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RE-WRITING HISTORY? Spanish Artifact Confirmed To Be From 16th Century.


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FANTASY OR FACT? Is it possible that Spanish explorers ventured further into certain western states than recorded history has indicated? This news story seems to bear out that possibility. You decide.

Spanish Artifact Confirmed To Be From 16th Century. 
Television News Story: By Megan McNeil |Fri 6:32 PM, Feb 23, 2018  | KKCO News Channel 11 News Grand Junction, Colo.
GRAND JUNCTION, Colo. (KKCO/KJCT)-- A Spanish artifact found on the Western Slope a few weeks ago had potential to rewrite history.Now, we have some answers. 
Staff at the Museum of the West found what's called a 'dog.' It's a small part of a Spanish pistol. Nothing like it had been found this far north before, and the discovery could change what we know about Spanish colonization in the US. The museum sent the part off for testing and just got the results. 
"The metallurgical testing is telling us how old the metal is and it's telling us a little about the composition of the metal and by knowledge of what the different smelting processes are, it's going to give us an idea of a date range," said Peter Booth, Executive Director, Museums of the West.  The testing shows the pistol was from the 16th or 17th centuries.
Spanish pieces this old are normally found in Texas or New Mexico, not in Colorado this far north. (Ed Note: And certainly not far down South in the Bradshaw Mts. of Arizona)

DOG-  ARTIFACT.PNG

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I'm thinking the crew at "Museum of the West" don't know a heck of a lot about firearm construction or history? What is shown above is not a pistol dog. It is a being used in the position that a jaw screw would be used. That shape would never work for a jaw screw because the "handle" would prevent the flint contacting the pan. I bet they had to drill out the jaw so that big coarse thread could be shown to "fit" the fine thread of an iron jaw screw.

A "dog" is one of the forms of lock used on firearms before flintlocks came into use. The major forms of locks before the flintlock were the dog lock, snaplock, breechlock, wheel lock and matchlock.

The dog was used to hold the flint back from the frizzen so the pan could be charged. It was essentially a half-cock position. When the cock was pulled all the way back to the firing position the dog would be released and would swing down out the way of the cock. In this picture the dog is the rearmost mechanism that is obviously used to hold the cock partially open. It is essentially a cam lock.

Screen Shot 2018-08-28 at 12.47.05 PM.png

The Conquistadors used matchlock style archebuses. Flintlocks came along much later and dog locks were not of any use on an archebus. Archebuses used a burning match, not flint, to ignite the charge, that's why they were called matchlocks. They had no parts that looked anything like the one shown in your picture. This picture shows the typical archebus of the time with it's characteristic  long firing lever like a crossbow.

early-matchlock-arquebus-3.gif

Here's a video of a recreation of the Spanish use of archebuses at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/SSy3Bl32OvY

The dog lock was mostly used by the British in North America. The Spanish used matchlocks. Eventually everybody was using flintlocks but that was much later.

So I would agree the "Museum of the West" is rewriting the history of North America, the Spanish and arms of the time. All based on what looks like an old brass spigot handle to me. Were guns of the time made with brass working parts?

 

Edited by clay
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Northwest Arkansas has a Spanish gold mine, tourist attraction. They were up in Minnesota also.

Jim Campbell in Yuma found a Spanish sword on a mountain top east of black mountain where Yuma has there TV and communication towers.

Spanish where the first to mine silver from the paymaster mine. They left a cart trail from there to the lower Chocolate mountains, where they mined silica to smelt silver. Paymaster landing on the Colorado River where they brought their ship's.

Pegleg Smith left his mark on a boulder near there. TLS 1825.

In the lower Chocolate mountains half mile from the Spanish trail. Found a 12" up-side-down U, carved into an iron wood tree. Was told it was a Spanish symbol for cathedral.

 

Edited by wet/dry washer
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Good response and nice presentation Clay! I believe the pointed heads could use your services up there. I wonder how much grant money is up for grabs . . . Maybe they will release more detailed information down the line.

 

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If an English designed pistol is proof there were Spanish colonies in CO, there's bound to be Aztec gold in my back 40

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Nice One LipCa! Be good to see how it all shakes out. Maybe Clay has some thoughts on the matter . . . ?

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Clay is both right and wrong. Conquistadors used the matchlocks. But the conquest only lasted a few years. Then there was the colonial period which lasted a couple centuries afterward. While the "conquistadors" did not fire weapons like this, the Spanish (collectively) certainly did. So it is kinda semantics here. 

And weapons had a habit of getting around. It is not like the tribes or the Genizaro could not have taken an old pistol to the four corners of the Americas without the Spaniard's help. Just like New Mexico obsidian is found in cultural sites in Ohio, so could Spanish gun parts (and other artifacts) be found in areas the Spanish did not frequent. 

I hate to point it out but you will notice that Clay's dissertation is completely devoid of any reference. He seems to be his own authority on the subject and just throws "facts" out with no support at all. I am not going to even try to debate the subject with him but I will point out that the researchers that are handling this use facts and objective methods for arriving at their conclusions. They do know what they are talking about despite Clay's comments. They use documented historical fact to back up their research. Then it is subject to peer review by experts in the field.

If you will notice Clay supports his claims with absolutely no reference. It sounds really authoritative but it is not objective nor is it history. It is a collection of facts assembled around a pre-determined conclusion. Then he submits his hypothesis to us for his peer review. It is convincing testimony but it is not science.

Sometimes Clay is spot on. He is a smart guy. Sometimes he just lays the BS on because he knows he can make it float and very few will take him to task. But when a fellow starts calling the experts idiots with no supporting references the reader should be very wary. This is one of those times IMHO.

Sorry Clay. You are over your head on this one. It started out as an artifact and wound up with your trying to be smarter than the researchers.

 The facts, the real facts are that they found some Spanish artifacts that were way out of bounds and the real experts are researching it.

If you have evidence to the contrary you should reference it and support it. Your opinions and knowledge may be immense but you just can't post your opinion and expect intelligent people to simply believe it at face value. Especially people who know better. If you are going to disagree with the researchers you are going to have to reference some body of knowledge (besides your own) to get there. Otherwise it is just a bunch of pissing for distance.

We all have to live within certain boundaries of objective fact. Even guys that think they know everything. No offense Clay but it is just the way that intelligent minds operate. Until you can offer a shred of evidence that this is not what the researchers think it is then you should comment as an observer instead of an authority. That is just my opinion and it was not meant to offend. It is just the plain unvarnished truth as I see it.

Respectfully,

Bob

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I haven't seen any facts or references from you or the "scientists" that are claiming this discovery Bob.

As far as "over my head" I'm pretty dam sure neither you or anyone else can provide evidence that the pictured part had any use on a wheel lock mechanism.

Now tell me your real opinion about what matters. Have you ever found or seen a 500 year iron part that has been exposed to the elements looking anything like the part shown? :4chsmu1:

With no facts or references whatsoever provided by the finders occams razor is about all we have to go on. Now there is a link to a reference for you.

Thanks for sharing your opinion though. Always good to hear what's on your mind!

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A Taco or Burrito would be good, only watch out for the arsenic and ground glass . . . Why does it have to degenerate into personal name calling and King of the Roost? Talk about finding a happy place . . . Ding, ding, corners please! Socrates will come through for us eventually, as he usually does.  

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https://www.dictionary.com/browse/respect
Respect: noun. an attitude of deference, admiration, or esteem; regard. the state of being honored or esteemed . . .
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/respect
respect meaning: 1. admiration felt or shown for someone or something that you believe has good ideas or qualities: 
2. politeness, honor, and care shown ...

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The photograph of the "dog" appears to be two gun parts mated together. An older corroded part, and a part that doesn't seem to have signs of corrosion. Older/newer possibility . . .?

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It does. Wonder if they found both the male and female pieces? Once they finish sifting, sorting, identifying, and testing; maybe we will find out.

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35 minutes ago, LipCa said:

sure looks like the same thread...

Clipboard.jpg

Yup. And because the whole mechanism is turned 90 degrees that "spigot handle" would not interfere with anything would it?

Many replacement gun parts were made of brass until technology came to the new world. A broken screw could have been replaced with a brass casting or a re-purposed part cabbaged from another mechanism. Making a replacement steel screw would have been very difficult during that period. And that screw could have been replaced a hundred years after it was broken too. We just don't know!

We aren't talking about re writing history here. It was just a piece of a pistol (and a wagon load of other crap) found out of bounds. That does not mean the Spanish colonized the western slopes nor does it mean the pistol part is not what the researchers say it is. It means no one really knows what the heck is going on and a few people are doing their best to figure it out.  

No matter how bad we want the Spanish to have ventured the entire west. No matter how much we know about guns. No matter how bad we want to ridicule people who are professional archeologists, it remains a mystery. 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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52 minutes ago, BMc said:

It does. Wonder if they found both the male and female pieces? Once they finish sifting, sorting, identifying, and testing; maybe we will find out.

No it doesn't. You won't find a single dog screw with a "handle" on the end. The top of the screw was used as the thumb hold when cocking the wheel spring. In later periods the cock handle was incorporated into the anvil extension but we are talking 500 years ago not 350 or 400 years - right? If there was a handle or extension on the screw 50% of the time pulling on it would result in the flint falling out of the anvil dog.

Before the Bob's brain explodes in joy over questioning the knowledge of his fellow posters I probably should reveal some of my own credentials. I have personally handled more archebuses, matchlocks, wheel locks and flintlocks than all the pictures you will ever find on the internet. I worked with Jemison for almost three years at what was, at the time, considered the best arms and armory house in the world. During that time I handled thousands of antique pistols, rifles, cannon, and hand weapons. Virtually every single piece I worked with would involve a lesson in the parts, function and history from Jemison. I might just know stuff without making it up.

Further on to period wheel locks. 500 years ago a wheel lock pistol was like a Maserati. Only royalty could afford them, they were individually made to order, they included a lot of exotic new technology and they would break or misfire with ease and regularly. They were essentially jewelry for really rich guys who felt more macho with a sword and a pistol. They were almost all made in Germany as expensive beautiful art.

Now explain to me how royalty ended up in Northwestern Colorado with a broken Maserati "repaired" with a Volkswagon part that would fail 50% of the time? Anything even remotely plausible would be acceptable as a hypotheses for the folks at the new Museum in Grand Junction.

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Clay, If I'm interpreting the context of what you're saying correctly, ie,  ("Only royalty could afford them, they were individually made to order, they included a lot of exotic new technology and they would break or misfire with ease and regularly. They were essentially jewelry for really rich guys who felt more macho with a sword and a pistol. They were almost all made in Germany as expensive beautiful art") based upon your knowledge and expertise, how does the rondel dagger reportedly found with the "dog" fit into the scenario, if at all? Possibly, beginning to sound like an incremental association with the cache of a Nobleman or relating in someway to Nobility? Or?

RONDEL DAGGER.PNG

RONDEL DAGGER-2.PNG

RONDEL DAGGER-3.PNG

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By the way, I believe that LipCa was referring to the thread, having used the word thread, not necessarily the handle. That is if I understood him correctly . . .

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5 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I just gave you my opinion Clay. Any debate is between you and the experts that you are disagreeing with.

I was honest and respectful. I am sorry it hurt your feelings.

Thanks for removing the offensive turd and chest beating stuff from your post. I will do the same with my reply.

 

Uh Oh! too late to edit, I guess you win.

Edited by clay
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5 hours ago, clay said:

I haven't seen any facts or references from you or the "scientists" that are claiming this discovery Bob.

Is your chest all bruised up or are the turds you are floating in providing insulation? :inocent:

As far as "over my head" I'm pretty dam sure neither you or anyone else can provide evidence that the pictured part had any use on a wheel lock mechanism.

Now tell me your real opinion about what matters. Have you ever found or seen a 500 year iron part that has been exposed to the elements looking anything like the part shown? :4chsmu1:

With no facts or references whatsoever provided by the finders occams razor is about all we have to go on. Now there is a link to a reference for you.

Thanks for sharing your opinion though. Always good to hear what's on your mind!

 

1 hour ago, BMc said:

Clay, If I'm interpreting the context of what you're saying correctly, ie,  ("Only royalty could afford them, they were individually made to order, they included a lot of exotic new technology and they would break or misfire with ease and regularly. They were essentially jewelry for really rich guys who felt more macho with a sword and a pistol. They were almost all made in Germany as expensive beautiful art") based upon your knowledge and expertise, how does the rondel dagger reportedly found with the "dog" fit into the scenario, if at all? Possibly, beginning to sound like an incremental association with the cache of a Nobleman or relating in someway to Nobility? Or?

RONDEL DAGGER.PNG

RONDEL DAGGER-2.PNG

RONDEL DAGGER-3.PNG

Rondel daggers eventually came to be carried by merchants and common folk all the war up to professional knights. They were originally designed to slip between the plates of a knights armor.

There are three pictures of daggers in your post. I imagine the first one might have been a quality dagger at one time although the blade is suspiciously short and thick for a rondel. The second one appears to be more modern and fairly useless and the third one is so rusted and eroded it couldn't have come out of the same hole as the magic volkswagen spigot handle. I can't see the scale on the bottom one but if it's more than 20 inches long it should be pretty easy to find the maker and time period.

Obviously you have found some source of information on this find that isn't included in the TV websites linked to or at the Museum website. Bob seems to think they have published and been peer reviewed. Care to share your sources?

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53 minutes ago, clay said:

Thanks for removing the offensive turd and chest beating stuff from your post. I will do the same with my reply.

 

Uh Oh! too late to edit, I guess you win.

I have edited both of ya'll replies to remove any referrence to chests and turds!

I win! :inocent:

Play nice ya'll!

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Clay, The photos are just random comparative selections off the net. I believe you're right on the first one, it looks closer to a common dirk or dagger and doesn't fit the profile of the rondel. As I reviewed the link and press release posted by LiPCa: https://www.thegunwriter.com/23992/old-pistol-part-found-colorado-archaeological-dig/   I noticed that a Rondel dagger had also been found as part of the same archaeological dig at the Colorado site. I was wondering if the exclusivity of ownership of the Wheel Lock combined with the finding of a Rondel dagger at the site could have a possible cumulative or supporting implication relative to the theory of Spanish presence in that area prior to the previously accepted period. I noted that the dig had been ongoing for 7 years. That might suggest the evacuation of something much larger than a camp site or cache. Unless they're using Minelabs,  of course. I suppose that might account for the extensive time expenditure . . .

In reference to sources, I received the news article that I originally posted from a friend and fellow detectorist, who lives in that area and may be associated with the Museum through the University, I'm not really sure what the connection is though. (see news copy below)

Old pistol part found at Colorado archaeological dig

BY  ON

Kent’s Note: This story comes from the Associated Press

GRAND JUNCTION, Colo. — A pistol part found in a Mesa County excavation area could be as many as 500 years old and may bring to light some new information on Spanish colonial history in Colorado. The part was found in the Kannah Creek area about 25 miles south of Grand Junction as part of an archaeological excavation conducted by the Museums of Western Colorado’s Western Investigations Team. The dig has been ongoing for about seven years and the part was found a few years ago, but it has been undergoing metallurgic testing, according to Museums of Western Colorado Curator of History David Bailey. Referred to as a “dog,” the part is a spring-load arm that was used as part of a Spanish wheellock pistol, which dates to 1500 to 1600. The wheellock predates flintlock pistols and muskets, which were first introduced in the 17th century. The discovery is unusual for this region as most artifacts such as this one are typically found in Texas and New Mexico. It is believed that the Spanish didn’t come to this region until the 1700s. However, there are several theories as to how the part made its way to Colorado, according to Bailey.


One theory is that the materials were brought by a Spanish exploration party and traded with the Ute Indians in the area. Spanish armor parts and other colonial memorabilia have also been found at the site. Bailey noted that a rondel dagger was discovered and is undergoing testing. That style of dagger originated in Europe in the Middle Ages. “It’s kind of like a puzzle,” Bailey said. “We’re getting all the pieces but still don’t have a complete picture of what’s going on.” The digging will continue at Kannah Creek, but Bailey said the long-term plan is to put the new discoveries on display as part of an exhibit.

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I'm back to a few Spanish Exploring the West and creating some long term camps is not rewriting history.

I have been to some pretty remote places, as have all of us here.  Nothing like a new continent of course.  I have lost gear in those places and centuries from now, someone will dig up the M9 Bayonet Knife or maybe my Pick Axe and someone will try to say the Americans were here.  I look at all these claims as interesting whether the earlier Spanish colonization stories or the 1421 China sailing the earth, but they really amounted to nothing lasting at all. To me those stories are entertainment.  These artifacts and pre-historical items could have come from a single shipwreck blown across the Atlantic and then traded by Indians along the trading routes.

Under my definition of colonization, the Spanish were never really successful in colonizing the West.  They had very few, very spread out towns, with few families taking interest in staying there forever.

Even if these people showed up earlier, are we going to really re-write history?  We still say that Columbus discovered America, when he died thinking he discovered a route to India.  He actually did create the first Western Colony on his second voyage, but still thought he was in India when he did it.

I actually cringe at the thought of the research money being spent chasing down these pre-historic artifact research.  Those are probably not private funds.  I'd rather that money went toward paying down the national debt and getting spending under control.  I'm still old fashion and believe in paying my debts though.

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