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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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Each on its own merits (or lack thereof) but I would certainly agree with you on those two examples . . .

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On 6/12/2019 at 12:32 PM, BMc said:

Hey Unc, Was the cave in West Texas or Arizona?

It was in West Texas ... Probably in the mountains west of Uvalde... Cheers, Unc

 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/12/2019 at 9:21 AM, BMc said:

SPANISH EXPLORERS IN THE BRADSHAWS? (part 1)
The location of the disputed "Mine Trail Monuments" is in the Black Canyon area of the Bradshaw Mts (N/W of Black Canyon City) The Bradshaw Mts area is/was considered a "world class" gold area, roughly 40 miles long by 25 miles wide (highly mineralized) with numerous mines, prospects, gossan outcrops and placer gold deposits) In many places, it is steep, rough, rugged country.  In a previous forum discussion, the following was authoritatively asserted: (supposedly, to show proof that the Spanish never ventured as far as the Bradshaw Mts of Arizona) QUOTE: "The closest the Spanish ever came to the Bradshaws was the area around the upper Agua Fria when they were looking for the route to the Bill Williams and the Colorado River. Mining by missionaries or by Indians directed by Spanish did not occur in Arizona north of the Gila River. The Spanish did mine the copper deposit at Santa Rita. The records of the workings and product of that mine were well recorded but of course Santa Rita is above the Mimbres valley in New Mexico hundreds of miles from the Bradshaws. We are still mining copper at Santa Rita (Chino mine)" END QUOTE.

Known Historical Facts: 1) Spanish explorers/prospectors crossed the Verde River, (which is North/East  of Prescott), and traveled through the area in the "general vicinity North of Prescott" more than once. (Prescott is considered to be the Northern most edge of the Bradshaw Mts. (see map)
2) A fork of the Verde River N. of the Bradshaws runs into Sycamore creek/canyon where the Spanish discovered gold, and also discovered copper and silver deposits at Jerome (about 34 miles from Prescott) Limited mining resulted and mineral resources were never fully developed by the Spanish, (for various reasons),  many due to political and religious infighting, fractional governmental power struggles, personal and prosecutorial enmities, and geographical disadvantages (to mention a few)

TO BE CONTINUED:

 

Interesting that you would quote me but not give credit. I will stand by what I wrote and grant you an education opportunity as a reply.

These are not "Known Historical Facts". If you had actually continued your research you would know that Onate (the last conquistador) was prosecuted and convicted of lying in these records and for personally lying to the King about these discoveries. It is a famous and very well documented trial. He was convicted of 13 charges including murdering his second in command and two of his officers along with a few hundred Acoma natives. He was a very stabby guy and couldn't stand even a little criticism even when it came from his best friend and confidant - who he stabbed to death publicly. It was shown that Espejo had concocted his story also but his legacy was mostly excused because Onate based his defense on Espejo having lied. That really didn't matter to the court because Espejo didn't lie to the KING as Onate had and that was the worst crime under Spanish law - a much worse crime than getting all murder stab stab with his officers and friends.

Onate was so disliked and distrusted by his expedition colonists that on one of the few occasions he left Santa Fe when he came back after two weeks 3/4 of his colonists and employees had grabbed their stuff and headed back home to northern Mexico. His expedition and his fortunes collapsed shortly thereafter at which point the KING signed a warrant for his arrest and trial.

Onate lied to the KING about having a producing silver mine on the Hopi Mesas (there is NO mineralization in that formation). Onate lied to the KING about personally traveling west to reach the Southern Sea where he found pearls heaped upon the shore. Onate lied to the KING about the extent of the Kansas expeditions - leading to him ordering the murder of one of his officers who objected.

As far as gold in the Sycamore? Never happened. I owned the gold tooth mine patent at the confluence of the Verde River and Sycamore Creek and lived there for more than a year in the '80s. I know Sycamore Canyon and all it's side canyons intimately from years of exploration. There are NO mineral deposits of any significance. Certainly no gold whatsoever. The flagstone quarry in Sycamore pass between Casner and Black mountain is the only mining that occurred in that area other than at the gold tooth. The gold tooth was not a gold mine. It was named for the little yellow/brown chert inclusions found in the fluorite deposit that was being mined to supply the smelter at Jerome - they resemble yellowed teeth if you use your imagination.

The deposit at Jerome is a deeply folded volcanogenic massive sulfide deposit. The Spanish are very familiar with those deposits as they mine several world class deposits of that type in Spain. The central ore body at Jerome begins at the 1,600 foot level. There was a lot of gold found  at and below that level. There is no free milling gold or silver near the surface. Some very oxidized copper minerals were exposed in a small patch above the many Jerome mines - you can still see that patch today if you can get permission to climb above the pit. That was the only surface exposure. "Ore"? Well sure if you are just dying to find something to report back so you can get more men and supplies. I've read Espejo's reports from this period and knowing the area well I can only conclude his reports were fantasy based on stories gleaned from natives he questioned in his travels. The simple fact he never provided any samples of his "rich ore" is more than suspicious in my mind particularly when combined with the fact that the deposits he "discovered" that Onate claimed to have mined never existed.

Edited by clay
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9 hours ago, clay said:

Interesting that you would quote me but not give credit. I will stand by what I wrote and grant you an education opportunity as a reply.

These are not "Known Historical Facts". If you had actually continued your research you would know that Onate (the last conquistador) was prosecuted and convicted of lying in these records and for personally lying to the King about these discoveries. It is a famous and very well documented trial. He was convicted of 13 charges including murdering his second in command and two of his officers along with a few hundred Acoma natives. He was a very stabby guy and couldn't stand even a little criticism even when it came from his best friend and confidant - who he stabbed to death publicly. It was shown that Espejo had concocted his story also but his legacy was mostly excused because Onate based his defense on Espejo having lied. That really didn't matter to the court because Espejo didn't lie to the KING as Onate had and that was the worst crime under Spanish law - a much worse crime than getting all murder stab stab with his officers and friends.

Onate was so disliked and distrusted by his expedition colonists that on one of the few occasions he left Santa Fe when he came back after two weeks 3/4 of his colonists and employees had grabbed their stuff and headed back home to northern Mexico. His expedition and his fortunes collapsed shortly thereafter at which point the KING signed a warrant for his arrest and trial.

Onate lied to the KING about having a producing silver mine on the Hopi Mesas (there is NO mineralization in that formation). Onate lied to the KING about personally traveling west to reach the Southern Sea where he found pearls heaped upon the shore. Onate lied to the KING about the extent of the Kansas expeditions - leading to him ordering the murder of one of his officers who objected.

As far as gold in the Sycamore? Never happened. I owned the gold tooth mine patent at the confluence of the Verde River and Sycamore Creek and lived there for more than a year in the '80s. I know Sycamore Canyon and all it's side canyons intimately from years of exploration. There are NO mineral deposits of any significance. Certainly no gold whatsoever. The flagstone quarry in Sycamore pass between Casner and Black mountain is the only mining that occurred in that area other than at the gold tooth. The gold tooth was not a gold mine. It was named for the little yellow/brown chert inclusions found in the fluorite deposit that was being mined to supply the smelter at Jerome - they resemble yellowed teeth if you use your imagination.

The deposit at Jerome is a deeply folded volcanogenic massive sulfide deposit. The Spanish are very familiar with those deposits as they mine several world class deposits of that type in Spain. The central ore body at Jerome begins at the 1,600 foot level. There was a lot of gold found  at and below that level. There is no free milling gold or silver near the surface. Some very oxidized copper minerals were exposed in a small patch above the many Jerome mines - you can still see that patch today if you can get permission to climb above the pit. That was the only surface exposure. "Ore"? Well sure if you are just dying to find something to report back so you can get more men and supplies. I've read Espejo's reports from this period and knowing the area well I can only conclude his reports were fantasy based on stories gleaned from natives he questioned in his travels. The simple fact he never provided any samples of his "rich ore" is more than suspicious in my mind particularly when combined with the fact that the deposits he "discovered" that Onate claimed to have mined never existed.

You don't get invited to many parties do you Clay?

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Clay, you seriously crack me up man! I didn't use your name because I didn't want you to think I was trying to pick a fight with you. I just wanted to address the issue of the Spanish presence near the Bradshaws who were engaging in prospecting and mining activities North of the Gila. That's a well established fact in the historical record which you denied previously but now you reluctantly admit by saying, "Ore"? Well, sure if you are just dying to find something to report back so you can get more men and supplies" Getting you to admit an objective fact is like pulling teeth with you Clay!  I would have been happy to give you credit, but actually I was trying to spare you the embarrassment of being wrong! (As you were in your previous attack on me) So, you argue that everyone was lying? I get it. Nobody went there, nobody found anything, it was all lies. LIES, LIES, LIES! The explorers lied, the witnesses who were deposed lied. The assay reports were obviously fabricated and fraudulent. (They are in the records) ALL LIES?  Here's a quote from the Office of the New Mexico State Historian: "One party in Oñate’s group even traveled as far as the San Francisco Mountains in Arizona, where they found silver ore and staked a claim" LIES CLAY?

That is North of the Gila isn't it Clay? Just a wee bit? No silver ever there? Is that what your saying or just not mined down to the 1600' level?  (more irrelevant diversionary clap - trap)
OK, now, let's examine your so called education opportunity, (without the selective cherry picked accusations against OnateFirst let me emphasize that I am not defending Onate's brutality, but that has nothing to do with Spanish expeditions in the vicinity of the Bradshaw Mts!
 Clay, much to my disappointment, I now see that It's obvious you are just trying to create a diversion to obviscate the well documented fact that Onate did make and order expeditions near the Bradshaw Mts. (hoping to cover up the fact that you had not done the proper research before hand), that's OK, except now, having been forced to do the research, you have to carefully cherry pick and present only what falsely serves your one sided argument which not only distorts the facts but attempts to change the subject (like you did last time) Contrary to your assertion, I completed the research months ago. I know what has been reported as being factual (and there are several different interpretations and versions as you no doubt realize)
You said:  "If you had actually continued your research you would know that Onate (the last conquistador) was prosecuted and convicted of lying in these records and for personally lying to the King about these discoveries. It is a famous and very well documented trial. He was convicted of 13 charges including murdering his second in command and two of his officers along with a few hundred Acoma natives. He was a very stabby guy and couldn't stand even a little criticism even when it came from his best friend and confidant - who he stabbed to death publicly. It was shown that Espejo had concocted his story also but his legacy was mostly excused because Onate based his defense on Espejo having lied. That really didn't matter to the court because Espejo didn't lie to the KING as Onate had and that was the worst crime under Spanish law - a much worse crime than getting all murder stab stab with his officers and friends"
My Response:  Really Clay? Please. Spare me the drama and false pretenses. You and I know the truth because we have researched the historical records (of which there are many), but Clay, if it had been a punitive trial and as serious as you would have us believe, surely he would have been punished severely or possibly even been executed, right?  Was he executed Clay? Was he imprisoned? Do you want to be honest and disclose what happened to Onate Clay? Didn't he just resign his post as Governor in New Mexico, go home to Mexico because he could no longer pay his army, or provide for them because he had exhausted his entire fortune supporting them (the Crown didn't pay them) and the Crown didn't support the expedition, including Onate (That's the main reason why the deserters were taking their families and going home) They had no food or means of support except by force of arms against the native tribes which was constantly resulting in violence. They wanted the old system of encomienda - free land and natives as slaves to make them rich. That system was outlawed and didn't Onate enforce that Law? Many of his group hated Onate because of that. As you stated, Onate was "The Last Conquistador" and his father was a rich silver magnate and mine owner. He was weaned on stories of Pizarro, who looted the Inca Empire, and Cortes, who annihilated the Aztec Empire (Onate was married to  Isabel de Tolosa Cortes Montezuma), a descendant of conquistador Hernán Cortes and the Aztec emperor Montezuma), so he had it in his blood to search for riches; gold and silver.
And didn't Onate get rich again working in his father's silver mines in Mexico before he was called back to Spain to face an instigated show trial, and after his trial and conviction (on charges brought by his political enemies, including the "Religious"), didn't he receive a pardon, and was then appointed to a high post as "head of all mining" in Spain?  HE RECEIVED A SLAP ON THE WRIST AND THEN A PROMOTION CLAY!!
He had exhausted his fortune chasing around searching for cities of gold, where none existed like Coronado did before him, so naturally he had gone West where Espejo had reported a silver discovery. And according to supported historical records, it appears that he located and mined the same mineral deposits referred to by his predecessor.  The historical records state and confirm that the Spanish mined surface ore not far from the Bradshaws. Again, the point is, they were there. And some of the explorers could have been in the Bradshaws as well. They were known to be searching for mineral wealth without permission of the King, going where they were forbidden by law to go,and  in some instances under a pretext. History shows that it was probably much more widely done than has ever been reported because records were purposely not kept by some during the clandestine explorations into parts of  the Northern Kingdom. Did they sometimes lie to cover up their activities? Yes! And at times, they couldn't bring back the ore they discovered to show because they weren't supposed to have been there to begin with. But some were bold enough (according to validated records) to report their finds and ask permission to further their explorations. These requests were usually not granted by the King, partially because the King knew he was losing control of these expeditions and suspected that the Royal "5th", 20% tax, wasn't being paid to the Crown. And new discoveries of rich silver in Mexico were getting the attention and support of the Spanish government because they were easier to oversee and control.

Finally Clay, you turned a simple book report assignment into a fiction novel, and in doing so revealed your bias toward the truth,  which is a further disappointment since you once said you were fond of facts, remember? Oh, no doubt you can inundate us with trail testimony, more filler and white noise on the subject, but it doesn't change the basic conclusion that you concealed material facts to slant your argument.

You said: "I'm fond of facts. Facts and truth are inseparable friends. Speculation and imagination are very useful human traits and pursued with integrity they can lead to new facts to support the truth. Speculate as you wish but when speculations are contradicted by the facts that speculation is better characterized as fantasy. Fantasy does have it's place in human experience but I've never found a useful outcome when fantasy is mixed with mining. Perhaps your experience is different than mine?"

Yes, thankfully it is. Unfortunately Clay, it seems that the only facts that you are fond off are your own "facts", that can be manipulated and shaped to suit your argument. it should be obvious that integrity in research and reporting requires a truthful disclosure of the whole story not just those "facts" convenient to your slanted argument. You shouldn't have to cherry pick and distort the "facts", which serves to misrepresent the record. Integrity seems to be lacking in your reporting Clay, so if that's the kind of education opportunity you are offering, I respectfully decline the "opportunity"

 

 

 

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If you listen very carefully you can actually hear the egos rubbing together...    :pop:

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7 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

If you listen very carefully you can actually hear the egos rubbing together...    :pop:

Like you got room to talk Bob? I would say, yours is bigger, but then you would be bragging about it the rest of the century! :rolleyes:

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And as far as I'm concerned, it's not about egos. I don't really think that's the main point with Clay either. He seems to be totally convinced that he is right and I respect that,  but I can't say that for his research/reporting methodology. I feel very strongly that there is much more to this issue than history conveniently explains and reports on. The more I study Spanish History of the South West, the more I am convinced that explorers went far beyond what is considered the acceptable norm, as reported in the history books, (with regards to where they traveled and areas they explored) Scholars and academics won't go out on a limb or take risks and venture an opinion about things generally speaking. It's safer to just get on board with the mainstream thought process, so I believe much of the truth remains in the arena of speculation.  And the issue always goes back to the monuments with me. How did they get there and for what purpose were they created? (If not as a guide to the mines?) The argument with Clay has nothing to do with the extent of mining in Northern Arizona (if any). It's just about the fact that the Spanish explorers were in the area and could have been in the Bradshaws as well.  And if they were, they could have created the monuments. That sentiment is what I am defending.

 

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8 minutes ago, BMc said:

And as far as I'm concerned, it's not about egos. I don't really think that's the main point with Clay either. He seems to be totally convinced that he is right and I respect that,  but I can't say that for his research/reporting methodology. I feel very strongly that there is much more to this issue than history conveniently explains and reports on. The more I study Spanish History of the South West, the more I am convinced that explorers went far beyond what is considered the acceptable norm, as reported in the history books, (with regards to where they traveled and areas they explored) Scholars and academics won't go out on a limb or take risks and venture an opinion about things generally speaking. It's safer to just get on board with the mainstream thought process, so I believe much of the truth remains in the arena of speculation.  And the issue always goes back to the monuments with me. How did they get there and for what purpose were they created? (If not as a guide to the mines?) The argument with Clay has nothing to do with the extent of mining in Northern Arizona (if any). It's just about the fact that the Spanish explorers were in the area and could have been in the Bradshaws as well.  And if they were, they could have created the monuments. That sentiment is what I am defending.

 

What monuments?

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Uh, them dog thangs. You know . . .

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I have a close family member who is totally into researching Spanish s/s ... He goes into the central AZ mountains and tells me what he and his crew are looking for Be damned, if he doesn't eventually bring back believable evidence, pix, etc... He's got the fever and is willing to put in far more effort than I would looking for my nuggets... I used to chuckle at him, but after near 20 years, I'm  a believer too!  He's found some remarkable stuff! ... Cheers, Unc

 

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ladies ladies, please.. food for thought, here comes a pic of a blade i found in the bradshaw’s near some other imaginatory things.

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3032978E-CD0A-4A3F-829E-024F7AEAA8DF.jpeg

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the tip is broken off but i believe it to be the first run bowie knife made from an old basterd file(look how BUCK knifes started). 

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5 hours ago, WhiteFeather82a1 said:

3032978E-CD0A-4A3F-829E-024F7AEAA8DF.jpeg

That is a riffler. Not a knife made from a file. You can clearly see the teeth extend all the way to the edge. If it were a file worked into a blade it would have been worked through the file teeth to a knife edge.

It is a pretty common shaping tool.  Definitely not Spanish. Knives made from files are common too. Still not Spanish.

You can "believe" whatever you want. But "beliefs" are not facts and often don't square with reality.

Maybe they used this riffler to file the toenails of a stone poodle?

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2 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

That is a riffler. Not a knife made from a file. You can clearly see the teeth extend all the way to the edge. If it were a file worked into a blade it would have been worked through the file teeth to a knife edge.

It is a pretty common shaping tool.  Definitely not Spanish. Knives made from files are common too. Still not Spanish.

You can "believe" whatever you want. But "beliefs" are not facts and often don't square with reality.

Maybe they used this riffler to file the toenails of a stone poodle?

Too small . . .

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1 hour ago, BMc said:

Too small . . .

Maybe a stone Chihuahua then?

Is there another example of an outcrop carved into a poodle by the Spanish anywhere else in the Western hemisphere?  Is there another example of them carving an outcrop into any shape? 

Since the Spanish just about conquered the globe at one point it seems we would see markers like these somewhere else. Especially since the King demanded it and all. :rolleyes:

Just one other example...anywhere on earth? :idunno:

How about one other example of a sculpted poodle in Spanish art. Spain has a rich art history and they captured their culture in every detail. Spain is all about art and architecture. Stone work, tile and ornate masonry work. If they so loved the poodle that they carved an outcrop in the hinterlands to mark a mine that no one bothered to record you would think there would be some other rendition of a poodle in Spanish architecture somewhere would you not? :idunno:

Just one example...anywhere?

If they really did carve poodles and the king really did demand they mark trails to mines in this fashion why do we not see these types of markers anywhere else? And why do these "monuments" show no obvious sign of work by human hands? Why don't they look like poodles and Indians any more than a natural outcrop would? Is there any evidence that you can show that would indicate these outcrops have been worked at all other than your opinion they were?  How about Kenworthy?

Just one scrap of evidence that these outcrops have been worked. Claiming to know these have been worked much less who made them, what they are, what they mean and why they were there is a huge jump of logic for anyone. It is just fine to "believe" yourself, but if you want others to "believe" then you are going to have to give us more than your testimony. The photos that we have seen and the explanations just don't add up.

 

-----

Some come back from the Bradshaws with gold. Others come back with some rusty crap and photos of rocks that look like poodles. If these are Spanish poodles built to mark a mine or a rich deposit then should we not be finding the mine or rich deposit rather than hyper focusing on the poodles? Honestly!

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12 hours ago, Bedrock Bob said:

What monuments?

TRAIL MARKER TO TREASURE? - The attached photograph of what has been purported to be a hand carved Camel monument, "Trail Marker to Treasure",  is located along a major trade route in Northern New Mexico,  and is said to have been used by a tribe of ancient pueblo native people to lure Spanish travelers to a nearby Oasis. Once there, the unsuspecting travelers would be plied with plentiful food and strong drink, then tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way. The scheme worked well for many years until so many other local tribes started doing the same thing, which resulted in the original Oasis being abandoned for lack of use. However, the Camel monument continues to be recognized as one of New Mexico's historic cultural landmarks.

CAMEL ROCK.PNG

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Posted (edited)

That is Camel rock man. It is a natural rock formation. Come on buddy. It is at the village of Pojoaque!

You may "purport" it to be hand carved but it is a rock formation just like the hundreds of other hoodoos in the immediate area that look just about like that. It has never been associated with any treasure except in someone's fertile mind. Nor was it a marker to "an oasis". It is on the flanks of the Sangre De Christos above the Rio Grande for heavens sake. In the Genizaro Village of Pojoaque which is just a few miles north of Santa Fe.

…."Lure Spanish travelers to a nearby oasis"! "Tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way"! Who are you trying to kid man? :25r30wi:

Edited by Bedrock Bob
A person would have to be ignorant of New Mexico history to believe that story.
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15 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

Maybe a stone Chihuahua then?

Is there another example of an outcrop carved into a poodle by the Spanish anywhere else in the Western hemisphere?  Is there another example of them carving an outcrop into any shape? 

Since the Spanish just about conquered the globe at one point it seems we would see markers like these somewhere else. Especially since the King demanded it and all. :rolleyes:

Just one other example...anywhere on earth? :idunno:

How about one other example of a sculpted poodle in Spanish art. Spain has a rich art history and they captured their culture in every detail. Spain is all about art and architecture. Stone work, tile and ornate masonry work. If they so loved the poodle that they carved an outcrop in the hinterlands to mark a mine that no one bothered to record you would think there would be some other rendition of a poodle in Spanish architecture somewhere would you not? :idunno:

Just one example...anywhere?

If they really did carve poodles and the king really did demand they mark trails to mines in this fashion why do we not see these types of markers anywhere else? And why do these "monuments" show no obvious sign of work by human hands? WHy don't they look like poodles and Indians any more than a natural outcrop? Is there any evidence that you can show that would indicate these outcrops have been worked at all other than the statement that you believe you saw it? 

Just one scrap of evidence that these outcrops have been worked. Claiming to know these have been worked much less who made them, what they are, what they mean and why they were there is a huge jump of logic for anyone. It is just fine to "believe" yourself, but if you want others to "believe" then you are going to have to give us more than your belief that it is true. The photos that we have seen and the explanations just don't add up.

 

-----

Some come back from the Bradshaws with gold. Others come back with some rusty crap and photos of rocks that look like poodles. If these are Spanish poodles built to mark a mine or a rich deposit then should we not be finding the mine or rich deposit rather than hyper focusing on the poodles? Honestly!

Asked and answered. Old ground that's been covered . . . but seriously, if you want to know for yourself Bob, and since, apparently you haven't studied Kenworthy's material on this subject; take a few days off in November when it cools off, and go with me to take a look. You can tell me I'm full of crap in person if you want, and perhaps recommend a  good ophthalmologist, optometrist, or psychiatrist. Maybe all three! :)

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13 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

That is Camel rock man. It is a natural rock formation. Come on buddy. It is at the village of Pojoaque.

You may "purport" it to be hand carved but it is a rock formation just like the other hundreds of rock formations in the immediate area.

…."Lure Spanish travelers to a nearby oasis"! "Tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way"! Who are you trying to kid man?  :25r30wi:

Everybody Bob, that should have been obvious, no? I shouldn't have to put a smiley face on that one to show that it's supposed to be funny. And don't try and convince us that you didn't recognize the satire . . . You are too sharp an ol' Coyote not to spot a trap like that in plain sight. C'mon, now who's kidding who?

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25 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

That is Camel rock man. It is a natural rock formation. Come on buddy. It is at the village of Pojoaque.

You may "purport" it to be hand carved but it is a rock formation just like the hundreds of other hoodoos in the immediate area that look just about like that. It has never been associated with any treasure except in someone's fertile mind. Nor was it a marker to "an oasis". It is on the flanks of the Sangre De Christos above the Rio Grande for heavens sake. In the Genizaro Village of Pojoaque which is just a few miles north of Santa Fe.

…."Lure Spanish travelers to a nearby oasis"! "Tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way"! Who are you trying to kid man?  :25r30wi:

Since you blew my gag Bob, you might as well tell the rest of the story. The Camel rock casino was located across the street from the "monument" and closed the location because of too much competition from other casinos in the area. They're still in the same business elsewhere though.

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33 minutes ago, Bedrock Bob said:

That is Camel rock man. It is a natural rock formation. Come on buddy. It is at the village of Pojoaque.

You may "purport" it to be hand carved but it is a rock formation just like the hundreds of other hoodoos in the immediate area that look just about like that. It has never been associated with any treasure except in someone's fertile mind. Nor was it a marker to "an oasis". It is on the flanks of the Sangre De Christos above the Rio Grande for heavens sake. In the Genizaro Village of Pojoaque which is just a few miles north of Santa Fe.

…."Lure Spanish travelers to a nearby oasis"! "Tricked into giving up their money and sent on their way"! Who are you trying to kid man?  :25r30wi:

Its hard to keep up with your edits, changes and (feigned outrage and ridicule), but there seems to be a wisp of humor seeping through . . .

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9 hours ago, WhiteFeather82a1 said:

the tip is broken off but i believe it to be the first run bowie knife made from an old basterd file(look how BUCK knifes started). 

That looks like a prototype of a Zippo when they first started . . .

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20 minutes ago, BMc said:

Asked and answered. Old ground that's been covered . . . but seriously, if you want to know for yourself Bob, and since, apparently you haven't studied Kenworthy's material on this subject; take a few days off in November when it cools off, and go with me to take a look. You can tell me I'm full of crap in person if you want, and perhaps recommend a  good ophthalmologist, optometrist, or psychiatrist. Maybe all three! :)

I'm just not interested in rocks that probably weren't carved by the Spanish Mac. Even if they were carved and you could prove they were carved by the Spanish it still would not give me a tickle. I just cant see how it would mater to me or my gold getting.

Until someone can show me a shred of evidence that they were worked by hand, and/or that the Spanish made even one other monument like that anywhere on earth then I am calling it a fantasy.

Even if it were proven to be a Spanish marker I would still be asking, "Why am I looking at rocks shaped like poodles in the Bradshaws? Why am I wanting so bad for these to be Spanish monuments?  Why am I focused on the faces in the rocks when I could be snapping up nuggets?"

WTF man? Do we need a Spanish marker to tell us where to look for the gold or are the markers the more recent miners left us enough? I just don't get the point. Even if they were "markers" they are simply pointing to a place we already know is rich and has a high likelihood of gold. We really don't need the poodles to tell us that. 

The poodles need to point to open ground in the Bradshaws. Now THAT might help a guy get some gold. 

 

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