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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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25 minutes ago, FlakMagnet said:

…and the Spanish sign for butterbeans is what? I'm sure someone on here must know.

It is a poodle depicted in the "licking balls" position. That signified to all travellers that there was a gorilla head with a ham hock rock ahead where they could find plentiful butterbeans.

All trails were marked in this fashion. The King demanded it. There were stiff penalties for failing to abide by these rules.

I think that was all detailed in one of Kenworthy's earlier works. I'm not saying it's true but I want you to believe it and I will argue with anyone who expresses doubt.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
To add snark and a touch of sarcasm.
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oh okay, good…that's cleared up now. The poodle stuff I have seen is not usually depicted in this way but then again it wasn't carved in stone. I do remember in my research that I read the King loved butterbeans almost almost to the exclusion of everything else, except gold of course, so the rest of that makes perfect sense.

Happy that's finally cleared up. 

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4 hours ago, FlakMagnet said:

oh okay, good…that's cleared up now. The poodle stuff I have seen is not usually depicted in this way but then again it wasn't carved in stone. I do remember in my research that I read the King loved butterbeans almost almost to the exclusion of everything else, except gold of course, so the rest of that makes perfect sense.

Happy that's finally cleared up. 

Yeah, it was all about poodles, gold and butterbeans back in the days of the Conquest. They would carry rocks shaped like hamhocks for miles across the desert to mark the butterbean deposits. And carve mountains into poodles wherever they found gold. 

Where butterbean seams intersected gold veins the poodles looked confused and were always depicted in the "scooting across the carpet on their butt" position. This is well documented in Spanish records that were recently uncovered near where the Spanish were quarrying ham hock rocks.

This will change the way we view the Spanish and re write a page of history. It will undoubtedly lead to the discovery of rich butterbean deposits in the Bradshaws.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
To aggravate and irritate those who allow themselves to be irritated by it.

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I really am going to have to remind myself to drag random, out of place rocks all over hell and creation.

They'll be in the shape of kolaches, marking trona seams around Wyoming and Utah.

I'll photograph them when/if I do it, for later proof that I was in fact the ancient Czech explorer that erected them....

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On 9/24/2019 at 8:57 PM, Bedrock Bob said:

 

Yeah, it was all about poodles, gold and butterbeans back in the days of the Conquest. They would carry rocks shaped like hamhocks for miles across the desert to mark the butterbean deposits. And carve mountains into poodles wherever they found gold. 

Where butterbean seams intersected gold veins the poodles looked confused and were always depicted in the "scooting across the carpet on their butt" position. This is well documented in Spanish records that were recently uncovered near where the Spanish were quarrying ham hock rocks.

This will change the way we view the Spanish and re write a page of history. It will undoubtedly lead to the discovery of rich butterbean deposits in the Bradshaws.

damm you and your butter beans! I cannot diet thinking about them and choice ham.

 

Edited by Stillweaver hillbelli
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33 minutes ago, Stillweaver hillbelli said:

damm you and your butter beans! I cannot diet thinking about them and choice ham.

 

I too am a bean freak. I'm big on Colorado pintos and maple bacon.

It sounds like this DaveZ rascal has found a rich kolache seam in Wyoming. I discovered kolache in central Texas years ago. My son's mother was a Czech from the hill country where the kolache mines operate around the clock. 

If something is going to blow a diet it is that stuff. If Dave has discovered kolache in Wyoming I am headed up there with the cable tool rig to drive a coffee well. You bring the Bradshaw butter beans and we will be the fattest prospectors on the planet!

 

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Why go half way when you can throw in some cornbread and greens and be eatin' high on the hog? Diets were made to break and can wait!

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y’all are hilarious. what’s a riffler? 

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I ran across this article on the Bradshaw mountains.  Growing up in Arizona,  I never heard of such a thing related to bigfoot in the Bradshaws and them leaving stuff for explorers I find difficult to believe

 

https://www.phantomsandmonsters.com/2020/01/bigfoot-gifting-scenario-bradshaw.html?m=1

 

 

 

Edited by AZCurly
typo

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 You can't believe everything you hear or read. Someone obviously had too much time on their hands. I spent a good deal if time in the Bradshaws myself and never heard a single thing about this. Not only that, I knew some long time residents that lived in that area for decades and none of them ever talked about it either.

Edited by Au Seeker
Edited to remove Political content

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Came across this while looking for something else, and thought I might be able to shed some light on the subject.

My name is Mike McChesney, and on the forums I go by either my actual name or Gollum/Gollumses. I have been a Prospector/Treasure Hunter for about 28 years. MBc, don't let them dogpile you! Learn the facts and fight back! LOL

I lived in SoCal for about 25 years before moving near Prescott in 2017. My ex girlfriend and I met a guy in Newport Beach. More money than God, big mansion, and retired at 50. After explaining that he had for many years been a successful treasure hunter (not shipwrecks). It took me two years of being friends before he broke out the photo album with an 8x10 glossy of him kneeling next to a pile of gold bars about 3 feet tall by 6 feet long. My jaw hit the floor and I was hooked. He spent the next few years taking me around SoCal Deserts and Mountains showing me monuments, markers, etc. Around the Southwest US, there are literally thousands of rock markers. The vast majority just show trails, protected campsites, water sources, etc. There are also a very small number that guide the way to mines and cached wealth. 

Chuck Kenworthy spent about $250,000 bribing Museum Docents and Historical Library Archivists for copies of any documents that appeared to be treasure maps or to show markers or monuments. Of all the stuff he got, he managed to boil it all down to about 18 pages of hard information. A buddy of mine who is a Hollywood Stuntman was very close to Chuck for the last few years of his life, was supposed to get those 18 pages. Chuck's Son (Tiger is Charles N. Kenworthy; Chuck was Charles A. Kenworthy; and Chuck's Dad was Charles F. Kenworthy; to keep them correct remember F.A.N.) came in and took them. The things in Chuck's Books are real. While arguments can be made about what they mean, he never faked anything. You should also remember that Chuck shared a lot of information, he didn't give out much info on the exact spot to dig.......on purpose.

The first cache I found was due in part to Chuck's Information, in part to my Newport Beach friend's information, in part to some of my research, and some shooting from the hip. In 2012, I was seeing a bunch of people trashing Kenworthy. They never knew or met the man, so I posted the monument trail that led to about $20,000 in Colonial Spanish gold and silver coins. Some forums don't allow links to other forums, so if that isn't allowed here, mods please don't blast this whole post. Just kill the link.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-marks-signs/287281-monument-trail.html

Because of that event, I can tell you that stone monuments and markers exist. They may have slightly different meanings in different situations, but to say they don't exist only shows a severe ignorance of the subject. I have seen the Poodle and the Indian Chief. The great majority of the monuments and markers in Kenworthy's Books are either in Anza-Borrego Desert in SoCal, or in the area of the Superstition Mountains (40 miles East of Phoenix). 

I have seen the question many times......WHY BUILD ROCK MONUMENTS? The area North of the Gila River in the 16th and 17th Centuries was far to the North of their normal routes. Because there was not year round water (and it takes a lot of water to process ore) or stores to buy supplies (candles, tallow, chisels, buckets, etc), the Spanish/Mexicans could not work their far North mines year round. They would caravan up from Sonora in late Summer/Early Fall. It was then starting to cool off and water started running again. They would set up everything near a good water source and send their prospectors out looking for anything of value (gold, silver, iron, mercury, etc). They would stay there working until late Spring/Early Summer (when it got hot and the water dried up). They would hide their mines and head back to Sonora. That is why an authentic Spanish/Mexican Mine of the era has an entrance that looks like a rat hole (tiny)(easy to hide). Three maps had to be filed in Santa Fe, Mexico City, Acapulco, or Seville were; 1. Distance Map (from your Hacienda to the edge of the mountain range where your mine was located). 2. Edge of mountains to the mouth of the canyon where your mine is located. 3. Map of the canyon where your mine is located with an "X" Marks the spot. These third maps are usually heavily coded. If you don't have the money to go back every year, things in the wilderness change greatly. Trails wash out. Rivers change course. Springs dry up. Fires and bugs can destroy trees that have signs carved in them. Large boulders not so much. Most monuments are just "improvements" on existing rocks and rock formations.

 

Tired of typing. More to come.

 

Mike

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Believe it or not, I think I've seen photos posted by American Indians, of Native Americans, standing around those same rock formations (photos in your thread link). I don't have the pics anymore, but almost had posted a couple here at the time. Do you think the Spanish might have altered old Indian rocks?

NativeCelebs on FB had updated their page header with Indian signs used on rock carvings. I do still have it, broke into sections to see better.

IndianPictureWriting.jpg

IndianPictureWriting-sect_1.jpg

IndianPictureWriting-sect_2.jpg

IndianPictureWriting-sect_3.jpg

IndianPictureWriting-sect_4.jpg

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5 hours ago, gollumses said:

Came across this while looking for something else, and thought I might be able to shed some light on the subject.

My name is Mike McChesney, and on the forums I go by either my actual name or Gollum/Gollumses. I have been a Prospector/Treasure Hunter for about 28 years

The first cache I found was due in part to Chuck's Information, 

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/treasure-marks-signs/287281-monument-trail.html

 

Mike

Aloha Snackbar:)

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Its well known that Spanish mixed some of their signs in with pre-existing native petroglyphs and (rarely) pictographs, but in this case, I believe these are all Spanish in origin as they gave specific clues that led to a specific place. 

 

Now, as to specifically around Prescott and the Bradshaws. The Spanish have been in the area since 1540 when Coronado named the area around Jerome, Az the "Montanas Azul" (or Blue Mountains). A guy that has a piece of land on Orme Road (in between Hwy 169 and I17) found a Spanish Morion Helmet while clearing some of the land. One of the mines in the Bradshaws that is still being worked was founded by the Spanish in the mid-1600s under another name. The markers used for the original Spanish Mine were registered (and you can still see them) in the Mission Records at the San Javier del Bac Mission. The Peralta family (different than Lost Dutchman Peraltas) owned and operated the Valenciana Mine down near Bumblebee since the late 1700s (IIRC). 

BMc: First the bad news. I don't see anything that is a 100% monument. The last pic "COULD" be a heart at an angle. You need to know something about authentic monuments/markers. If the monument/marker is supposed to be a solitary one, there will 99% be some kind of verification cut into the rock showing it is man formed and not just "fortunate erosion". If the monument/marker is part of a trail of monuments/markers that somewhere it doesn't need verification as the monuments/markers that come before and after ARE the verification. 

Here are a couple of monuments that are easily identifiable as man made. Although you may not know what they mean, you know they are man made:

Bird Monument in Anza-Borrrego Desert:

birdmonument2.jpg

A wise old owl in Southern Arizona:

lou78.jpg

 

Enjoy,

 

Mike

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Okay, I'm not trying to put my foot through the Rembrandt here, honest. But here is my rookie question; That bird monument is a bird only when you are at a specific angle relative to it right? And the same with the face that Edge just put up (the owl I can't even see at all, but I accept that it's my problem). So, as part of the directions to these various markers are there also directions saying from which direction they should be approached? Genuinely interested. Thanks...

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Posted (edited)

:idunno:

Edited by Bedrock Bob
They all look like poodles to me.

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16 minutes ago, FlakMagnet said:

Okay, I'm not trying to put my foot through the Rembrandt here, honest. But here is my rookie question; That bird monument is a bird only when you are at a specific angle relative to it right? And the same with the face that Edge just put up (the owl I can't even see at all, but I accept that it's my problem). So, as part of the directions to these various markers are there also directions saying from which direction they should be approached? Genuinely interested. Thanks...

Hey FlakMagnet,

Don't think entire owl body. Just think the head with large round eyes and a short sharply hooked beak. There are about a half dozen symbols cut into that rock formation. In this case, the owl means this spot is where you get the wisdom regarding everything in this canyon. Its a very interesting place. The owl you can see as long as you are line of sight with the face.

The Bird, you can see easily for about 60 degrees as you are hiking along the canyon. Its about eight feet tall and sits on top of a ridge that's 3500 feet in elevation.

The face, I couldn't say, although it looks 100% man made. Without knowing the area, it could be 1000 years old, or it could be two weeks old. I also don't know the hardness of the rock. See, the features are quite sharp, so the rock is either very hard or it isn't very old. 

There are some large monuments that include both cut rock and shadows. I have a 50 foot tall heart cut into the side of a mountain near Joshua Tree (Ca). Its meant to be seen from a good distance. There are several large boulders placed in different spots around the periphery of the heart. So.......you have to be within 20 degrees (angle) either side to see it. The way the boulders are placed, before about 10am and after 3pm, shadows are cast across the heart making it impossible to see. In the Coronado National Forest, there is face (of either Coronado or Christ) that can only be seen in the Fall in the early morning.

JesusLeft.jpg

While I have several modern digital pics of the face, this pic is an old 35mm. There was no Photoshop of the pic. The rocks were cut in such a way as to cast the shadows that make up the face in the early morning for just a few months every year.

 

Mike

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11 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

:idunno:

Through the eyes of a furry

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

:idunno:

Don't know what part of NM you are in, but two large caches of gold bars were found using a combination of a map and monuments shown on the map. There are also tons of monuments along the "El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro" from Mexico City to Santa Fe. I'll explain for those smarta$$es among you who are mentally limited:

Nowadays if you are driving from Mexico City to Santa Fe, you follow street signs from El Paso del Norte (El Paso) that shows you are on Highway 25 through Las Cruces and Albuquerque, through to Santa Fe. Imagine it's 1620. El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro was a long road through the wilderness. Almost 1600 miles through some nasty deserts and mountains. First, you have to show where the trail is. Official maps were expensive and could become unusable with one big rainstorm and/or flood. Because the road was so long, you also couldn't bring all the water you need. There needed to be a way to show where there were springs and sources of water the entire way. 

Now, closer to Mexico City, where there was a lot of population, it was an actual road (these pics are not mine, I pulled them off of the internet):

 

caminoreal1.jpg

caminoreal2.jpg

 

Here is a section of the Camino Real near Zacatecas, Mex. For those that don't know, Zacatecas is in the mountains:

caminoreal3.jpeg

 

......and here are a couple from areas North of the current US/Mexico Border:

caminoreal4.jpg

caminoreal5.jpg

 

In the 17th Century, maps MIGHT have been accurate to within a couple of miles (if you even had an official map). Markers and Monuments were needed to show travelers where the trail was, where water sources were.

 

Now to the subject of Poodles. LOL I'm still on the fence with this one. Since Chuck Kenworthy included this in his book, I have to assume that this was written about somewhere in the documents he received from Libraries and Museums over the years. Without knowing for certain, my guess is that while building a Camino Real (Royal Road), the builders/surveyors came across a large rock that looked like a Poodle, so they made the connection. I have seen nothing in any official Spanish relacion, jornada, or cedula that mentions the repeated use of Poodles as a monument denoting a Royal Road. In order for the Poodle Theory to have any kind of provenance (to me) there would need to be several instances of the Poodle Monuments along Royal Roads. Luckily, we know the routes of the four largest Spanish Royal Roads, but since it has nothing to do with treasure or mines, most put it low on their list to research (myself as well).

 

Mike

EDIT:

While Kenworthy's Pic does kind of look like a Poodle in a sitting upright pose, I just hear in my head "There is no Dana.....only ZUUL!" LOL

Edited by gollumses

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:25r30wi:what you dont know about me and the Camino Real would fill volumes. :25r30wi:

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Posted (edited)
46 minutes ago, gollumses said:

I'll explain for those smarta$$es among you who are mentally limited:

Mike

Interesting method of introducing your ideas and beliefs to a new audience.

Has this been effective for you in the past Mike?

Edited by clay
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9 minutes ago, clay said:

Interesting method of introducing your ideas and beliefs to a new audience.

Has this been effective for you in the past Mike?

You can take care of Poodle Boy. I'm just too darn busy to play with this guy today. 

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16 hours ago, gollumses said:

ts well known that Spanish mixed some of their signs in with pre-existing native petroglyphs and (rarely) pictographs, but in this case, I believe these are all Spanish in origin as they gave specific clues that led to a specific place. 

Yes, I see they are not the same rocks. Think this is the photo I'd remembered. Water girls of a Peublo tribe, at the Acoma Reservation. The boulder on top, possibly carved out to hold rain water? Don't know what the boulder looks like on top or why water girls would be there, unless it is a sacred site and water is to drink by thirsty dancers of the ceremony. Makes more sense the girls have carried drinking water out to a site.

 

 

acoma water girls_LG.jpg

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Acoma water girls are water carriers. Here is old sepia print of them at a river in New Mexico.

 

acoma-water_girls-river.jpg

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