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BRONZE RELIC FOUND NEAR GOLD NUGGET-WHAT IS IT?


BMc

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This "Whats It",  (along with a few dozen other relic items), was found in a permissive search on private property in the general vicinity of the  Wyoming nugget that was just posted.  The top little piece of the, (bronze) baton was dug first, and within a matter of minutes, I  had picked up a staccato of signals over a 30' wide by 100' deep area. The better part of 3 days (in between daily rain events), was spent detecting and digging items in this area. As much as I wanted to get back to nugget hunting, the continuing hits and recoveries using several different detectors, prevented me from just stopping and walking away. I would appreciate any feedback, guesses, and ideas about the possible origin and/or identification of the item. Too me, it looks like a dresser drawer pull handle or part of a cabinet door?

BRONZE DRAWER PULL.JPG

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Looks to me like more of a horse tie than anything else.  The one end was embedded in concrete and the reigns were looped around the baton.  At any case it's probably some sort of a tiedown.  

   Old Tom 

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I'ts fairly short in length (about 3" or so), and rather small and since it's in storage right now, I can't readily access it to measure it. It seems to be about the size that would have fit on a piece of furniture maybe. The metal blade piece that's bent down was sticking up when I found it which made me think that possible it was the part that rotated/twisted closed as a catch/lock on a drawer or something like that. The little baton pieces are really small, maybe a 1/4 of an inch or so. The square nut was used to tighten down on something that the object had been inserted into. Note the threaded shaft and space (1/2 inch?),  between the nut and the bent piece. I suspect that the item age deteriorated out of a piece of rotted wood since the nut appears to have remained in a tightened down position. Thanks Tom!

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It is a cabinet latch. 

It came from a horizontal door that was hinged on the bottom. (like a modern toaster oven door). I would say it came from a resonator that went on a chimney pipe of a wood stove. Or maybe a wood cook stove and oven. They often had ornate brass knobs like that and horizontal doors with the latch on top. Lots of things had cute little brass knobs back in the day.

It is a thin square nut. Those were used on stoves so you could cut them off easy when they froze up. You can see the little "boss" in the brass casting below the cuff where the knob rotated in the chassis of the box. It is tapered and not straight to keep it from binding in the hole in the door as things heat and cool. The flat spots on the bolt kept the latch cam oriented. It is clear that the brass hand was the knob intended to be turned to rotate the latch cam on the back. The little baton afforded some leverage. It is also clear that the latch has flats to keep it in alignment with the knob. Therefore it was designed to be turned by grasping the brass knob and the cam was meant to engage a strike plate inside the door and above.

The gap indicates there was thickness to the door. Most of those stove boxes were two sheets of metal with asbestos insulation between. Then they used an asbestos disk behind the latch cam. So the distance between that collar on the brass casting below the cuff and the cam seems to be about the right thickness for an insulated door and a bit of room to get behind a strike plate. 

Mechanically this is exactly a camper shell latch. Only instead of the latch cam facing to the side it faces up. And instead of a chrome "T" handle it is a little cast brass fist.

An old insulated breadbox or icebox would have had a very similar knob and latch. So would a barbers cabinet.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
Obviously carved by Spanish masons to mark a rich gold mine.
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  • Thanks Mr. Bedrock. That's, uh, "FANTASTIC"!  Seriously though, that's a great explanation and sounds like it's right on the money. The baton may be brass at that. It looks like bronze to me, but I'll defer to your expertise in the matter. I'm wondering about how the two little ends of the baton got broken off like that? I remember the old wooden cook stoves with their shiny brass accoutrements, knobs, latches, etc. but never saw anything that remotely resembled this thing. 
  • If you happen to have the time and want to check it out, I'll show it to you, along with some other interesting things I found with it (and one SPANISH?), find from the Caballos,) and even buy you a .50 cent taco at Pepe's this coming Taco Tuesday. Now that I think about it, the .50 cent Taco Thursday gig at Las Trancas would be better. They make a better tasting taco, and better ice tea too. Oh yeah, before I forget, I wanted to complement you on the clever, but innocuous dig at the end. I had been waiting for you to come at me with that silly Phallic Symbol rock formation, and although It is clearly a Spanish mine trail marker, and it is a hunting dog monument, it is definitely not a Poodle. It's a BIRD DOG!  A Pointer. Not a Setter. :kap:
     
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If the B&E, is closer for you, I'll spring for a red or green burrito. Bring a friend or whomever you like. The Pepper Pot is a little too pricey for me these days. I was wondering if any of your sources or contacts in the area had ever mentioned Colmenero's gold that was recovered years ago somewhere up in the Rodey canyon area? I've done some archival newspaper research, and I have interviewed one witness who personally received 11 $20.00 gold pieces that were dated in the 1880's, from a relative, who was a young goat herder in the 1920's when Felipe Colmenero was shot and killed in Rodey. The gold coins were allegedly sold to, "Tico"  which, as I'm sure you must know, is the commonly shortened form of a persons first name, and I was curious if it might "Spark" any interest? Green Chile Cheeseburgers, Robots, Giant Pigs etc? There's a lot more to the story, and the back story is much more interesting than the newspaper accounts.  :inocent:

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Mac,

I will do Las Trancas any Tuesday! We should definitely do it! I eat there all the time on Tuesdays. 

I do know of a story about some gold coins near Rodey (El Colorado). I heard they were stolen but the story was told that it was a found treasure. Who knows? I really don't do "that kind of treasure". I have a bit different angle on the definition of treasure and how to go about finding it in the modern world.

As far as your theories about the outcroppings I am going to give you my unvarnished opinions and tell you why I feel that way. No disrespect is intended but I am not going to pretend I believe the story either. If you are going to put it out there I am going to question it. That is what I do.

And I am probably going to give you a hard time about it too. But it is all in good fun. I hope you don't take my poking any more seriously that I take your stories. If we can exist on those grounds we can get along just fine!

Let's do tacos this Tuesday!  4:00 or so?

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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Fair enough Bob. I have followed your posts for a long time. Longer than you would imagine. I have seen the places you have gone, places you've prospected, techniques, mining methods etc. I admire your knowledge that you display in your analysis of various subject matters, including prospecting and mining, metal detecting and so on. You know your stuff and I'm good with all that. I always encourage opposing/questioning viewpoints, especially those backed up with supporting information.  I suppose it's mostly the presentation where we differ.  I can take it and I can dish it out and I wouldn't care if you gave me a hard time all day long. The problem is, from my perspective at least, a lot of forum members, especially neophytes/noobs (and lurkers), don't understand or particular care for an aggressive, "my way or the highway", type of criticism. Again, that's just my perspective. I find that the viewers who are OK with it, are usually the ones that know the person and are used to it. The reason I say that is, having read most of the major gold forums since they first started, what I noticed was, that viewers can be intimidated into not wanting to participate or post anything controversial, because they don't want to deal with with being attacked, and that aggressive confrontational style tends to turn them off so they end up going to some other forum site, or just lurking like I did for years before I signed up.To me, when things start getting too personal and insulting, egos and tempers tend to escalate and sometimes it gets out of hand. It becomes boring to read by forum members and the admin comes along and edits, admonishes, or shuts down the thread.

By the way, I had lunch at Chachi's yesterday just to give Las Tranches a day off. Hit me with an email link by PM if you want and we'll set up  a date/time that's convenient. 

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Bob, I have an appointment set up with the Animal Control Center on Tuesday at 4:00 pm, to pick up some catch and release cats that I will take in at 7:00 am that day. It's going to be too hot to leave the little doped up gatitos in the car, even if there was some shade, which is hard to find. Let me see if I can get a stand in to take the detail for me, and I'll let you know over the weekend.

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1 hour ago, BMc said:

Bob, I have an appointment set up with the Animal Control Center on Tuesday at 4:00 pm, to pick up some catch and release cats that I will take in at 7:00 am that day. It's going to be too hot to leave the little doped up gatitos in the car, even if there was some shade, which is hard to find. Let me see if I can get a stand in to take the detail for me, and I'll let you know over the weekend.

You kidnap and "dope up" kittens? ...Uh... Does that pay well?  :89:

That sounds like good old rural fun but I'm thinking even Bob may have second thoughts about "tacos" at 4:00. :00000067: The "bronze relic" might just tip the scales in your favor though. :idunno:

Edited by clay
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I dont see why everyone is getting their panties in a wad over a brass door handle. :snapoutofit: AzNuggetBob

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Ok let me put this way. If it where that old and buried the threaded iron rod and nut would be all but gone. AzNuggetBob

Edited by AzNuggetBob
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AZ Nugget Bob: How old do you think the item is? My guess is is that it's from mid to late 1800's based on the scattered pile of stuff it was in the middle of, like: old rusted wagon parts and wooden pieces faded and flimsy like balsa wood; square nails, hand forged bolts and nuts, small caliber hand cast round balls, (fired and drops), percussion caps, fired and unfired, 3 large flat flag stones with remains of a camp fire containing small animal bones, many pieces of metal slag and the chunk end of a lead bar left over from casting bullets, side plate of a percussion rifle or pistol, and last but not least . . . at the site, and nearby, there were a couple of dated coin recoveries, and an intact rimless 45-70 round stuck in the ground point down, with about 1/4 inch of the brass exposed above ground . . . The site was on a rise overlooking a stream about 100 yards away, not far from the old Immigrant trail a few miles East of South Pass, WY. The elevation is about 7500' with a lot of minerals in the soil, including iron stone nuggets (which the minelab ignored, thank god!) I got a little tired of digging them at 6-9 inches in the hard pan every 20-30 feet after the GB-2 would sound off on them . . .

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Clay: Yeah, after spay or neuter surgery the little varmints are pretty woozy for a few hours. I live trap the strays and feral cats and take them in to be fixed and get their shots, then release them to do yard and barn patrol. I'm up above Hatch with the alfalfa fields and arroyos around us so we have that Vibora problem which is a concern. The postmaster lady, got bit in her own back yard not too long ago, and I kill about 1-2 a year in my yard. The farmer across the street from me gets up to 4-6 a week sometimes, when he's watering or cutting his hay. Fortunately, he's usually on his tractor so he can run over them. My neighbor next door got struck in his front yard last year while watering his trees. He walked up on one, which as you know, tend to freeze and not rattle sometimes. He saw it at the last second and jumped backwards and fell down. It hit him on the flat bottom of his shoe, but scared the heck out of him, so we decided to keep a few cats around to help out. Dogs tend to get bit by rattlers but cats seem to be able to find them and either kill them or keep them run off.

After I feed Bob a few spicy tacos, washed down with several of those cold cervezas he keeps talking about, I doubt if he'll notice, or even care what type of meat he's eating. And I'm sure it's not the first time hes had to pick a little gato hair out of his teeth . . . :rolleyes:

 

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8 hours ago, clay said:

You kidnap and "dope up" kittens? ...Uh... Does that pay well?  :89:

That sounds like good old rural fun but I'm thinking even Bob may have second thoughts about "tacos" at 4:00. :00000067: The "bronze relic" might just tip the scales in your favor though. :idunno:

 

10 hours ago, BMc said:

Bob, I have an appointment set up with the Animal Control Center on Tuesday at 4:00 pm, to pick up some catch and release cats that I will take in at 7:00 am that day. It's going to be too hot to leave the little doped up gatitos in the car, even if there was some shade, which is hard to find. Let me see if I can get a stand in to take the detail for me, and I'll let you know over the weekend.

OK Bob, I'm good to go for the 4:30 pm Taco Tuesday Summit at Las Trancas on Solano. I'll be the Gabacho Viejo under the Yellow Carhart cap. See you down there . . . Actually, Las Tnancas has their discount taco special on Thursdays instead of Tuesday, but that works for me as well.

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5 minutes ago, BMc said:

 

OK Bob, I'm good to go for the 4:30 pm Taco Tuesday Summit at Las Trancas on Solano. I'll be the Gabacho Viejo under the Yellow Carhart cap. See you down there . . . Actually, Las Tnancas has their discount taco special on Thursdays instead of Tuesday, but that works for me as well.

Thursday at 4:00 at Las Trancas! I will be there!

I will be the guy with the poodle.:rolleyes:

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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On 8/25/2018 at 5:15 AM, BMc said:

AZ Nugget Bob: How old do you think the item is? My guess is is that it's from mid to late 1800's based on the scattered pile of stuff it was in the middle of, like: old rusted wagon parts and wooden pieces faded and flimsy like balsa wood; square nails, hand forged bolts and nuts, small caliber hand cast round balls, (fired and drops), percussion caps, fired and unfired, 3 large flat flag stones with remains of a camp fire containing small animal bones, many pieces of metal slag and the chunk end of a lead bar left over from casting bullets, side plate of a percussion rifle or pistol, and last but not least . . . at the site, and nearby, there were a couple of dated coin recoveries, and an intact rimless 45-70 round stuck in the ground point down, with about 1/4 inch of the brass exposed above ground . . . The site was on a rise overlooking a stream about 100 yards away, not far from the old Immigrant trail a few miles East of South Pass, WY. The elevation is about 7500' with a lot of minerals in the soil, including iron stone nuggets (which the minelab ignored, thank god!) I got a little tired of digging them at 6-9 inches in the hard pan every 20-30 feet after the GB-2 would sound off on them . . .

I"ll go along with the mid 1800's on your door handle, in fact it appears to me It looks to be of English origin.but when you keep throwing the term "Bronze" around it would seem your implying something of much older age.
Like many treasure hunter story writers.
Based on almost everything you say you found in your description I find almost everywhere I go nugget hunting old mining ghost towns?
and it doesn't sound like you found anything other than an old settlement. I know, that can be crushing to some people. almost like telling them their meteorite is leaverite or
or an Az.sex stone.AKA(just another frickin hot rock)
a particular tabloid comes to mind but I'm not going to mention names,and they are about as reliable as undocumented U.F.O. sightings anyway. But I have wonder, do you have anything to back up your story? you know, photo's,wittiness's etc. and when you put things like "reliable U.F.O.sightings" in your avatar.
And I don't wanna hear the aliens snatched you up and stole all your documentation and brain washed your hunting buddies too. :D
BTW best of luck with your pussy cat round up, but to tell you the truth and I have to say, it seems to me like it would be about as chaotic as herding cats on horse back.
I don't want you to get the wrong idea but some of the best treasure hunters I've ever met don't write stories about what they have found or what they are looking for unless they are fishing. Jmho.

AzNuggetBob

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  •  AZNuggetBob, I will try to respond to your comments, but in certain areas I'm afraid that I'm at a loss to understand exactly what you mean, and what you are asking.  In my reply,  if I have misunderstood or misinterpreted anything, please clarify, if possible, and let me know what the issue is. Your comments are enumerated and shown below in quotes:
  • 1) " I"ll go along with the mid 1800's on your door handle, in fact it appears to me It looks to be of English origin.but when you keep throwing the term "Bronze" around it would seem your implying something of much older age" By using the term Bronze, I was only referring to a type of metal. "An alloy, primarily of copper and tin"  I did not mean to imply or suggest that it was from The "Bronze Age" I called it that simply because the metal hand and baton did not look like brass to me.  It was not tarnished like a Brass object tends to get over time and exposure to the elements, and although the lighting in the photo of the object doesn't show its true tone, when examined in natural light, the metal surface appears to me to be similar to attached photo 1, (of a French Antique Bronze Door Knocker)
  •  2) "Like many treasure hunter story writers"  Bob, It's not a treasure story at all! Maybe you didn't get the memo, but as I explained, I had been nugget shooting an eroded quartz outcrop that looked promising, and having no luck, I ventured out into the sagebrush a little, kind of like Smokey did when he found the 6 oz nugget right off the road there in the sagebrush, or when Okie Jim first wandered up that gully in the Eugene's and started finding big gold ( and as many other gold hunters have done in Humboldt and Pershing County and still do, to some extent) You never know what you are going to find! You of all people Bob, know that better than most. So when I started getting a lot of signals, I decided to see what was hiding under/among the sagebrush. Maybe even sunbakers. (It's been known to happen,  (Smoky Baird) et. al.)  Like Jim Straight said, and wrote: It's a Magnificent Quest"  To me sir, that's not the definition of treasure hunting.
  • 3) "Based on almost everything you say you found in your description I find almost everywhere I go nugget hunting old mining ghost towns?" Good for you Bob! I'm glad you're finding lots of stuff. To many of us, it's fun and even exciting to run across something we find interesting or unusual to break the monotony of digging up bullets, trash and "miscellaneous mystery metal" as  Darryl Nelson of Reno Prospector's Supply was fond of calling it. RIP Darryl.
  • And Bob, sincerely, I would love to see photos of anything that you find in the future, or have found in the past (and I have muchly enjoyed your stories and gold photos for a long time)
  • 4) "and it doesn't sound like you found anything other than an old settlement. I know, that can be crushing to some people. almost like telling them their meteorite is leaverite or or an Az.sex stone.AKA(just another frickin hot rock)" Again, Bob, I never said, or claimed or implied that I had found anything other than an old settlement; actually, I think, based on the finds, that it was a just a wagon stop or camp site from the mid-1800's, but what's wrong with that? It's a link to history! And, after all, doesn't that have a a lot to do with why many of us enjoy metal detecting, and pursue the activity? And in reference to, "some people", Why you think telling me I hadn't found anything other than an old settlement would be "crushing",  frankly, baffles me. And why in the world would you imagine that I'd care one way or another, anyway? If you want to call it a settlement, have at it! Why should it matter to me? It doesn't!
  • 5) "a particular tabloid comes to mind but I'm not going to mention names,and they are about as reliable as undocumented U.F.O. sightings anyway. But I have wonder, (sic) do you have anything to back up your story? you know, photo's,wittiness's etc. and when you put things like "reliable U.F.O.sightings" in your avatar"
  • 6) Credible U.F.O sightings would be the accurate quote sir. That happens to be  one of my interests, and I included it because the question was asked.  I won't go into the subject here due to a concern about topic restrictions. We can discuss it on another topic section, if you wish.
  • And since you asked, I had planned to post more photos of the found items but due to the photos having JPEG extensions, I wasn't sure they could be opened. There seemed to be a problem with some of the previous photos I posted that were JPEGs  and they did not consistently open. But as a result of your kind encouragement, I will give it a try. If it doesn't work, I will convert them to PNG ex. and try again later.
  • 7) "I don't want you to get the wrong idea but some of the best treasure hunters I've ever met don't write stories about what they have found or what they are looking for unless they are fishing."
  • Bob, With Respect Sir: These late night/early morning high octane sounding renditions may appear to you to be models of clarity at the time, but at least for me, the next day, in the cold harsh light of sobriety, as I'm trying not to get the wrong idea, I must admit I have no idea; wrong or right, just what the heck you're talking about.
  •  I don't know what treasure hunters write about or why, and really don't want to know. I posted the photo of the "Bronze" or brass pull handle, as a curiosity, to see if anyone could help identify it. If you metal detect, sooner or later, you WILL, most likely, find this kind of stuff.
  • I included the rest of the information with the posting of the gold nugget photo that was found in the same general area, in an attempt to: 
  • Add to the discourse and vitality of the forum. Contribute to the general sense of excitement and anticipation of the upcoming Outing at LSD in November. 
  • And To share the location of the finds, in the event that anyone might be interested in travelling to the area looking for Gold, Adventure,  . . . and Whatever comes their way!

Antique French Door Knocker-1800's.PNG

Sq. nails, bolts etc..JPG

DSCN0534.JPG

DSCN0535.JPG

LEAD BAR-SLAG.JPG

BALL-CAPS.JPG

DSCN0557.JPG

gold coin-3 cent piece.JPG

3 cent-gold coin reverse.JPG

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