on our lands.

Relying on handouts or web pages that kinda sorta hint there might be a law is the result of 40 years of city hippies working in the federal agencies trying to save the public lands from country hicks. They have failed in reaching their goal of preserving the public lands for weekend picnics with their urban friends. Country folks still hunt, mine, fish, drive, chop wood, spit and pee on "their" precious nature preserves. This generational failure has made them bitter and truth be told most of them have adopted the "ends justify the means" attitude towards the public they obviously hate. If they obfuscate and lie they believe it's OK because they are now the mid level agency management wonks that get to publish insipid baby blue cartoons to threaten the public should they step on their dreams again.

It's not legal to dig up native settlements on public lands or bodies of any race anywhere. It's illegal to pollute public rivers, lakes and streams or burn public forests. It is still illegal to steal stuff that belongs to other people or any government. The laws really haven't changed much in our lifetime but the public perception of what the law is have changed quite a bit. Ultimately that is my point. If you don't know what the actual law governing your activities is it is no longer safe to assume your public servants will help you understand. They aren't legally responsible, they aren't well informed and they aren't looking out for your best interests.

Personally I would prefer to stick to a discussion of the law. That is where the rubber meets the road. Somehow any discussion of what the law actually says or what it means ends up turning into a contest to see who has the cutest pink or blue bunny on their cartoon handout. I get that, the law is boring and makes people's heads hurt. Of course the alternative to learning the actual law is more colorful and misleading cartoons. :grr01:

Here is probably the easiest resource for looking up Federal laws like the list of three found on your cartoon handout. Cornell University They provide all of the U.S. Code (Federal law) - you can just browse through if you have a few years to kill until your beer gets cold or you can use the search function.That's usually where I link people to that show an interest in a particular subject because it has links to all the changes through time to each law.

In my opinion the only way we are ever going to be able to shake off our ignorance about our rights on the public lands is to get educated. I'm willing to help with that goal but I'm not the kind to chase another dog's tail. If you want to present some laws that back up your beliefs about those handouts I'm more than willing to be educated. If you just want me to disprove every silly or misleading statement you find on the interwebs I just don't have the time or inclination.

 

Edited by clay

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So you really can shed no light on why the BLM is saying one thing and you are saying another? 

I really want to believe you Clay. You are burning a lot of calories trying to convince me. But the BLM publications make it crystal clear. And I have discussed it with the LEO's in the field.

So just to play it safe I am going to assume what the BLM says is true. And I also suggest anyone else do the same lest they find the agency publications and the officers are right and the guy on the interweb forum was incorrect.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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Ronald Regan engaged this very debate during his Presidency when he pardoned his friend whom was cited on BLM land for  picking up an arrow head he spotted while riding his horse! Surface collecting is as American as baseball and apple pie according to him! it is one of the many reasons I still salute his picture every time I pass by! FYI He was also fond of chopping wood and chainsaw carving. 

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I was approached while I was digging a detector hit on the California coast by a Game Officer, He asked me what I was doing?I looked (past my detector)and up  at him and replied "I am Fishing" he pulled out his pen and began writing, He then asked what I was fishing for? I replied " steel head that is what the detectors is for!" he got offended and told me I could not detect on the beach. I asked him what law forbids it and he could not answer the question.  He made a few long radio calls and went away mad! I had already checked the laws regarding that beach and there was nothing prohibiting metal detecting below the high tide mark on that state beach. I am making two points here, first laws are different everywhere you go so you have to research your location to be safe! The second point I am making is that when government or it's agents give me Stupid, I give it right back to them! I call it the Forest Gump Defense!. 

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My BLM contact (Geneveive R. out of the Las Cruces BLM office) says that the policy is not to cite offenders but to simply confiscate the artifacts in possession. If there is trouble they will arrest for resisting and for removing artifacts from federal land under 36.CFR.261.9. The very same law that BMc cited in my re-post above. How that works with the laws Clay has cited I don't know.

She indicated that metal detectors are not a concern unless the person is in proximity of an historic or cultural site. Then their strategy is to stop, question and observe. There is no specific issue with detecting but there is for digging artifacts. So it is a bit of a conundrum. Detecting is not a crime but it is reason for an officer to have concern. If they see any sort of rusted metal or you have dirty knees or hands they can use that as reasonable suspicion and request that you be searched.

She said that there are places all over where digging for treasures and artifacts are a problem. There are also many historic and cultural sites. So no matter where you are the officer can justify questioning about a detector. And depending on the answer they can usually justify a physical search. If there is any resistance to that they can (if they choose) restrain or arrest. 

She says most of the time folks are willing and just give up the arrowheads (or whatever else they may be hunting for). Only once or twice has someone refused to cooperate and they had to press the issue. Those folks get to argue their knowledge of the law in court in front of a judge.

So that is what I found out this morning. Take it with as many grains of salt as you wish. 

Bob

Edited by Bedrock Bob

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36.CFR.261.9 is not a law. :grr01:

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10 minutes ago, clay said:

36.CFR.261.9 is not a law. :grr01:

And I am not a lawyer.

Maybe I am citing it wrong or presenting it wrong. But that is not the issue. The issue is what the LEO is going to do when he/she sees you with a detector or an arrowhead. And THAT is crystal clear to everyone. 

Edited by Bedrock Bob

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45 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

My BLM contact (Geneveive R. out of the Las Cruces BLM office) says that the policy is not to cite offenders but to simply confiscate the artifacts in possession. If there is trouble they will arrest for resisting and for removing artifacts from federal land under 36.CFR.261.9. The very same law that BMc cited in my re-post above. How that works with the laws Clay has cited I don't know.

She indicated that metal detectors are not a concern unless the person is in proximity of an historic or cultural site. Then their strategy is to stop, question and observe. There is no specific issue with detecting but there is for digging artifacts. So it is a bit of a conundrum. Detecting is not a crime but it is reason for an officer to have concern. If they see any sort of rusted metal or you have dirty knees or hands they can use that as reasonable suspicion and request that you be searched.

She said that there are places all over where digging for treasures and artifacts are a problem. There are also many historic and cultural sites. So no matter where you are the officer can justify questioning about a detector. And depending on the answer they can usually justify a physical search. If there is any resistance to that they can (if they choose) restrain or arrest. 

She says most of the time folks are willing and just give up the arrowheads (or whatever else they may be hunting for). Only once or twice has someone refused to cooperate and they had to press the issue. Those folks get to argue their knowledge of the law in court in front of a judge.

So that is what I found out this morning. Take it with as many grains of salt as you wish. 

Bob

It's obvious you are not only not a lawyer you don't have a clue how the American government administration works. That's OK because I'm going to educate you a little right here.

You may have spoken to a BLM field office person and they may have discussed policy with you. All that seems possible and even plausible. So far so good no reason to doubt any of that.

I'm calling made up BS on your part about your claim that that a BLM agent ever said "If there is trouble they will arrest for resisting and for removing artifacts from federal land under 36.CFR.261.9." Here's the thing Bob - you made up that part.  Straight up bro.

You see 36.CFR.261.9 is a Forest Service rule. It has nothing to do with the BLM. The BLM and the Forest Service aren't even in the same part of the government. The BLM is a bureau of the Interior Department and the Forest Service is an agency of the Agriculture department. No BLM employee could ever ticket you for a violation of a Forest Service rule. You would be hard pressed to even find a BLM employee that knows what 36.CFR.261.9 is.   More stuff you probably should read.

A BLM person claiming they would ticket you for 36.CFR.261.9 would be the same if you called your local New Mexico sheriff and they claimed they could write you a ticket for violating a law in New York. Ain't gonna happen - ever.

You are a smart guy. I like your stories and humor. Why a nice guy like yourself would charge into a discussion like this armed with nothing but your opinion is a puzzlement to me. Now you are starting to look like a guy that would rather win an argument than know the truth. I hate to think of you that way Bob. How about we start over here with some facts and leave the BS behind? I'm willing to clean the slate if you are. :shake2:

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Maybe this will help.

(1780-1820) around 280-300 laws, eighty thousand words. Today, around 100 million laws, 280,000 words. Severe mental illness and stupidity by governments.

Verona treaty history, attorneys as foreign agents as privateer's free to plunder natives wealth.

All life is native, ignore the artificial or fictitious corporate sewage system, and be happy.

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10 minutes ago, wet/dry washer said:

 

(1780-1820) around 280-300 laws, eighty thousand words. Today, around 100 million laws, 280,000 words. Severe mental illness and stupidity by governments.

 

So there's laws that contain no words?

100 million?  Who counted all that?

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An excellent and direct answer to my question, aside from the condescending remarks and disparaging personal observations.  Thanks. If what you say is true then this law that BMc and BLM cited applies only to National Forest land?

I am assuming that BLM land has a similar law but I have no idea if they do or not. I am assuming they have something to back up the policy. Maybe they don't!

I have no idea about the details of the law nor do I give a poot. All I know is what I am told. And I am told by the BLM under no uncertain terms they intend to confiscate any surface collected arrowheads and are going to leave it up to me to fight it in court. And they are going to check me out really good if they see a detector. So that is the info that I take to the bank.

You say the law says different and I won't even try to argue with that. Nor am I going to argue with the BLM LEO in the field. 

All I know was what I was told this morning. I asked about the law and paraphrased what she told me. I would have no basis for believing or disbelieving that info any more than yours. This is not about who is right or wrong. You claim to be right about the law and I don't dispute that. You don't seem to be willing to allow me to discuss a strategy for what happens in the field, outside of the context of the letter of the law. That is where our disconnect comes from.

You seem to focus on the technical errors in my posts rather than the meaning. Take a small step back from my clumsy law references and look at it from the perspective of a detectorist developing a strategy to hunt an area without problems. Suddenly it all comes into perspective! The law is certainly important but only one small factor in the overall equation. Education indeed!

This is about what happens in the field, not in court. And she is the one calling the shots in the field. Not you. And not the written law. What may happen in the field when a BLM LEO sees you with a detector or an arrowhead is clear, even if my knowledge and citation of the laws are deeply flawed. And this is the point that you have resisted so staunchly. It is the only point that I have been trying to make. 

My suggestion is to call just like I did and base your detecting and surface collecting strategy accordingly. Knowing the law and staying within it is not going to keep you from being questioned and possibly searched. And they obviously intend to confiscate all artifacts whether they can cite for it or not. If detecting itself is not illegal, it does put the detectorist in a position that they must plan for. As well as the person who is picks up a surface point and feels confident they have done nothing wrong. 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob

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23 minutes ago, LukeJ said:

So there's laws that contain no words?

100 million?  Who counted all that?

It is the word sharing program. They are trying to reduce paperwork. :)

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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For those who happen to be on a salt free diet, (I'm not), and as a former L.O.E., I would always advise to err on the side of caution. Discretion, truly is the better part of Valor . . . 

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1 hour ago, LukeJ said:

So there's laws that contain no words?

100 million?  Who counted all that?

 

1 hour ago, wet/dry washer said:

Maybe this will help.

(1780-1820) around 280-300 laws, eighty thousand words. Today, around 100 million laws, 280,000 words. Severe mental illness and stupidity by governments.

Verona treaty history, attorneys as foreign agents as privateer's free to plunder natives wealth.

All life is native, ignore the artificial or fictitious corporate sewage system, and be happy.

Perhaps the authority lies in W&I code 5150?

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1 hour ago, BMc said:

For those who happen to be on a salt free diet, (I'm not), and as a former L.O.E., I would always advise to err on the side of caution. Discretion, truly is the better part of Valor . . . 

Well put BMc. This is exactly what I am saying. 

 

_____________________

If you don't want to be questioned don't put yourself in the position. Even though what you may be doing is perfectly legal it might be best to keep it on the QT. If things go south you better be prepared to react properly even if you are getting a bum deal. Most of the time things will be just fine. But expect to be treated like a grave robber if the right circumstances fall into place.

A hypothetical worst case scenario is the one where everyone is right and everyone is wrong...

You are out in your honey hole detecting just like you have done for years. You are doing nothing wrong. A BLM truck comes down the road. A young lady with a badge and a swagger gets out of the car. She has a pack of cigarettes rolled up in her shirt sleeve and a butch haircut.

She gives you that authority crap. You bristle. So does she. She wants to teach you who is the boss so she demands you turn your pockets inside out. You refuse. You are out here minding your own business and you just don't have to answer to her crap. You are doing nothing wrong! Clay said so!

She tells you to turn around and put your detector on the ground. You refuse. She has no right! She grabs your arm. You scuffle but she is really strong. As she snaps those cuffs on you, you notice she smells like Drakkar Noir. She has whipped your fanny.

The next morning the charges are resisting arrest. All your stuff is locked up and they hand you your shoes and a summons about daybreak. You get a lawyer for $500 and go to your hearing ready to tell them all about how you were just hunting meteorites and you had the full right to do it. But you never get the chance to tell your story. Because the LEO is not going to show up. The judge either dismisses or reschedules. If rescheduled the charges are dismissed in a few weeks. 

Congratulations! You won! The law is on your side! Now you are left getting your truck out of impound and your detectors back. You are never going to see the nuggets and arrowheads you found.  Good luck on meteorites. 

 

 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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Following word definitions are from the 1828 noah webster dictionary.

Man; vassal liege subject or tenant; a servant, or an attendant of the male sex.

Woman; a female attendant or servant belonging to man or mankind.

Citizen; special class of citizen created by Congress; a municipal corporation is an artificial person, created by legislature, not by mother nature.

Sorry for not posting the above definitions earlier.

Natives seeking to do no harm require no governments.

Hate auto correction and the

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1 hour ago, wet/dry washer said:

Following word definitions are from the 1828 noah webster dictionary.

Man; vassal liege subject or tenant; a servant, or an attendant of the male sex.

Woman; a female attendant or servant belonging to man or mankind.

Citizen; special class of citizen created by Congress; a municipal corporation is an artificial person, created by legislature, not by mother nature.

Sorry for not posting the above definitions earlier.

Natives seeking to do no harm require no governments.

Hate auto correction and the

Thanks! Very informative. That clears it up a lot! 

Edited by Bedrock Bob

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Forgot word "men"; person's; people; mankind; in an indefinite sense. Men are apt to forget the benefactor, while they riot on the benefit.

Benefactor is mother earth.

Congress base their laws on the King James Bible, God created all things, man and woman in his image. Word "name" means thing. 

Never use the words "I" and "of"  I is corporate and of something.

Took me many years to figure out the truth, and thank me kids for buying the 1828 Noah Webster dictionary for a birthday gift, 2006.

Word kids means goats, greatest of all times. Only time me uses word of.

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Quick Story

I'm a southern Arizona guy. I first started metal detecting with my children in an effort to get them interested in the outdoors...6 hours on the boat didn't work. I had recently got my 1st detector and I thought we would try an area near Mamouth Arizona. History said it had one on the largest and best-producing gold mines of the late 1800's with a cable trolly pulling water from more than 3 miles from the San Pedro river up and down the hill.

There is a road to the west called Willow Springs road. Anyway, the detectors is new the kids are loving the new adventures, we drive in on the road and I notice a few white quartz stringers of disseminating white quartz on the surface a few 100 yards off the dirt roadway. So we park the truck off to the side of the road and hike the short distance with the detector in hand. Back then I always carried a 5-gallon bucket. We messed around there and detected the surface quartz exposure a bit. We were there less than a 1/2 hour. There was a bit of traffic on the dirt road. I have never been to Willow Springs but it is a destination for the off-roaders. 

The kids at my side (7-year-old girl and the 9-year-old boy) detecting looking at rocks,  I look up at the truck and there is Fish and Game truck and a Forest Service truck. The officers are out of their vehicles looking at my truck and me and the kids about 100 yards away. I feel the pressure of their presence and start to walk up to the truck. As I get close to the truck I hit the button to unlock the truck and let the kids get in. The officers yell for us to stop ( freeze ) freaking my kids and myself out. 

The officers ask yelling do you realize you are on state trust land? I can arrest you! Metal detecting is against the law, illegal!  He then moves up close and takes my detector from my hands. I didn't know what to say. My kids were so scared. I told them to get in the truck. I was a bit confused. 

They asked to search me and my vehicle. They told me they were looking for antiquities that I may have dug up.  I consented knowing that we had done no wrong and they continued to terrorize my children for about another 20 minutes at which time they gave me back my new detector and a pamphlet about Arizona State trust land where it clearly states you can not use a metal detector. 

Anyway 

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first it was agenda twenty-one- militarize all county governments and move all natives from rural areas to cities. agenda thirty- WWIII between armed natives and armed governments to reduce mother earth population to 450 million  slaves.

confederate general albert pike predicted the three wars in 1871.

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