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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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Posted (edited)

Here is another Spanish mission with a kiva in the foreground. It is the Pecos Mission just east of Santa Fe.

pecos.jpg

 

This place has a long lurid history of torture and slavery. Killings and beatings. Worshiping a giant snake. Lots of kinky stuff.

I lived about ten miles from this (and three other) big pueblo ruins on (or near) the Pecos River just east of Santa Fe. This was where all the tribes came to sell their slaves. This is where families came to try and buy back their loved ones from the kidnappers. 

The Spanish "kingdom" was a heart shaped affair bisected by the Sangre De Christo mountains with the Pecos Pueblo being right smack dab in the middle just east of Santa Fe. East of that were the Genizaro villages serving as a buffer between the Spanish and the Apache, Navajo, Comanche et al. So Pecos Pueblo was a sort of gateway to the inner sanctum of the new Spanish kingdom from the east.

It is both mortared stone as well as adobe construction. The mortar is not limed mortar but clay, similar to "adobe". It was built by natives under the instruction from a Friar and did not involve skilled Spanish masons. It has a huge kiva that was hidden from the Spanish for nearly a century after the mission was built.

The area around the Pueblo is still bare from all the horses and livestock that passed through the area and stopped there. It has been an ancient village since about 1100 a.d. and the home of a few different "cultures". It is definitely haunted. And not in a  good way either. 

In Pecos everyone has dogs. They are (for all practical purposes) rez dogs. A big part of these ruins are the leash outs where the dogs were tied. A big part of the modern Pecoseno's footprint is still circles where the dogs are tied so that much has changed very little.

There are many dogs that are not tied and they roam basically feral. They have inbred since the beginnings of the pueblo and continue to inbreed with modern dogs today. In Pecos there is a huge number of mixed breed, dark colored black and tan shepherd looking feral dogs. Some appear more shepherd and some appear more bulldog, but the majority of canines in the area share a common look. It is the genetic influences of thousands of years of native dogs.

The people are the same. The word Pecos means "freckle". It is very common for a person who has one indigenous parent and one European parent to be freckled or have colored spots on their skin. The people of Northern New Mexico with strong indigenous genes are often freckled and that is the result of the mixing with the European genes. The people of the area were often of mixed race and it was named Pecos because there were lots of freckles.

Still no poodles. Nor poodles with freckles. Just dark feral dogs that have been breeding in isolation since about 1100 a.d.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
This is the only photo I did not take myself. The rest are from my camera. Sorry about the cloudy skes in all of them. That's New Mexico though.
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…and not a poodle to be found. Kidding aside, an interesting, educational and fun read. Thanks for taking the time.

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Posted (edited)

This here is the notorious Abu Chavo al Pecosani. Formerly known as Al Baddoggi. I just call him Chavo.

He is a rez dog from the Pecos Pueblo. He is pictured in the "standing tail" position. This means, "Ja Ja pendejos! I am the coolest dog on the lake!"

DSCN0096.JPG

 

He was found at about four months old fighting for his life against two grown feral dogs about a mile from the Pecos Pueblo. His back against a juniper tree and shredding anything that came within tooth range. The first thing he did when he saw me was run up in my lap and bite me right in the face. It was love at first bite. He is a real dog.

He's a stock example of a "native dog" from the ancient pueblos. Not really a breed of wild dog but a phenotype that goes back to prehistory for sure. As far as breed goes it is all in there and has been for centuries. There are many hundreds of them in the Pecos area that share his basic form. No doubt very similar to the dogs that have been leashed out around native dwellings for centuries.

Loyal, instinctive and wicked smart. Very New Mexican. He even barks with a Norteno accent.

Definitely not a Spanish poodle.

He is pictured above in his native element. Sidekicking on a trout boat somewhere above 6000 feet altitude in New Mexico. 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
I am considering hiring some skilled Spanish masons to carve an outcrop in his likeness.
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     Somewhat off-topic but related to Spanish Monuments in the Bradshaws; not all monuments were left by large religious organizations or a multitude of agents in the employ of the monarchy. Even though the penalties for evading royal permission could be heavy, many private entrepreneurs took a chance to undertake illicit trade with the Indians. These small business “contrabandistas” existed in many forms throughout New Spain.
     Spanish ability to enforce laws against unregulated barter was sporadic at best, not only because of a shortage of personnel to enforce such edicts but because of a general attitude throughout the bureaucracy, summed up in the phrase, “obedesoa pero no complo.” Translation; “I obey but I do not comply.”
     Examples of this are replete throughout the historical record. Prior to the 1776 Dominguez-Escalante Intrada into parts of New Mexico, Utah, and Arizona. Friar Sylvestre Escalante noted that, as early as 1765 Spanish traders had gone among the Utes for two to four months at a time. “They engaged in the vile commerce of skins even in violation of just prohibition,” he wrote.
     In spite of the danger, however, it seems that small, easily missed monuments were left behind, either as a tool enabling the trader to return to the exact same location on a later foray, or, more likely, to mark the location of a temporary interment in the event that the business deal with the local cacique fell through.
     I am aware of one such cache north of the Bradshaws and have seen evidence of the monument and a few  items of trade left behind - apparently abandoned in haste.
     The monument itself was a basalt cobble, roughly heart-shaped, and about the size of a man’s chest. It was mounted against a large sandstone boulder about four feet above the ground. Basalt is not found at that location. The nearest drainage containing such cobbles is approximately a mile away, indicating that some thought and effort went into the procurement. The distinction between the smooth gray cobble and the rough beige sandstone could be discerned by someone one hundred yards away, but only from a single vantage point.
     An approximate date for this venture is possible because of two items located in or near the cache. One, a gilt coat or uniform button. This button type was worn by the Spanish military between 1765 and 1795 and even later in the outlying garrisons. It was also worn on Spanish militia uniforms as late as the Mexican War for Independence ending in 1821.       
     The other item was a small coin, a one-real silver cob, minted in Potosi, Peru, and marked with the date 1773.
     Other items roughly supporting this time frame include a trio of brass crotal bells of a manufacturing technique that is usually attributed to a period between the middle 1700s through early 1800s. Numerous white porcelain trade beads, commonly referred to White Padres, were also abandoned in the cache.         
     Not directly related to the cache but found in close proximity were samples of chrysocolla and pyrite, two minerals not naturally found in that vicinity.
     One reason this would-be trader might have not been successful is indicated by another object recovered at the site - a deformed .69 caliber musket ball. It came to rest deep in a crack in the boulder near the heart-shaped cobble that marked the location.
     While other interpretations of both the monument and the objects are possible, taken together they strongly indicate that colonial Spanish activity occurred at least once in territory not too far north of the Bradshaw Mountains.

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There is lot of Spanish sign interpretation in the literature (Kenworthy's included), that attributes a heart shaped monument to be a symbol of gold. Any idea of an additional or alternative meaning for the one near the cache (except just as a location marker?

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On 6/25/2019 at 6:54 PM, Morlock said:

 

Actually the only thing that's scary about the gargoyle is the booger dripping out of his nose.:inocent:

Booger, yes, finally! :party-smiley-027[1]:

 

On 6/26/2019 at 7:55 AM, Bedrock Bob said:

If you think about it the Spanish's only competitors for gold in situ was evil spirits. They handled that one with one of about five variants of crosses. Pagan symbols were frowned on in those days. Inquisition and all.

No one else had the technology to mine and smelt gold. So hiding or concealing a mine was something the Spanish officers of the Conquest probably didn't do much of. Quite the opposite. They marked the trail and surveyed a line to backtrack on. The natives were who concealed the mines during the Pueblo Revolt and tried to erase any evidence. Not the Spanish. 

After the Conquest there was mining. But not by Spanish officers. By individuals under Spanish rule. They did things about like any other prospector would and they marked their route just like any other traveler would. The Conquest was over and it was all about conversion and colonization. The "Spanish" were not officers, they were land owners. They did not have "skilled Spanish masons" in their employ. 

They followed religious tenets much more closely during the colonization period. During these days the Spanish did not take slaves. There were indentured Genizaro and free men who did all of the mining. Not enslaved natives. You must remember that many if not most "Spanish" settlers were Jews that came to the colonies to escape slavery and persecution. The Apache, Navajo, Comanche and Kiowa were the slave traders. The population in the colonies were overwhelmingly Genizaro, not Spanish. These were converted people of native ancestry who had accepted religion, cut their hair and learned the language. Proto-Hispanics. For the most part they had no Spanish blood at all.

Spanish mines were marked with crosses. But after Juan Diego's vision in the mid 1500's the Virgen De Guadalupe became the marking over every place where brown men worked. There simply was no mine in the southwest worked by the "Spanish" that was not marked by the Virgen. And soon afterward the majority of the mines were being prospected and located by men who had very little "Spanish" blood at all and detested the "Spanish" and their rule. Then came the Mexican identity and the "Spanish" became not much more than an elite class of citizens that has lost much of it's influence and political power.

"Spanish" markings consist of crosses, depictions of the Virgen De Guadalupe, Arabic numerals, letters of the alphabet and mis-spelled Spanish words. There were a handful of recognized "symbols" that meant things like water, day counts, directions, etc. There were cairns, sight rocks, and blazes on trees. And of course there was good old navigation and triangulation using a compass, sextant and mapping tools. The major directional info was maps and verbal descriptions written down on paper. These methods were all in use from the time the Spanish set foot in the new world.

It would be cool to have a thread with some photos of actual Spanish mine markings and symbols rather than imaginary ones. It might be good discussion for guys who are interested in finding real Spanish sites and learning a bit about how they did mark and navigate. Maybe a factual discussion on the subject would be as much fun as an imagined one? 

 

As a counter point, one could simply start off with Clay's convenient mantra: "It never happened", in the Arid Zone at least. But it might be fun watching anyone interested in presenting the documentation that proved it. And make it about Arizona mines and mining. The NM stuff is cool for the kiddies but that's more or less the kind of stuff that can be picked up in any "AAA brochure" type publication or, "Roadside History of New Mexico". It's the Arizona mining stuff that is unknown and little known that's the topic (without changing topics again) ARIZONA! And it's obvious that a lot is missing from our understanding of the exploration and search for wealth in the "forbidden kingdom" And does it really make sense to mark a gold mine that is being concealed so it won't be robbed, with a common religious symbol that everyone knows about which says," Dig Here" ?

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On 6/25/2019 at 6:54 PM, Morlock said:

 

Actually the only thing that's scary about the gargoyle is the booger dripping out of his nose.:inocent:

Thanks for correcting the spelling! The visual of a nose "bugger" was off the chart . . .

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Since that famous quote by Hernan Cortez to Moctezuma II concerning a Spaniard's need for gold, many locations within the Empire used the heart symbol to mark gold-related activities. Did this unknown trader, working centuries after the conquest of Tenochtilan, degrade the symbol to mark a site containing valuables other than gold? Quien Sabe? But maybe, just maybe, in addition to any trinkets and furs, he had acquired an amount of raw gold and rich ore samples in trade. My understanding is that the cache was all but empty so any answer to his intended meaning is lost in dust and shadows.

Monument Detail.jpg

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6 hours ago, BMc said:

 And does it really make sense to mark a gold mine that is being concealed so it won't be robbed, with a common religious symbol that everyone knows about which says," Dig Here" ?

It makes a whole lot more sense than an outcrop that kinda sorta looks like a poodle. Or a rock that kinda sorta looks like a heart.

:25r30wi:

We know caches and mines were marked with the Guadalupe. We can see numerous examples of it clearly incised over caches and mines.

The "markers" you and your "buddy" are posting show no evidence of being shaped at all nor are there any other examples of the Spanish (or anyone else) using markers like these anywhere. This is completely imaginary stuff.

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     Bedrock, you are correct in that the items in the cache may not have been put there by a Spaniard. Such goods could have been acquired by a Wipukepa or Dil Zhee tribeman in  trades with other Indians to the south or east which had direct contact with the Spanish. He may have buried them and marked the cache in the described fashion for reasons that had nothing to do with Spanish tradition. Whoever put it there definitely had an encounter with someone else armed with an escopeta or musket. This event was late enough in the history of the Alta Pimeria for some locals to have acquired firearms, so any violence may have been Indian on Indian. That is one alternate explanation to the Contrabandista theory. The silver coin and gilt button can certainly be explained by the Indians’ fascination with anything shiny that they could fit onto their clothing or ceremonial regalia.
     But we also know from the written record as well as artifacts dug at the Old Pueblo that during the late 1700s the Spanish garrison from the Tucson Presidio made two expeditions north to the Zuni Pueblos. More than a few of those soldados carried trade goods with them as the column approximated Coronado’s old route along the eastern fringe of today’s Arizona. Surely a few of these men would have realized an opportunity to the west, which was, even at this late date, still Tierra Incognita on Spanish maps. Also, it is an interesting coincidence that whoever chose to mark that cache with a river cobble spent so much time and effort hauling a heavy stone in the shape of “The Black Heart Of Cortez” to that site.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Codifica said:

     Bedrock, you are correct in that the items in the cache may not have been put there by a Spaniard. Such goods could have been acquired by a Wipukepa or Dil Zhee tribeman in  trades with other Indians to the south or east which had direct contact with the Spanish. He may have buried them and marked the cache in the described fashion for reasons that had nothing to do with Spanish tradition. Whoever put it there definitely had an encounter with someone else armed with an escopeta or musket. This event was late enough in the history of the Alta Pimeria for some locals to have acquired firearms, so any violence may have been Indian on Indian. That is one alternate explanation to the Contrabandista theory. The silver coin and gilt button can certainly be explained by the Indians’ fascination with anything shiny that they could fit onto their clothing or ceremonial regalia.
     But we also know from the written record as well as artifacts dug at the Old Pueblo that during the late 1700s the Spanish garrison from the Tucson Presidio made two expeditions north to the Zuni Pueblos. More than a few of those soldados carried trade goods with them as the column approximated Coronado’s old route along the eastern fringe of today’s Arizona. Surely a few of these men would have realized an opportunity to the west, which was, even at this late date, still Tierra Incognita on Spanish maps. Also, it is an interesting coincidence that whoever chose to mark that cache with a river cobble spent so much time and effort hauling a heavy stone in the shape of “The Black Heart Of Cortez” to that site.

It is a fabricated story spun around a plain old rock. Anyone with a lick of sense can see that.

:laught16:

Edited by Bedrock Bob
(BMc)2

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It is one thing to see familiar shapes in the patterns of rocks and clouds. It is an entirely different thing when you start imagining those shapes are conveying some sort of hidden message to the observer. And yet another to concoct a story about an event that happened hundreds of years ago based on the hidden message these ordinary rocks are conveying.

IMHO that is just bizarre logic. The type of logic that indicates a chemical imbalance of some sort.

What happened to real research and real treasure hunters? You know, guys that chase real facts and make real deductions and find real stuff?

It seems that anyone who had any experience at all would find it a waste of time to consider any of the "markers" shown here to be anything except rocks. Or the stories to be anything more than imagination.

Fairy tales are fine for some guys I suppose but that is not what real treasure hunting is about.

I will leave this little fantasy land where poodles guard mines and someone drags heart shaped rocks across the desert. I just don't belong in this "crowd" of real life treasure hunters following hot leads like these. It is obvious that my input is just making them multiply like rabbits and drag out even more pictures of plain rocks with hidden meanings and preposterous stories based on them. 

It's been fun though!

:)

 

 

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13 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

It is one thing to see familiar shapes in the patterns of rocks and clouds. It is an entirely different thing when you start imagining those shapes are conveying some sort of hidden message to the observer. And yet another to concoct a story about an event that happened hundreds of years ago based on the hidden message these ordinary rocks are conveying.

IMHO that is just bizarre logic. The type of logic that indicates a chemical imbalance of some sort.

What happened to real research and real treasure hunters? You know, guys that chase real facts and make real deductions and find real stuff?

It seems that anyone who had any experience at all would find it a waste of time to consider any of the "markers" shown here to be anything except rocks. Or the stories to be anything more than imagination.

Fairy tales are fine for some guys I suppose but that is not what real treasure hunting is about.

I will leave this little fantasy land where poodles guard mines and someone drags heart shaped rocks across the desert. I just don't belong in this "crowd" of real life treasure hunters following hot leads like these. It is obvious that my input is just making them multiply like rabbits and drag out even more pictures of plain rocks with hidden meanings and preposterous stories based on them. 

It's been fun though!

:)

 

 

Bob,
Like you, I consider monolithic stone poodles to be pareidolic, but I try to keep my options open. The only reason for posting my information was to alert readers to the possibility of other monument types in the area. Make of my story what you will, but I hope your rock-solid certainty that such caches don’t exist does not blind you to the presence of a once-in-a-lifetime discovery.

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To paraphrase; There are more things in heaven and earth, Bob,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

Beads _1a.jpg

Bell_1a.jpg

Button_1a.jpg

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Its the best part of drywash season and we are arguing over poodles in the desert! Now go out and get some gold!!! Thats if the poodles let ya.......lol!2 (2).jpg

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Codifica said:

Bell_1a.jpg

Undecorated crotal bell with square cast hole sprue top - late 18th to middle 19th century or later.

The subject of the thread is:"SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?"

Despite all the verbal dancing and unverified or outright false Spanish records there is still no evidence presented of any Spanish mines, monuments or even a presence in the Bradshaws - unless you believe in the King's poodle rock/carving/construction magic religious object. It's cool if that's what you believe but it's more accurate if you don't imply that your belief is supported by history or science.

Edited by clay
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1 hour ago, Desertpilot said:

Its the best part of drywash season and we are arguing over poodles in the desert! Now go out and get some gold!!! Thats if the poodles let ya.......lol!2 (2).jpg

A good poodle would lead you to gold seems to be the premise of the original post. That's not my experience with poodles. In fact animals in general are much worse at finding gold than any prospector I've ever met except maybe the Apache in my avatar.

Thanks for sharing some gold Pilot. You provided a much needed break from all the granite and basalt "monuments".

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I just want to thank everyone who has responded to my posts. You have helped me to see the error of my ways. I have only been doing this sort of thing, off and on, for about six and one-half decades now (I started when I was ten.) so I suspect that I’m a relative green-horn compared to all of you wizened and venerable sages out there. Bless your hearts.  I’d say Adios but I wouldn’t want to contaminate your deeply held beliefs with any magical thinking, so I’ll just say good luck and I hope you find whatever it is that you’re looking for.


I’ll leave you all with one last image. If you put on your bifocals and look close you can just make out a strangely shaped gray rock on the left end of that beige boulder.Interesting Rock_1.jpg

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