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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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2 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I'm just not interested in rocks that probably weren't carved by the Spanish Mac. Even if they were carved and you could prove they were carved by the Spanish it still would not give me a tickle. I just cant see how it would mater to me or my gold getting.

Until someone can show me a shred of evidence that they were worked by hand, and/or that the Spanish made even one other monument like that anywhere on earth then I am calling it a fantasy.

Even if it were proven to be a Spanish marker I would still be asking, "Why am I looking at rocks shaped like poodles in the Bradshaws? Why am I wanting so bad for these to be Spanish monuments?  Why am I focused on the faces in the rocks when I could be snapping up nuggets?"

WTF man? Do we need a Spanish marker to tell us where to look for the gold or are the markers the more recent miners left us enough? I just don't get the point. Even if they were "markers" they are simply pointing to a place we already know is rich and has a high likelihood of gold. We really don't need the poodles to tell us that. 

The poodles need to point to open ground in the Bradshaws. Now THAT might help a guy get some gold. 

 

I don't get the point either Bob and why you keep trying to make it a point, . . . is, well, pointless!

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9 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Maybe a stone Chihuahua then?

Is there another example of an outcrop carved into a poodle by the Spanish anywhere else in the Western hemisphere?  Is there another example of them carving an outcrop into any shape? 

Since the Spanish just about conquered the globe at one point it seems we would see markers like these somewhere else. Especially since the King demanded it and all. :rolleyes:

Just one other example...anywhere on earth? :idunno:

How about one other example of a sculpted poodle in Spanish art. Spain has a rich art history and they captured their culture in every detail. Spain is all about art and architecture. Stone work, tile and ornate masonry work. If they so loved the poodle that they carved an outcrop in the hinterlands to mark a mine that no one bothered to record you would think there would be some other rendition of a poodle in Spanish architecture somewhere would you not? :idunno:

Just one example...anywhere?

If they really did carve poodles and the king really did demand they mark trails to mines in this fashion why do we not see these types of markers anywhere else? And why do these "monuments" show no obvious sign of work by human hands? Why don't they look like poodles and Indians any more than a natural outcrop would? Is there any evidence that you can show that would indicate these outcrops have been worked at all other than your opinion they were?  How about Kenworthy?

Just one scrap of evidence that these outcrops have been worked. Claiming to know these have been worked much less who made them, what they are, what they mean and why they were there is a huge jump of logic for anyone. It is just fine to "believe" yourself, but if you want others to "believe" then you are going to have to give us more than your testimony. The photos that we have seen and the explanations just don't add up.

 

-----

Some come back from the Bradshaws with gold. Others come back with some rusty crap and photos of rocks that look like poodles. If these are Spanish poodles built to mark a mine or a rich deposit then should we not be finding the mine or rich deposit rather than hyper focusing on the poodles? Honestly!

Bob,

I found this carved stone poodle statue here where I live, it's right on the beach, so I know the Spanish landed here 500 years ago and searched all the area's beaches for gold deposits, I also know they found all of the gold deposits and mined them because they didn't leave a single gold deposit on any of the beaches, I have looked very hard and they are all gone!!

 

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4 hours ago, Au Seeker said:

Bob,

I found this carved stone poodle statue here where I live, it's right on the beach, so I know the Spanish landed here 500 years ago and searched all the area's beaches for gold deposits, I also know they found all of the gold deposits and mined them because they didn't leave a single gold deposit on any of the beaches, I have looked very hard and they are all gone!!

 

Maybe Kenworthy got the meaning of the monument wrong? Maybe the royal poodle in the "standing tail position" means the Spanish already got all the gold.  They put him pointing to a spot that has been cleaned out.

That would explain these guys coming back from the Bradshaws with photos of poodle rocks and no gold. That is probably the only spot in the Bradshaws that you can't find a piece of gold. Poodles everywhere though.

You found a poodle on the beach. Same thing, no gold anywhere. You made sure of that. 

I only work in areas where there are no carved Spanish poodles. At least no carved Spanish poodles depicted in the standing tail position. And I seem to do fairly well for an old guy with an ice pick stuck in his lower back. I can find pretty good chunks where there are no carved Spanish poodles at all.

There is a pattern developing here. This is no consequence! 

Where there are carved Spanish poodles (or rocks that you think may be carved Spanish poodles) there is no gold. Where there are no Spanish poodles the gold is a whole lot better.

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9 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

I'm just not interested in rocks that probably weren't carved by the Spanish Mac. Even if they were carved and you could prove they were carved by the Spanish it still would not give me a tickle. I just cant see how it would mater to me or my gold getting.

Until someone can show me a shred of evidence that they were worked by hand, and/or that the Spanish made even one other monument like that anywhere on earth then I am calling it a fantasy.

Even if it were proven to be a Spanish marker I would still be asking, "Why am I looking at rocks shaped like poodles in the Bradshaws? Why am I wanting so bad for these to be Spanish monuments?  Why am I focused on the faces in the rocks when I could be snapping up nuggets?"

WTF man? Do we need a Spanish marker to tell us where to look for the gold or are the markers the more recent miners left us enough? I just don't get the point. Even if they were "markers" they are simply pointing to a place we already know is rich and has a high likelihood of gold. We really don't need the poodles to tell us that. 

The poodles need to point to open ground in the Bradshaws. Now THAT might help a guy get some gold. 

 

If Spanish explorers carved poodles in So. Carolina 500 years ago, it's logical that they should have been able to carve a poodle or two in the Bradshaw Mts of Arizona? No? Maybe an Indio while they were at it. A few of those around no doubt.  It's been established and verified that the Spaniards were tromping around the neighborhood, and they even left some gold in the mountains to prove that they were there.They were also in the Grand Canyon in the 1700's  (paso por aqui ano 1776 Dominguez-Escalante group) So, por que no?

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46 minutes ago, BMc said:

If Spanish explorers carved poodles in So. Carolina 500 years ago, it's logical that they should have been able to carve a poodle or two in the Bradshaw Mts of Arizona? No? Maybe an Indio while they were at it. A few of those around no doubt.  It's been established and verified that the Spaniards were tromping around the neighborhood, and they were in the Grand Canyon in the 1700's  (paso por aqui ano 1776 Dominguez-Escalante group) So, por que no?

Let me make my point sparking clear Mac. The Spanish could have easily been in the Bradshaws. I certainly am not saying they could not have been. They might have discovered huge nuggets and pleasured themselves in a circle on the highest peak. 

But they didn't carve a single outcrop into a poodle. Nor anything else. There is no evidence they did and none has been presented. Just pictures of outcrops and circles of words.

How about snapping a few photos when you are out there in November? You wouldn't expect anyone to believe you found a nugget or a meteorite unless you could produce a convincing photo. You can't expect anyone to believe you have found an outcropping carved into a monument by Spanish masons in the Bradshaws without a photo showing something that looks like it could have been done by a mason.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Maybe Kenworthy got the meaning of the monument wrong? Maybe the royal poodle in the "standing tail position" means the Spanish already got all the gold.  They put him pointing to a spot that has been cleaned out.

That would explain these guys coming back from the Bradshaws with photos of poodle rocks and no gold. That is probably the only spot in the Bradshaws that you can't find a piece of gold. Poodles everywhere though.

You found a poodle on the beach. Same thing, no gold anywhere. You made sure of that. 

There is a pattern developing here. This is no consequence! 

I only work in areas where there are no carved Spanish poodles. At least no carved Spanish poodles depicted in the standing tail position. And I seem to do fairly well for an old guy with an ice pick stuck in his lower back. I can find pretty good chunks where there are no carved stone poodles at all.

So there is the proof!

Where there are Spanish poodles (or rocks that you think may be Spanish poodles) there is no gold. Where there are no Spanish poodles the gold is a lot better!

Boy, Bob. You obviously haven't been to Black Canyon or the Bradshaws either. But that's OK. And, I hope that you get that ice pick out of your back soon so a consequence can be a coincidence again. The pain must be terrific. The pain killer must be even more terrific. Just another Tequila Sunset . . . :oregonian_winesmiley:

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17 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Lets get it sparking clear Mac. The Spanish could have easily been in the Bradshaws. I certainly am not saying they could not have been. They might have discovered huge nuggets and pleasured themselves in a circle on the highest peak. 

But they didn't carve a single outcrop into a poodle. Nor anything else. There is no evidence they did and none has been presented. Just pictures of outcrops and circles of words.

How about snapping a few photos when you are out there in November? You wouldn't expect anyone to believe you found a nugget or a meteorite unless you could produce a convincing photo. You can't expect anyone to believe you have found an outcropping carved into a monument by Spanish masons in the Bradshaws without a photo showing something of interest.

 

 

I guess I'm just not seeing your point in all this Bob. Why would I want to convince anyone of anything, or prove anything to anyone, anyway? The only person I ever wanted to prove anything to was myself. And I did that years ago, having nothing to do with this topic. But since you seem to be fixated on this stuff, I'm sure we will hear more from you on the subject,  although I'm a little concerned. Isn't this taking up your valuable gold getting time that you keep hyping up? You're kicking a dead caballo Ese.

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9 hours ago, BMc said:

I guess I'm just not seeing your point in all this Bob. Why would I want to convince anyone of anything, or prove anything to anyone, anyway? The only person I ever wanted to prove anything to was myself. And I did that years ago, having nothing to do with this topic. But since you seem to be fixated on this stuff, I'm sure we will hear more from you on the subject,  although I'm a little concerned. Isn't this taking up your valuable gold getting time that you keep hyping up? You're kicking a dead caballo Ese.

This entire thread is about you trying to convince someone that you have found rock outcroppings carved into markers by the Spanish in the Bradshaws. You have been beating this dead horse for almost a year now. 

You make preposterous claims but you can't back any of it up with a shred of evidence. You will perform quite a Fandango to save face though. You show us pictures of outcrops that show nothing out of the ordinary and insist they were "carved by skilled Spanish masons".  You reference a guy that has made his living writing treasure fantasy as the only evidence your claims are true. You simply can't offer anything to back up your claims in the way of tangible evidence. Not even a photo of work on the "monuments" you claim to have found.

When pressed with logical questions you can't offer anything in response. You fail to address the glaring flaws in your hypothesis to keep from having to admit it was a fabrication. You pretend not to understand the point. You claim someone is being mean to you. You insult and attack others. You try to be cute. You tell more little fibs to try and deflect from your original tale. But you simply can't shine any light on your "theory" in any way.

I'm not fixated on anything but the contortions you will go through to keep from having to admit you are defending a fabrication. I get a kick out of giving guys grief when they start blowing a bunch of hot air and expecting others to believe it. When someone calls them on it they can't admit they where shoveling BS so they try to defend the pile. And you are up there on that pile with your shovel doing the fandango when anyone expresses doubt.

Spanish masons carving outcroppings into the shape of poodles to mark a mine? I have f@<k3d with some guys over some ridiculous ideas before but I gotta say you are the all time champion Mac.

 

 :25r30wi:

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22 hours ago, BMc said:

TRAIL MARKER TO TREASURE? - The attached photograph of what has been purported to be a hand carved Camel monument, "Trail Marker to Treasure",  is located along a major trade route in Northern New Mexico,  and is said to have been used by a tribe of ancient pueblo native people to lure Spanish travelers to a nearby Oasis. Once there, the unsuspecting travelers would be plied with plentiful food and strong drink, then tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way. The scheme worked well for many years until so many other local tribes started doing the same thing, which resulted in the original Oasis being abandoned for lack of use. However, the Camel monument continues to be recognized as one of New Mexico's historic cultural landmarks.

CAMEL ROCK.PNG

That "hand carved" camel monument is still being used to lure unsuspecting travelers…to the casino near-by. This thread is breaking new ground on speculation and misinformation, but it's kinda fun.

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, FlakMagnet said:

That "hand carved" camel monument is still being used to lure unsuspecting travelers…to the casino near-by. This thread is breaking new ground on speculation and misinformation, but it's kinda fun.

It is fun! And that is what this great forum is all about anyway isn't it? :ya:

Edited by Bedrock Bob
"Cuz it surely isn't about facts and reality.
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The Fandango is an entertaining dance to observe. It is no wonder I never tire of watching it.

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35 minutes ago, FlakMagnet said:

That "hand carved" camel monument is still being used to lure unsuspecting travelers…to the casino near-by. This thread is breaking new ground on speculation and misinformation, but it's kinda fun.

Hey Flak, I thought I would see if I could talk Bob off the ledge with some tongue in cheek humor. I was hoping maybe a little allegorical satire using the "camel monument" as bait would get him close enough to the window to throw a rope around him. Guess not. :)

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12 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

The Fandango is an entertaining dance to observe. 

Worked in Mexico city for a few days and hung around the Flamenco parlors in the evening. The duos, duets and dance offs were most impressive.

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25 minutes ago, BMc said:

Hey Flak, I thought I would see if I could talk Bob off the ledge with some tongue in cheek humor. I was hoping maybe a little allegorical satire using the "camel monument" as bait would get him close enough to the window to throw a rope around him. Guess not. :)

Hi BMc, I would only say that the ledge Bob inhabits is not your stock ledge. It's much wider and longer than most. Not sure either whether there's enough rope to snag him, but it's always fun to try...good luck.

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I took this picture awhile back. The mountain troll is certainly natural but he is overlooking some vast wealth. 

28617158_1644422112274137_8799598183592341188_o.jpg

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Wow!!! A jewish mountain troll. I've never seen one like that before.

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On ‎6‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 1:40 PM, Haderly said:

I took this picture awhile back. The mountain troll is certainly natural but he is overlooking some vast wealth. 

28617158_1644422112274137_8799598183592341188_o.jpg

This is obviously the work of skilled Spanish masons. These monuments reportedly served as directional reference points and guide posts during the ingress and egress of miners and travelers who were involved in the mining and administration of concealed Spanish gold mines. Who reported it is anyone's guess but I read it in a paperback and I believe it.

You will notice the small stone under the troll's nose has been laid in Spanish mortar (I saw it myself and I really, really believe it is Spanish mortar). The King of Spain decreed that all Jewish Mountain Troll monuments be depicted in the "dirty nose" fashion. This told the Spanish traveler "Here you will find great wealth". Because that's what a troll with a bugger in his nose means in Spanish rock carving language. 

This is why all expeditions during the Conquest included skilled Spanish masons and slaves carrying mortar. In case the expedition found a rich deposit they would immediately set to work carving a mountain into the shape of a poodle. Or the stylized likeness of an "Indian" that Hollywood would create nearly three hundred years later. Or they would carve mountain trolls with buggers in their nose.

Because this was Spanish law.

 

:laught16:

 

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On 6/21/2019 at 1:40 PM, Haderly said:

I took this picture awhile back. The mountain troll is certainly natural but he is overlooking some vast wealth. 

28617158_1644422112274137_8799598183592341188_o.jpg

Kinda looks like a Gargoyle's head ( chimera/grotesque) intended to frighten away evil spirits and to guard and protect . . .

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4 hours ago, BMc said:

Kinda looks like a Gargoyle's head ( chimera/grotesque) intended to frighten away evil spirits and to guard and protect . . .

Actually the only thing that's scary about the gargoyle is the booger dripping out of his nose.:inocent:

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If you think about it the Spanish's only competitors for gold in situ was evil spirits. They handled that one with one of about five variants of crosses. Pagan symbols were frowned on in those days. Inquisition and all.

No one else had the technology to mine and smelt gold. So hiding or concealing a mine was something the Spanish officers of the Conquest probably didn't do much of. Quite the opposite. They marked the trail and surveyed a line to backtrack on. The natives were who concealed the mines during the Pueblo Revolt and tried to erase any evidence. Not the Spanish. 

After the Conquest there was mining. But not by Spanish officers. By individuals under Spanish rule. They did things about like any other prospector would and they marked their route just like any other traveler would. The Conquest was over and it was all about conversion and colonization. The "Spanish" were not officers, they were land owners. They did not have "skilled Spanish masons" in their employ. 

They followed religious tenets much more closely during the colonization period. During these days the Spanish did not take slaves. There were indentured Genizaro and free men who did all of the mining. Not enslaved natives. You must remember that many if not most "Spanish" settlers were Jews that came to the colonies to escape slavery and persecution. The Apache, Navajo, Comanche and Kiowa were the slave traders. The population in the colonies were overwhelmingly Genizaro, not Spanish. These were converted people of native ancestry who had accepted religion, cut their hair and learned the language. Proto-Hispanics. For the most part they had no Spanish blood at all.

Spanish mines were marked with crosses. But after Juan Diego's vision in the mid 1500's the Virgen De Guadalupe became the marking over every place where brown men worked. There simply was no mine in the southwest worked by the "Spanish" that was not marked by the Virgen. And soon afterward the majority of the mines were being prospected and located by men who had very little "Spanish" blood at all and detested the "Spanish" and their rule. Then came the Mexican identity and the "Spanish" became not much more than an elite class of citizens that has lost much of it's influence and political power.

"Spanish" markings consist of crosses, depictions of the Virgen De Guadalupe, Arabic numerals, letters of the alphabet and mis-spelled Spanish words. There were a handful of recognized "symbols" that meant things like water, day counts, directions, etc. There were cairns, sight rocks, and blazes on trees. And of course there was good old navigation and triangulation using a compass, sextant and mapping tools. The major directional info was maps and verbal descriptions written down on paper. These methods were all in use from the time the Spanish set foot in the new world.

It would be cool to have a thread with some photos of actual Spanish mine markings and symbols rather than imaginary ones. It might be good discussion for guys who are interested in finding real Spanish sites and learning a bit about how they did mark and navigate. Maybe a factual discussion on the subject would be as much fun as an imagined one? 

 

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Let me break out my Brownie Hawkeye camera and see what I can come up with - although I'm not sure I'd recognize a Spanish marker if I fell over it. Can't help but wonder that markers, if there are any around, would probably have been carried off by some thief of time rather than honor where it lies. Facts can be so harsh sometimes whereas those imagined ones, well they can lead you anywhere...

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Posted (edited)

I will start with this one. It is the ruins of the Spanish church at Gran Quivira. It is also the site of one of the most famous (real) treasure hunts in New Mexico history.

gq6.jpg

Governor Otero of New Mexico territory dug a huge hole in the floor looking for "Spanish" wealth. It is still there, covered with a grate. (The hole not the wealth).

The church was never really finished. The people here died from disease as a result of Spanish contact. The pueblo was much weakened and fell victim to raids from the Navajo and Apache. Many converted and became part of the Spanish colonies or were taken as slaves by other tribes. The site has been abandoned since about 1600. Otero looted it in the late 1800's.

Here is one of about seven kivas found at Gran Quivira. The natives worshipped in their kiva as well as in the church. Since the Saline Pueblos were not on the Rio Grande around Santa Fe they were never really wholly converted and never became a "Spanish" village. Like the other Saline cities of Abo and Tajique they simply died off as European culture grew in the valley just over the mountains.

gq3.jpg

You can see the stone work was not done with limed mortar. Even in the Church. This was the work of native craftsmen using natural materials. Construction of the church was under the direction of a Friar and not an engineer nor with the help of skilled Spanish masons. The indiginos (They were not called "indios". The Spanish were not looking for India.) built the church in exactly the same fashion as the rest of the city which had existed for centuries before the Spanish arrived. No doubt the church would have risen higher and been of Spanish design but it was never completed. 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
No poodles

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Posted (edited)

Here is a treasure marker. It is over a cave that has a church bell hidden inside. That cave has been excavated in hopes that it was the legendary "El Chato" treasure. I have no idea if the man who excavated the cave found anything other than that bell. But a few years after the cave was dug up he left the area (reportedly) a wealthy man.

Who knows? It is what "they" say and I don't know if "they" know what they are talking about. I do know the man found (and left) a big brass church bell down in that hole. 

There is a story about why they hid the bell in there but that is just wild conjecture so I won't bore you with it. I was told that it was mentioned in church records since the early 1700's. "They" told me that too. It is just a bunch of poodle talk as far as I am concerned.

Anyhoo, this is the brown virgin. The cinnamon skinned mother of Jesus himself. La Virgen De Guadalupe.

guad.JPG

This symbol is above every digging in the southwest that was worked with brown hands. And that is just about every digging in the southwest period. It is still being drawn, painted, chiseld on rocks and tattooed across the backs of an entire Hispanic culture with very little Spanish blood and a whole lotta native blood.

Wherever you see this sign you can find stuff. There is always an offering left there or it is left in a spot of importance.

In New Mexico she is everywhere. There is a custom to leave a "milagro" to take away your bad luck or an offering to show respect to the Virgen. People often pour oil at her feet or leave a candle. Some groups like mothers, orphans, truck drivers and laborers have a special connection with her. She is one helluva important cultural symbol. And people often leave goodies at her feet.

The period when "Spanish" marked mines was very short. The period where the people of the southwest (under Spanish governace) marked rich areas was long. In both periods a religious symbol was used. Any mine before about 1600 or so would be marked with a cross. Probably a "Celtic" style cross with a circle at the intersection, or the "Maltese" cross with the bars on the end. But every area after about 1600 until the white man arrived about 1860 was marked with the lady you see above.  

She is as much (or more) a cultural symbol than a religious one. And if you are interested in treasure markers or symbols she is the number one lady you need to know about. 

 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
A la madre! Sin poodles tambien!
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Posted (edited)

Here is the Spanish mission at Abo. Another pagan kiva with a Spanish mission in the background. 

Abo.JPG

Abo is a really beautiful spot at a spring in the foothills of the Manzano Mountains. It is made from beautifully cut red sandstone from the canyon near the spring. The city was big and had lots of people. It was the biggest city of the Saline culture.

It is just around the corner from Gran Quivira. It is a perfect example of Spanish influence during the colonization period. Just a few short miles from New Mexico's biggest placer deposit. 

These people were the first miners in the area. They mined salt from Laguna Del Perro, a big series of salt beds to the north and east. They had the most precious commodity in the area until the Spanish came along looking for gold.

The Spanish found New Mexico's biggest placer fields just north of this place. The Ortiz and San Pedro gold deposits. They didn't do much with them though. During the colonization period a gold deposit was just not big news. The placers and hard rock deposits known to the Spanish went mostly undeveloped. There was no interest in these areas until long after the trade route through Santa Fe was firmly established. By that time Spanish influence had declined and the gold was of interest to the travelers and traders coming to Santa Fe. Of course the Spanish still controlled Santa Fe but by that time it was actually a part of Mexico, not Spain.

What the Spanish did do during this period was convert and colonize. They used smallpox as a chemical weapon to weaken entire cultures and then convert the disease resistant survivors to populate the land grants. These were the Genizaros that made an entirely new culture on planet earth. A uniquely American group of people that did not exist until the Spanish religion and culture collided with indigenous blood. 

That is what happened in places like Abo. Smallpox ravaged the community and made survival in places like these very difficult. The Spanish offered a good deal for conversion and a place in society in the Genizaro villages. The church was the recruitment office. The biggest building in the pueblo. Then, in a weakened state the pueblos were often preyed upon by the Apache, Navajo and Comanche. So the once important Saline peoples became converts, slaves or succumbed to smallpox.

Now what is left is the most beautiful red sandstone ruins in a canyon lined with cottonwoods. A little spring and creek flows through it. You could tell that many hundreds of people lived here for centuries.

abo (2).JPG

Here is your "Spanish mortar". Construction using clay mud in the joints. I am not sure how many of these walls have been stabilized but I was told by the folks at the park office that there have been several projects focused on pointing up the mud joints to stabilize the walls. This is not limed mortar but more like adobe mud. It is an excellent example of "mortared stone" construction in the Spanish colonial period. 

It is just outside Mountainair not too far. About 70 miles or so SE of Albuquerque near Estancia. If you are ever in that area it is a super nice place to see. Whenever I am in the area I stop and walk around. There is a really easy vibe about the place and it is really spectacular to look at. A real ancient city.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
There were no poodles injured in the building of this pueblo.
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