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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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i hope i posted in the correct area/page just looking for input and answers, i am a modern weapon speacialist, patriot, and sawyer with “in field” experience for over ten years in the bradshaw mountains of arizona not limited to tracking, POI, geology, chemistry, weather, plants, animal behavior, fire behavior, the ability to see things from long ago when all factors are taken into consideration, land of the apache, the weaver party, and the real “wild west.” thank you for reading.

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20 hours ago, WhiteFeather82a1 said:

i hope i posted in the correct area/page just looking for input and answers, i am a modern weapon specialist, patriot, and sawyer with “in field” experience for over ten years in the Bradshaw mountains of Arizona not limited to tracking, POI, geology, chemistry, weather, plants, animal behavior, fire behavior, the ability to see things from long ago when all factors are taken into consideration, land of the Apache, the weaver party, and the real “wild west.” thank you for reading.

Not sure why you posted here WhiteFeather, not that it matters; just wondering if you were familiar with the subject matter at all, (Spanish mine monuments), and why you picked the name WhiteFeather? What answers/input are you seeking? Any Cause and Origin fire behavior experience? Any interest in nugget shooting or prospecting?

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I thought I was posting in the right place, I was hoping to fill in some blanks on the possibility of hidden Spanish gold in the Bradshaw’s..it was a name given to me by a group of snipers conducting training near a mine where I work.. I am not a fire investigator but have worked alongside more than a few in the past while on arson fires. I plan on getting a detector because I seem to only have the eye for more natural artifacts. The main reason I am interested is the lack of answers about the origin of said artifact that resembles a bugle or horn  and due to the nature of its location and proximity to known gold mines. And of course the feeling that more artifacts could be nearby.. if that’s not good enough reason I’ll withdraw and continue to attempt to figure it out alone like I have been while living in the Bradshaw’s for the last 5 years. Maybe you or someone could reference me to a few credible authors about the subject of the reasoning and meanings of Spanish clues that may lead to “treasure.” Thank you for your input

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4 hours ago, WhiteFeather82a1 said:

I thought I was posting in the right place, I was hoping to fill in some blanks on the possibility of hidden Spanish gold in the Bradshaw’s..it was a name given to me by a group of snipers conducting training near a mine where I work.. I am not a fire investigator but have worked alongside more than a few in the past while on arson fires. I plan on getting a detector because I seem to only have the eye for more natural artifacts. The main reason I am interested is the lack of answers about the origin of said artifact that resembles a bugle or horn  and due to the nature of its location and proximity to known gold mines. And of course the feeling that more artifacts could be nearby.. if that’s not good enough reason I’ll withdraw and continue to attempt to figure it out alone like I have been while living in the Bradshaw’s for the last 5 years. Maybe you or someone could reference me to a few credible authors about the subject of the reasoning and meanings of Spanish clues that may lead to “treasure.” Thank you for your input

WhiteFeather82a1: Thanks for the detailed reply. I would encourage you to continue to post. The location you chose is appropriate for the topic.
The questions I posed were based solely on my own interest and curiosity since I was a Scout Sniper in the Marine Corps and I suspected that the name association might have have come from a reference to Gunnery Sgt. Carlos Hathcock. As you probably know, Gunny Hathcock was a  Marine Scout Sniper (who served with the 1st Mar Div in Vietnam) and was known as WhiteFeather to the Viet Cong because of the white feather he wore in his cover (boonie hat)
 I never met GySgt Hathcock but he was a legend by the time I arrived in Vietnam. Re: Fire Behavior;  I was an Insurance Fraud Investigator in the L.A. area and used to do Arson for Profit investigations (and Fire Cause and Origin) among other types of cases.
From my own personal experience, I don't know of any credible research or source material on the subject of the reasoning and meanings of Spanish clues that may lead to “treasure.” The original post under the above heading is a reference to "Spanish Monuments and Trail Markers to Treasure in the United States" by Charles A. Kenworthy, and his detailed research on this topic. From what I read in his book and observed in the field, I do believe that the monuments exist and are man made. Whether or not Kenworthy was correct in asserting that the monuments were meant to be a guide map to Spanish mines, is, of course, open to speculation and debate.
  If you care to visit the locations yourself, the monuments/rock formations referred to are not difficult to find. Feel free to P.M. me if you have any questions.
Also, if you would be willing to post photographs of your found item, there is a good possibility that a forum member might provide an identification or assist further with suggestions or other useful information.

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On 2/18/2019 at 9:21 PM, WhiteFeather82a1 said:

powder horn, trumpet, shot glass. the FACT that it was discovered beneath the root ball of an uprooted tree of such age IS enough to positively say that the “history” books..well, they leave quite a bit of info out. i never have seen the “poodle” but i see hearts and “tree deformations” quite frequently to the point where it is obvious (TO ME) that they are not natural but man made. nothing is for certain i hope someone can shed some light on my discovery. also the “horn” is non-magnetic, looks handmade but the inside is (“clearly”) honed, but yet “un-even” could be from weathering, not certain

WhiteFeather, Sorry I missed your previous posts, including the above photo. Very interesting discovery which would seem to justify a professional examination to identify and age date the item. My first take is a resemblance to a a hunting horn used to communicate between individuals and as a call for hunting dogs to return to the hunter. I have seen (and used) several that were simply hand carved steer horns and they are quite effective once mastery is obtained, which takes a little practice. I have never heard of one like you described, but I would imagine there are varying types and sizes which were used as communication devices or possibly other purposes as well. 

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5A4C18FD-BCBC-4839-992A-1E43C732EE20.jpeg

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The "horn" appears to be brass. That and the mouthpiece shape would place it in the industrial age. Probably post 1850. You say it appears to be like "granite" but it's not magnetic?

Copper when exposed to the elements for a long time will produce the green oxidation that's obvious on the surface of your object. Zinc becomes a swollen friable gray crystalline mass when weathered. Copper and zinc are the components of brass. When brass corrodes the process is known as dezincification. Dezincification in brass always results in a failure of the metal to the point of pitting and eventually losses of larger portions of metal, like the hole and green eroded area on your object.

The end result of dezincification is commonly a mass of gray, rust red and green corroded metal. It doesn't resemble what we commonly perceive as brass in the later stages of this erosion process. Here's an example of dezincification in process on a solid brass plug.

ATD12_BewareBrass02.jpg

You can see why brass when undergoing dezincification is often mistaken for ferrous metals.

It could theoretically be bronze which could date much earlier than brass objects but the mouthpiece design only dates back to the mid 18th century or later so you are still looking at a piece that's no more than 180 or so years old. Bronze can also decompose under the right circumstances but it will look nothing like brass corrosion.

Obviously the "horn" was not designed to produce music, the body is much too thick to amplify or even react to a blown note. The forward hole is located in the same position as a hunting horn swivel. My guess is it was designed and produced as a hanging wall decoration.

Edited by clay
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On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2018 at 7:41 PM, BMc said:

Perceptions and opinions may vary (for differing reasons), of course.  That's what makes a horse race, or so they tell me. My observation of the rock structures in the field, even though they are crumbling somewhat, and the resemblance of the figures to those as described by Kenworthy, along with his voluminous pages of research results,  leads me to a similar conclusion as he has postulated. My view is that these rock structures I observed were worked by hand, and up close you can see tool marks, cuts, grooves and striations in the stone similar by example, as what is most noticeable when examining an arrowhead or other artifact that has been chipped and shaped. There is, in my opinion, a noted similarity between an actual "Poodle" (especially the head), and the profile of one of the figures shown in the photographs attached to my original post. Most notably, even in the photographs, you should be able to see the large cut out area of the mouth. It angles in, like cut facets of a gemstone. The eyes and nose are cut and formed and the slab sides of the rock are cut, chiseled, and smoothed. The purpose of the Poodle monuments, according to Kenworthy, was to identify to travelers,  the '' Royal", outbound trail from the mines. The idea was for any personnel  replacements, mine inspectors, etc. to be able to locate the trails and ultimately, the mines which were concealed during certain periods.

The Indian Head monuments were directional images as well, but also to denote danger and as a warning to be alert and on constant guard in this area. In his book, Kenworthy shows photographs of an actual concealed mine that his expedition discovered, while following Spanish markers and monuments, and includes photographs and considerable detail on "Paraje's" or rest stops for travelers. Kenworthy was interested  in unidentified reststops and discusses the importance of the Prajes and ways to identify them as a possible place where valuable caches may have been left behind and never recovered.

The following is from Spanish Monuments and Trailmarkers to Treasure in the United States by Charles Kenworthy. (Photo book of Spanish mine markers on treasure trails in the US)
From the Author:
"A HEART IS THE SIGN/SYMBOL FOR "GOLD" both on written, coded and drawn maps as well as TRAILMARKERS AND MONUMENTS. The origin of this symbols meaning did not come from the Bible, as most did. This meaning came from an old Spanish adage: "A SPANIARD'S SOUL MAY YEARN FOR GOD, BUT HIS HEART FOREVER YEARNS FOR GOLD." This relationship of heart and gold was reinforced in symbolism by the historians who wrote about Cortez' response to Montezuma when Montezuma asked Cortez the question: "-WHY DO YOU SO MUCH DESIRE GOLD?" and Cortez answered "-BECAUSE WE SPANIARDS HAVE A DISEASE OF THE HEART WHICH CAN BE CURED ONLY BY GOLD." -
 So look more than twice when you see a heart carved on a large rock in the desert or on a mountain side, if it was made by the Spanish there is a gold mine or golden treasure nearby. The King of Spain ORDERED all treasure/mine trails to be monumented according to Spain's drawings of markers/monuments. The Palace of Governors in Mexico City and Santa Fe (New Mexico) INSTRUCTED the exploration groups, haciendas, mining/explorers etc. in the basics of both monument meanings and map codes.
Both Mexico City and Santa Fe regulated and enforced the King's rule, received the King's 15% to 20% fee from the haciendas/miners etc., required the trail monuments to be built so that if they wanted to "inspect/check" the operations without notice, they could easily find and follow the monumented trail into desolate mountainous terrain. Also, if all miners were to meet with some great disaster, the King of Spain could again locate and re-establish the mine - or retrieve the hidden treasure by following the monumented trail. 
Therefore, the trail markers to and from were required as well as treasure/mine maps. Note: All treasure/mine maps symbols/signs etc. were also identical in use and meaning throughout this New World. Also, a standard or special list of "measurements were used on treasure/mine maps because Spain could not operate with hundreds of different codes, measurement and different monument/marker meanings when they were dealing with so many mines in the New World.
If we think about it for a minute, it becomes very clear that Spain was extremely wise in requiring "special and specific" codes, measurements, markers and monuments on treasure trails and maps in the New World. Spain had literally thousands of mines (gold, silver, emeralds, amethysts, mercury, etc.) in Mexico, Columbia, Cuba, The United States, Peru, Guatemala etc. with many of them in desolate, distant and dangerous areas of the world. With such a number of mines they could not afford to have separate or different meanings in codes, symbols, maps and treasure/mine trail markers and monuments. Therefore, for example, even though each province/state in Spain did have a different "vara length" and the length of a league may have changed three (3) times in 300 years, but TREASURE TRAIL MONUMENTS, CODES AND MEASUREMENTS NEVER CHANGED.
The kings of Spain required "road signs" monuments and trailmarkers to be constructed about every 1,200 feet both to and from the treasure/mine. Spot just any one of these while fishing, hunting, hiking or treasure seeking and follow the trail--to a prize bigger than the lottery."  This book has over 100 actual photos of classic Spanish markers & monuments (in the field) as well as their meanings and instructions.

The below photographs illustrate the author's method and manner of identification of a Royal Poodle monument as referenced in the accompanying text.

2064695576_POODLEPHOTO.PNG.a09c095941ea3POODLE-  NOTES.PNG

 

 

There is something very similar in Needles Canyon LDM area.  If the Spanish used it, probably was already there, maybe even native culture origin.

LDM Pointing Face-crop.jpg

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On second thought, it doesn't compare with stone heads carved by native people, such as on Easter Island. If man made and not natural, it would have to Spanish because it's obviously crude, even ugly.

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 :th_rain-umbrella:

 

Edited by Red_desert

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This one caught my eye the other day.  Reasonably certain it’s Natural, tho

45EC7819-6DDD-4B8E-B5D7-5EA48E790DA3.jpeg

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I really doubt there's any Spanish Mines left, never mind list Spanish Treasure.  They got the easy to get to stuff, and these have been hit for 160 years since Americans have had access to this area.  IMO the prospectors of the last 160 years have recovered this lost treasure, mot of which kept these finds to themselves to prevent questions and taxes, and have long since spent it.

I do think its odd that there's many a tales of lost gold since AZ became part of America, but prior to that no tales exist.  Even though I don't think its there, I think it'd be fun to go looking for something like that.  It'd be good campfire talk.  I do enjoy the displays of the Lost Dutchman's mine in the different local museums.  

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The Spanish left plenty of evidence of their activities. We can see all sorts of markings in the areas they traveled. There is good history and we know exactly how they navigated and located many mines. We can go there, look at the evidence and travel the known trails. The Spanish have a rich, well documented history. They built a culture and created a European civilization in New Mexico that in many ways exists today. We can actually go and see what Spanish masons of that period built. We can look at the carvings they actually did in the rock as markings. We also see the carvings they did as art. We can compare this to what we see in the field and ask ourselves the burning question, "Does this look like that?".

We see the results of the Spanish conquest of the western hemisphere from the tip of Brazil to the Otay Owingeh pueblo in Northern New Mexico. We can assume that any evidence of Spanish activity would fall in line with that pattern. We can assume that anything that falls way outside that pattern or is completely dissimilar probably is not of Spanish origin. To assume otherwise would be illogical unless there was some sort of real evidence to connect the dots.

Now, we can daydream and fantasize and that is all good. It is great campfire talk if'n you are into that kind of thing. And those theories might make an enjoyable read once in a while. I just cant see how any of it could ever lead to actionable information to put a shovel in the ground. Even if you discovered a Spanish marker or an arrastra in an area it is not going to give you  the info you need to start detecting or digging. The location of a marker you could (reasonably) say was Spanish would be a bigger find than any gold our treasure that you could find as a result of discovering it.

Humbly and respectfully submitted as a personal opinion and not intended to discount any deeply held beliefs to the contrary. 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, OferAZ said:

This one caught my eye the other day.  Reasonably certain it’s Natural, tho

45EC7819-6DDD-4B8E-B5D7-5EA48E790DA3.jpeg

Kenworthy's book indicates that the Spanish had a method of distinguishing a man made monument from a natural stone formation by the construction of an open hole in the rock formation (or vicinity), where light could be seen through the hole.  A close up examination of the monument/formation, should show one or more holes which bear visual indications of:  a) drilling/ sloping sides which reveal tool marks or impressions. AND/OR:  b) hand placed stone(s) which have been anchored and cemented in place by mortar (that also may have been used to cement the above rock formation/figure head in place)

The above formation appears to have a couple of holes through which light is visible. If the figure can be safely accessed at close range, it should be possible to make this type of verification.

 

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18 hours ago, BMc said:

Kenworthy's book indicates that the Spanish had a method of distinguishing a man made monument from a natural stone formation by the construction of an open hole in the rock formation (or vicinity), where light could be seen through the hole.  A close up examination of the monument/formation, should show one or more holes which bear visual indications of:  a) drilling/ sloping sides which reveal tool marks or impressions. AND/OR:  b) hand placed stone(s) which have been anchored and cemented in place by mortar (that also may have been used to cement the above rock formation/figure head in place)

The above formation appears to have a couple of holes through which light is visible. If the figure can be safely accessed at close range, it should be possible to make this type of verification.

 

Just for the sake of discussion...

Kenworthy claims the Spanish marked trails in this fashion. Does he cite any references to back any of that up?

Can one documented example of this kind of "Spanish marker" be found anywhere else in the Southwest? In the western hemisphere? If so, where?

Why would a mortared stone be attributed to the Spanish conquest?  Would this not be more logically connected to the much later periods of colonization or the Mexican occupation than the Spanish? 

Why are markers like these unique to the specific areas where the Spanish are not known to exist and so different from the markings they left where they were known to exist?

Why is this method of navigation and marking so unlike the methods of navigation and marking that we know the Spanish used to conquer the rest of the globe?

About the poodles... Why did the Spanish not carve poodles in Santa Fe? Or Chihuahua City? Or Mexico City? Of all the Spanish art and culture on display there are no poodles.  If the Conquistadors took "skilled masons" into the boondocks to carve outcrops into poodles why didn't they carve poodles when they built the cities? Please untangle that one for me. 

These are the disconnects I see with the whole idea and I think it is fair to ask these questions. There are huge logical gaps in the concept and I don't think it is vicious or mean to point them out. So, not meaning to cause distress or frustration can we bridge some of these gaps?

 

 

 

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Since we're on the topic of trail markers, what's your thoughts on the old trails being marked by Saguaros cut off?  Supposed to be done with line of sight.  Since these things can live to a couple hundred years or more, some should still be around with the tops cut off.  I've never seen any that line up in a trail, nor could I tell a cut off limb caused by a hundred year old lightning strike from a hundred year old saw mark.  Something an old timer told me that I've been looking for, but never found any sign of a trail.

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Saguaros rarely live more than 150 years. It's been 200 years since the Spanish left Arizona. Cutting off the top of a Saguaro usually results in a rapid death for the cactus.

I think your "old timer" was telling tales chrisski. :old:

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Clay...You and I both know this old timer and went out to his claim.  He did occasionally tell tall tales.  Gave me something to look for on my explorations.

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2 hours ago, chrisski said:

Since we're on the topic of trail markers, what's your thoughts on the old trails being marked by Saguaros cut off?  Supposed to be done with line of sight.  Since these things can live to a couple hundred years or more, some should still be around with the tops cut off.  I've never seen any that line up in a trail, nor could I tell a cut off limb caused by a hundred year old lightning strike from a hundred year old saw mark.  Something an old timer told me that I've been looking for, but never found any sign of a trail.

According to Kenworthy:  The use of trail markers as described above, along with cut marks on trees, cairns, stacked rocks etc were used by Mexican miners. The Spanish avoided these types of markers because they were considered unreliable, changeable, not permanent, and subject to deterioration. The stone monuments (including the Poodle monuments) were allegedly constructed at the direction of the King of Spain, and the Poodle was at that time, the favorite breed (pet) of the Royal court (and the country at large)

Since there seems to be some continued interest in the subject, (or at least interest in proving me wrong) :) (Not you Chris), I will re-check the Kenworthy publication and see if I can submit a follow up segment in the future.

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I know someone who has been chasing the spanish and mexican  signs and symbols and dog symbols are very common finds ... The searcher has followed clues and dug down to find dog heads carved into the bedrock ... Other symbols too, like lightning bolts and hearts, etc. ... I was surprised to learn how many  covert treasure hunters are running around the desert ... Amazing ! Cheers, Unc

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9 hours ago, BMc said:

According to Kenworthy:  The use of trail markers as described above, along with cut marks on trees, cairns, stacked rocks etc were used by Mexican miners. The Spanish avoided these types of markers because they were considered unreliable, changeable, not permanent, and subject to deterioration. The stone monuments (including the Poodle monuments) were allegedly constructed at the direction of the King of Spain, and the Poodle was at that time, the favorite breed (pet) of the Royal court (and the country at large)

Since there seems to be some continued interest in the subject, (or at least interest in proving me wrong) :) (Not you Chris), I will re-check the Kenworthy publication and see if I can submit a follow up segment in the future.

No one is interested in proving you wrong Mac. This isn't about you. This is about carved poodles.

I'm just trying to sort out the obvious questions one would ask before considering that the Spanish carved outcroppings into poodles to mark their trail. If we cant, or won't discuss these obvious gaps in the theory then that is fine too. I would not want to cause anyone distress.

There is no argument the Spanish liked poodles. It is just strange that they didn't seem to bother to carve any other poodles anywhere. At all. Just that one rock that does not even look like a poodle. Or carved.

And even if the rock is a poorly carved poodle what makes us think the Spanish carved it? Because they liked poodles? You must admit that is some curly logic my friend!

Kenworthy is a storyteller and his "facts" are often just not true. Many elements of this story fly in the face of what is commonly known about the Spanish, outcroppings and poodles in general. So some basic discussion about the theory really needs to happen. Some "facts" that have been thrown out need real reference and Kenworthy is not a reference for his own wild claims. Neither is he a reference for yours.

Again, if you don't want to discuss these obvious issues then that is cool. But I don't think it is picking on you to point out the gaps in the logic. Anyone who is actually seeking treasure would have to ask the same questions when evaluating the validity of these wild claims. 

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Hey, B-Bob ... Like you (I think) many parts of these treasure stories are seemingly farfetched ... But after years of observing a close friend searching, he's brought enough evidence to see that these treasure hunts can often be the real deal ... I do know one person who acquired a "Kino" gold bar and told me of many amazing finds back in the day ... Of course, anyone who actually scored a treasure is not going to 'splain the where, what and when of such things...But it is exciting to know about first hand and not just some story or legend!  Cheers, Unc

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35 minutes ago, Uncle Ron said:

Hey, B-Bob ... Like you (I think) many parts of these treasure stories are seemingly farfetched ... But after years of observing a close friend searching, he's brought enough evidence to see that these treasure hunts can often be the real deal ... I do know one person who acquired a "Kino" gold bar and told me of many amazing finds back in the day ... Of course, anyone who actually scored a treasure is not going to 'splain the where, what and when of such things...But it is exciting to know about first hand and not just some story or legend!  Cheers, Unc

There is fact and there is fiction. Guys who follow fact sometimes find treasure. Guys who follow fiction don't find any.

You have to employ common sense and ask the tough questions to tell fact from fiction. If you don't ask the questions or refuse to admit the questions exist then you are playing some other game all together. 

My guess is there are more Spanish treasures out there than outcrops carved into poodles by Spanish masons. Just a hunch. I could be wrong.

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39 minutes ago, Uncle Ron said:

Hey, B-Bob ... Like you (I think) many parts of these treasure stories are seemingly farfetched ... But after years of observing a close friend searching, he's brought enough evidence to see that these treasure hunts can often be the real deal ... I do know one person who acquired a "Kino" gold bar and told me of many amazing finds back in the day ... Of course, anyone who actually scored a treasure is not going to 'splain the where, what and when of such things...But it is exciting to know about first hand and not just some story or legend!  Cheers, Unc

I tend to agree, Uncle Ron. I personally find first hand information more interesting. Especially if it's about gold and in a place where we know gold is found. If I had simply formed an opinion about the rock formations just by reading a book and looking at pictures, I still might have thought that they were interesting (or perhaps not) But as I mentioned before, I took the time to climb (crawl) up onto the figures and I observed the obvious tool marks and evidence of chipping, carving and restructuring that anyone could see in person. I had no interest in conducting a forensic examination to posit as proof of the matter asserted. I made two trips to the location and I concluded that I had seen enough to form an opinion that the formations had been worked by hand tools. The information in Kenworthy's book offered what I still believe to be a reasonable explanation, absent any proof to the contrary. (Bancroft et al notwithstanding) Others have the same opportunity to research the subject or go to the site and make their own observations.  When I made the post I wasn't planning on trying to convince anyone of anything and I'm still not. Nor am I interested in arguing with anyone in the guise of a debate. 

Mac

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Mac, here is what you wrote. It was presented as "fact"...

"All treasure/mine maps symbols/signs etc. were also identical in use and meaning throughout this New World. Also, a standard or special list of "measurements were used on treasure/mine maps because Spain could not operate with hundreds of different codes, measurement and different monument/marker meanings when they were dealing with so many mines in the New World.
If we think about it for a minute, it becomes very clear that Spain was extremely wise in requiring "special and specific" codes, measurements, markers and monuments on treasure trails and maps in the New World. Spain had literally thousands of mines (gold, silver, emeralds, amethysts, mercury, etc.) in Mexico, Columbia, Cuba, The United States, Peru, Guatemala etc. with many of them in desolate, distant and dangerous areas of the world. With such a number of mines they could not afford to have separate or different meanings in codes, symbols, maps and treasure/mine trail markers and monuments. Therefore, for example, even though each province/state in Spain did have a different "vara length" and the length of a league may have changed three (3) times in 300 years, but TREASURE TRAIL MONUMENTS, CODES AND MEASUREMENTS NEVER CHANGED.
The kings of Spain required "road signs" monuments and trailmarkers to be constructed about every 1,200 feet both to and from the treasure/mine. Spot just any one of these while fishing, hunting, hiking or treasure seeking and follow the trail--to a prize bigger than the lottery." "

 

If this is true please tell us where we can find even one of these monuments anywhere in the western hemisphere. If they actually did this then there should be one other example out there somewhere shouldn't there? After all Spain had "literally thousands of mines (gold, silver, emeralds, amethysts, mercury, etc.) in Mexico, Columbia, Cuba, The United States, Peru, Guatemala etc."

I pointed out that the poodle theory did not seem to fit with any pattern that the Spanish followed anywhere else in the world. Yet you seem to be saying that this was the pattern and they did this with uniformity across the New World. Something is not adding up with the story. 

It is not argument or debate to point out the glaring disconnects in the story. It is just applying logic to an obviously concocted tale.

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