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SPANISH MINE MONUMENTS IN THE BRADSHAWS?

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Posted (edited)

Indians among the rocks, at Acoma Reservation. This reservation has old Mesoamerican sites.

 

among-the-rocks-acoma-LG.jpg

among-the-rocks-acoma-LGcrop.jpg

Edited by Red_desert

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1 hour ago, Red_desert said:

Yes, I see they are not the same rocks. Think this is the photo I'd remembered. Water girls of a Peublo tribe, at the Acoma Reservation. The boulder on top, possibly carved out to hold rain water? Don't know what the boulder looks like on top or why water girls would be there, unless it is a sacred site and water is to drink by thirsty dancers of the ceremony. Makes more sense the girls have carried drinking water out to a site.

 

 

acoma water girls_LG.jpg

The Acoma Water Girls series was photographed by Edward S. Curtis in 1905.

There is no ceremony, sacred site or water reservoir on the rock. Edward Curtis acquired costumes for and posed natives all over the west during that period as part of a commercial effort to make and sell photographs to a public eager to learn more about "indians" and their culture. These women(?) were native models and the dress and locations were chosen for their composition and interest values. All three of the photos in this series were posed and photographed on the same day with the same models.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, I did finally come across that info about the photographer' There are some Mesoamerican sites on the reservation. I think if you could get access out away from sky city, might be surprised what is out there.

Edited by Red_desert

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3 minutes ago, Red_desert said:

There are some Mesoamerican sites on the reservation.

Oh my.  Where on earth did you get the idea that Mesoamerica ever extended above the southern Mexican states?

I've never even seen such a claim in academia. Perhaps this idea comes from an entertainment show on television or popular culture. :idunno:

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4 hours ago, gollumses said:

Don't know what part of NM you are in, but two large caches of gold bars were found using a combination of a map and monuments shown on the map. ........... I'll explain for those smarta$$es among you who are mentally limited:

Mike first and foremost welcome to the forum, I have read many of your posts on TreasureNet over the last decade+, I have been a member there since 2007, your input here is very welcomed and I'm sure will provide more insight on this subject matter, so post more please!

That all being said I feel I must explain the few rules we have here at NuggetShooter, first no posting links to other vendors since the forum owner sells metal detecting and prospecting supplies, second no posting Political or Religion subject matter, thirdly no direct or indirect insults towards other members, all members here are entitled too and can post their own opinions on "most" any given subject matter, the area forbidden to post your opinions are as stated....personal insulting opinions of another forum member, Political and Religious opinions.

So far you are doing good except in one area, the personal insult area as noted in your quoted post excerpt above, so in the future please refrain from such postings.

From time to time some others also get a bit out of line but I as an Administrator visit this forum several times a day and try my best to put a stop to it ASAP. once I see such happening.

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Clay,

Maybe he meant Mesopotamian? We have a Mesopotamian family that moved in just down the road. They seem to be wonderful people.

They might have had a site on the reservation. Maybe over by Toadlena somewhere....

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Do you have any pictures of the cache of gold and silver coins you recovered?  Would be nice to see pics of some recent, SW USA treasure hunt successes, recent being in anyone’s lifetime on the forum.  I read a lot about missing local treasures, but never about recovered local treasures.

IMO some of these recovered treasures have been sold on the quiet to avoid taxes, and the easier stuff recovered prior to 1900 in the 19th century.

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Prehistoric would have been a better word to use, I guess Mesoamerican is strickly in reference to ancient middle or central American cultures.

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6 hours ago, gollumses said:

Don't know what part of NM you are in, but two large caches of gold bars were found using a combination of a map and monuments shown on the map. There are also tons of monuments along the "El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro" from Mexico City to Santa Fe. I'll explain for those smarta$$es among you who are mentally limited:

Nowadays if you are driving from Mexico City to Santa Fe, you follow street signs from El Paso del Norte (El Paso) that shows you are on Highway 25 through Las Cruces and Albuquerque, through to Santa Fe. Imagine it's 1620. El Camino Real de Tierra Adentro was a long road through the wilderness. Almost 1600 miles through some nasty deserts and mountains. First, you have to show where the trail is. Official maps were expensive and could become unusable with one big rainstorm and/or flood. Because the road was so long, you also couldn't bring all the water you need. There needed to be a way to show where there were springs and sources of water the entire way. 

Now, closer to Mexico City, where there was a lot of population, it was an actual road (these pics are not mine, I pulled them off of the internet):

 

caminoreal1.jpg

caminoreal2.jpg

 

Here is a section of the Camino Real near Zacatecas, Mex. For those that don't know, Zacatecas is in the mountains:

caminoreal3.jpeg

 

......and here are a couple from areas North of the current US/Mexico Border:

caminoreal4.jpg

caminoreal5.jpg

 

In the 17th Century, maps MIGHT have been accurate to within a couple of miles (if you even had an official map). Markers and Monuments were needed to show travelers where the trail was, where water sources were.

 

Now to the subject of Poodles. LOL I'm still on the fence with this one. Since Chuck Kenworthy included this in his book, I have to assume that this was written about somewhere in the documents he received from Libraries and Museums over the years. Without knowing for certain, my guess is that while building a Camino Real (Royal Road), the builders/surveyors came across a large rock that looked like a Poodle, so they made the connection. I have seen nothing in any official Spanish relacion, jornada, or cedula that mentions the repeated use of Poodles as a monument denoting a Royal Road. In order for the Poodle Theory to have any kind of provenance (to me) there would need to be several instances of the Poodle Monuments along Royal Roads. Luckily, we know the routes of the four largest Spanish Royal Roads, but since it has nothing to do with treasure or mines, most put it low on their list to research (myself as well).

 

Mike

EDIT:

While Kenworthy's Pic does kind of look like a Poodle in a sitting upright pose, I just hear in my head "There is no Dana.....only ZUUL!" LOL

I don't know what to tell you Mike except you have your work cut out for you if you expect to convince the skeptics on this forum of much of anything when it comes to tales of Treasure (IMO), myself included. I also have periodically run across your blogs and claims over the years, and reserve comment. I do not consider myself a Treasure Hunter (with rare exceptions), and based my opinions regarding the Indian Head and Poodle rock formation based on Kenworthy's book, photos and my own in field observations and inspection of the "monuments" which show indicia of physical tool marks in/on the structure, IMO. My interest in the rock formations are predominantly for historical purposes, and because they stand out as being unexplained, as I have previously indicated. I don't care about the "dog pile" that you referred to since I am not trying to push my opinion off on anyone or engage/prevail in a pissing contest with the skeptics or antagonists on the forum since everyone here is entitled to their own 2 cents worth (opinion). 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, clay said:

Interesting method of introducing your ideas and beliefs to a new audience.

Has this been effective for you in the past Mike?

Clay,

Maybe you should reread this entire thread to see where smarta$$ed remarks started. All I did was come in to add knowledge to BMc's initial question. The fact that I take a less than kissbutt reaction to people making snide comments from the Peanut Gallery is strictly my lack of patience with BS. What you think about my statements should be after you make a statement regarding how BMc was treated............and before anybody gets any ideas........I don't know who BMc is. I have zero knowledge about anything to do with BMc other than this thread.

Bedrock Bob,

Depending on who you are, you may be absolutely correct. I don't know anything about you. If you thought my comment was directed at you, maybe that says more about you than me or my comment? What is your real name? You have mine. Are you someone that I would know (or heard of) if I told you that my friends over the years in the Caballo, San Andres, and Fray Cristobal Mountains go back to the 1920s (although the two from the 1920s have since passed away)? Friends working the Organs and Cookes Peak since the 1970s-80s?

 

AU Seeker,

Thanks for the info, but as I stated in my post, my comment was not directed at any person in particular, but if someone took offense, maybe it was their conscience. My comment was also only made after several episodes of snide dismissive remarks from a couple of posters. Just look at the comments regarding Red_Desert's "Mesoamerican" Post.

Instead of being smarta$$es and insulting of Red_Desert, they may want to actually learn that the term "Mesoamerican" doesn't just refer to the physical boundaries from Central Mexico to about the Northern border of Panama. The term "Mesoamerican" refers to the tribes that have made up that area since about 700BCE. Funny thing, the Aztecs were Mesoamerican. The Maya were Mesoamerican. The Toltecs were Mesoamerican. 

That said, the Aztecs claimed their ancestral homeland was far to the North of Tenochtitlan in a place called Aztlan. That would make a Mesoamerican Site in America. Here is a picture of a Mayan Glyph Tile found in a cave in the Superstition Moumtains in Arizona:

skullglyphfragment2.jpg

Around the turn of the century (about 1908), a Park Service Supervisor in an official report stated that a Spanish Mission Site was built on top of an old Aztec/Maya Temple. A friend asked me to help them find the site. He is an academic, and even he was hesitant about officially reporting some of the stuff we found, as it may have impacted his career. Here is what was left of an Aztec Jaguar/Warrior Panel Carving (heavily eroded):

Aztec Cat.jpg

Also near the Superstition Mountains in a place called Hieroglyphic Canyon, a large rock was shown by the Sacaton Pima Tribe that several Archaeologists confirmed was a petroglyph of the Mayan Calendar. A group of Mormons moved it to the Mormon Temple at Mesa, Az. That was 1931 (IIRC).

 

Calendar Rock.JPG

So those would be considered "Mesoamerican" Sites even though they are far to the North of where the borders of Mesoamerica are currently thought to be. There are a ton more stories that have no hard/direct evidence. 

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10 minutes ago, gollumses said:

Clay,

Maybe you should reread this entire thread to see where smarta$$ed remarks started. All I did was come in to add knowledge to BMc's initial question. The fact that I take a less than kissbutt reaction to people making snide comments from the Peanut Gallery is strictly my lack of patience with BS. What you think about my statements should be after you make a statement regarding how BMc was treated............and before anybody gets any ideas........I don't know who BMc is. I have zero knowledge about anything to do with BMc other than this thread.

Bedrock Bob,

Depending on who you are, you may be absolutely correct. I don't know anything about you. If you thought my comment was directed at you, maybe that says more about you than me or my comment? What is your real name? You have mine. Are you someone that I would know (or heard of) if I told you that my friends over the years in the Caballo, San Andres, and Fray Cristobal Mountains go back to the 1920s (although the two from the 1920s have since passed away)? Friends working the Organs and Cookes Peak since the 1970s-80s?

 

AU Seeker,

Thanks for the info, but as I stated in my post, my comment was not directed at any person in particular, but if someone took offense, maybe it was their conscience. My comment was also only made after several episodes of snide dismissive remarks from a couple of posters. Just look at the comments regarding Red_Desert's "Mesoamerican" Post.

Instead of being smarta$$es and insulting of Red_Desert, they may want to actually learn that the term "Mesoamerican" doesn't just refer to the physical boundaries from Central Mexico to about the Northern border of Panama. The term "Mesoamerican" refers to the tribes that have made up that area since about 700BCE. Funny thing, the Aztecs were Mesoamerican. The Maya were Mesoamerican. The Toltecs were Mesoamerican. 

That said, the Aztecs claimed their ancestral homeland was far to the North of Tenochtitlan in a place called Aztlan. That would make a Mesoamerican Site in America. Here is a picture of a Mayan Glyph Tile found in a cave in the Superstition Moumtains in Arizona:

skullglyphfragment2.jpg

Around the turn of the century (about 1908), a Park Service Supervisor in an official report stated that a Spanish Mission Site was built on top of an old Aztec/Maya Temple. A friend asked me to help them find the site. He is an academic, and even he was hesitant about officially reporting some of the stuff we found, as it may have impacted his career. Here is what was left of an Aztec Jaguar/Warrior Panel Carving (heavily eroded):

Aztec Cat.jpg

Also near the Superstition Mountains in a place called Hieroglyphic Canyon, a large rock was shown by the Sacaton Pima Tribe that several Archaeologists confirmed was a petroglyph of the Mayan Calendar. A group of Mormons moved it to the Mormon Temple at Mesa, Az. That was 1931 (IIRC).

 

Calendar Rock.JPG

So those would be considered "Mesoamerican" Sites even though they are far to the North of where the borders of Mesoamerica are currently thought to be. There are a ton more stories that have no hard/direct evidence. 

Mike, with respect, I personally think that this is the type of documentation that will support your presentations on the forum, and I do appreciate your support and for adding to the knowledge base regarding the subject matter that I originated. There is, generally, a great deal of interest in the subject matter, as you well know. 

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, gollumses said:

Clay,

Maybe you should reread this entire thread to see where smarta$$ed remarks started.

All the other boys were doing it so it's OK for you to do it too?

My mother taught me the answer to your apparent conundrum by posing the question.

"If all your friends jumped off a cliff would you jump too?"

The thing is, in my experience, humans can do amazing things when they work together. My comment was about helping you to understand that non-cooperation is a zero in my book. Nobody gets squat done when oneupmanship is the theme of the day.

We don't have to agree with one another to reach a greater understanding. Basic courtesy can go a long way to exposing the points two parties have in common when they disagree. It's a skill but it's not that hard to learn.

Mom also taught me that the bigger man walks away from a circular argument.

Here I go... :olddude:

Edited by clay
Cause Bob did it first
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Posted (edited)

 

 

 

"Ancient tribes came to Manataka on pilgrimages to place ceremonial items in five of the caves.  The people of the south laid gifts in the southern-most cave and people of the north laid their gifts in the northern-most cave.  Two other caves were used by the people from the west and east for offering ceremonies.   The cave located to the left of the crystal cave was used by the 'Keepers of Manataka', the Tula Indians, who lived in surrounding areas and for other tribes living nearby such as the Caddo, Quapaw, Osage, Tunica, and Pawnee.  To the right of the center crystal cave was a ceremonial cave reserved for gifts of the other people of this land - the animals, birds, fish, insects, plants, stones and the elements.  No one ever approached the most sacred crystal cave, as it was said to have been the work place of the star people (angels?) and resting place of many spirits." 

 

"The southern-most cave, nearest the surface of the ground, once held the Manataka Stone, or as referred to by the National Park Service as the "Calendar Stone" was brought by people from the south.  The Calendar Stone was removed after the Civil War by workmen digging on the mountain to capture the sacred waters of Nowasalon and build ornate bathhouses for the rich.  The National Park Service claimed possession of the Calendar Stone for many years, but it later disappeared and today they claim it was a hoax. "

STORY OF MANATAKA-Manataka American Indian Council

Edited by Red_desert

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Honoring The Tula

People of the Great Water

 

Caddo_Gap_Indian.jpgThe Tula vanished sometime between 1541 and the 1600's presumably as a result of disease brought by the Spanish.  It was suggested by Swanton that the Tula assimilated into Caddo tribes, meaning their descendants would be enrolled in the Caddo Nation of Oklahoma  today.

 

Today in the center of Caddo Gap, Arkansas stands a large bronze figure of an Indian nine feet in height, mounted on a tall pedestal of native stone. The Indian has his right hand raised, giving the friendship sign, but history tells a different story. The inscription on the marble tablet in the face of the pedestal reads: 

 

"De Soto 1541-A.D. Here De Soto reached his most westward point in the United States. Here was the capitol of the warlike Tula tribe of Indians who fiercely fought De Soto and his men. Relics found in this vicinity suggest the romance of past centuries about which history will ever be meager and incomplete. Arkansas State History Commission, 1936."

 

In May 1937 Chief Benito Gray Horse, an Apache and a later-day Keeper of Manataka living in Gulpha Gorge at the foot of the great Manataka Mountain in Hot Springs, gave an Indian benediction at the raising of the bronze statute at Caddo Gap commemorating the achievements of the Tula people. 

 

~~~~~~~~

The Tula and Hernando De Soto

Tattoo%20Tula.jpg

According to indigenous people encountered by the Conquistadors after they crossed the Mississippi River in 1541, the Tula were very rich and powerful, known as the keepers of a "great water".  The Tula were also known among many southern tribes to be fierce fighters who often used battle tactics completely unknown to other tribes.  The most ferocious tribe on the southern plains were the Osage who often ventured south to raid peaceful Caddo villages near the Tula.  The Osage kept a wide-berth around the Tula.   

 

The Tula maintained many small scattered villages and farms of individual families stretching several miles east along the Caddo and Ouachita rivers leading to their main village. (called Caddo Gap today).  East along the Ouachita river (called Anilco in Spanish chronicles) the Tula kept overnight lodging and supply stations that were used during frequent trips to the great waters of the hot springs (Manataka - a Tula word).  As the Ouachita river neared the area of the hot springs, about 40 miles east of their main village, the Tula maintained a large work village to process the valuable whetstone (novaculite) and house people who came to bathe in the hot springs.  That work village was located at the foot of Hot Springs (Manataka) Mountain on Hot Springs creek near Indian Mountain.

 

As the arrogant Conquistadors worked their way west along the Caddo River after leaving the rugged Zig Zag Mountains, (also described in the narratives) they robbed and enslaved several people from small scattered Tula farming areas before coming to the main village.  There the headmen and women of the Tula told the Conquistadors that they must return all that was stolen.  The Conquistadors refused and a battle began. 

 

The first day of the battle the Tula were nearly decimated.  The Tula had never seen the frightening spectacle of men on horseback.  The Tula had never seen men-beasts wearing metal helmets and breastplates that easily repelled their arrows and lances.  The Tula had never felt the sting of bullets or heard the roar of cannon fire. The Tula warriors carried long pole lances that proved very effective against Conquistador cavalry. Many Tula warriors were lost on the first day of battle. 

 

That evening the head men and women of the Tula decided to change battle tactics and planned a guerrilla campaign to sabotage and slow the Spanish.  Tula warriors used the mountainous terrain to hit-and-run against the Spanish and lured a number of Spanish to an area beneath the river gorge and rolled massive whetstone slabs and boulders down on top of the Spanish and their horses.  By sundown of the second day, it was evident the Conquistadors lost many men and horses. The Tula tasted the blood of their new enemy and knew who he was from prophesies of old.  That night, Tula leaders decided not to send their warriors back into battle against the Conquistadors. 

 

Before dawn the next morning, rifle shots, cannon fire and screaming were heard by Tula warriors as they emerged from the lodges that was coming from the direction of the Spanish encampment.  Surprised, they went to the battle area and saw Tula women who were charging Spanish battle lines.   The Conquistadors became confused and demoralized at the sight of fearless, screaming, mostly nude women coming at them in battle.  The Spanish turned tail and ran.  It was the first time the Conquistadors retreated during their long adventure in North America.  After being defeated after a three-day battle with the Tula at Caddo Gap the Conquistadors made a u-turn and retreated along the Ouachita River to discover the "great waters" of the hot springs several days later, some say ten days later they found the great hot springs waters. 

 

De Soto's secretary, Rodrigo Ranjel described the Tula as, "the best fighting people that the Christians met with."  Battles with the Tula convinced De Soto to turn around and find the easiest egress to the south and the ocean.

 

The Spanish version of the battle with the Tula is different than stories told by Tula survivors.  According to the Spanish version, they lost only a few men and horses and they voluntarily decided to turn back because the Tula advised them there was nothing beyond Caddo Gap.  Spanish narratives tell a tale about a Tula chief who came begging for relief and gifted the Spanish with buffalo robes and other gifts.  The Spanish decided to spare him and his people. 

 

Travels of De Soto's Spanish Conquistadors and the Tula People

~~~~~~~

Origins of the Tula

Several historians refer to the Tula as being from Caddo stock, but there is little evidence to support this claim.  The Tula lived in far northern frontier regions of Caddo territory and far beyond the western frontier of the Quapaw.  The Osage lived far to the north and when their hunting parties raided the peaceful local farming villages of the Caddo, they conspicuously avoided the TulaThe Tula were like other North American Indians in many ways, but they were unique among all their neighbors.

 

There were at least four small Caddo bands in the area and contrary to comments of some historians, the Tula were not Caddo.  Yes, the Tula spoke some of the Caddo language, but they did so for trade purposes and as result of inner-marriage with people from nearby villages.  But, their primary language was not Caddo and remains unclassified.

 

Conehead%20Tula1.gifUnlike any tribe in North America, the Tula raised ducks and domesticated turkeys. They planted  Amaranth and Yam Beans, a turnip-like root, that were unknown to any local tribe.  The Tula also built religious structures like sweat lodges and meeting places were built in the shape of a pyramid!

 

Another bit of evidence that the Tula were not Caddo is that local tribes were horrified by the deformed heads of the TulaThe 16th century Spanish chroniclers wrote that the Tula practiced cranial deformation and tattooed their bodies. They fought with large spears. Intentionally elongated or flattened skulls are associated with several ancient Mesoamerican cultures such as at Mesa Verde Cliff Dwellers, the Inca of South America, and the Toltec of Central America.  The Tula tightly bound the heads of infants so that their heads became pointed or flat. 

 

Some historians say that the Tula were ancestors of the Spiroans - (Spiro Mounds of Oklahoma) or the Tunica of Mississippi, or the Wichita Indians of Texas.  There is little evidence to support this notion and none of these assumptions are correct.

 

Tula_Statue,%20Mexico.jpgIt is our opinion the Tula were descendants of the Tula de Allend in the Tula Valley, in what is now the southwest of the Mexican state of Hidalgo, northwest of Mexico City. The inhabitants of Tula were called Toltecs,

 

Tula (Tollán) near the present-day town of Tula de Allende (about 50 miles north of Mexico City) lie the remains of Tollán, the ancient capital city of the Toltec empire that thrived from 900 CE to 1170. The Tula were the ancient teachers of the Toltec and the Maya people.

 

 

Tula%20Temple%20Pyramid.jpg

(A Mississippi valley house and a Temple Pyramid in the back- ground. From the American Museum of Natural History.)

 

The primary distinction of the Tula is not their origin, lifestyle, customs, or appearance, but the important role they played as the Keepers of Manataka.   As a fierce and independent people the Tula could have easily closed all paths to this sacred site.  Yet, in their wisdom and strength, the Tula welcomed all tribes in peace and helped their brothers and sisters during their stay.  They served as guides and spiritual guides to other realms.

 

The word "Tula" and "Manataka" are words forever etched into the sacred ceremonial centers of the Toltec.

 

There is strong evidence that shows the Tula were the ancestors of the Toltec and ancient teachers of the Maya. The Tula regularly sent emissaries across the continent, north and south to many far outposts and became prominent in those communities.  The Tula of Caddo Gap were originally from Central America.

 

The Tula named the hot springs, Manataka (The Unbroken Circle) and were the sacred Keepers of Manataka.

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There is an old site along the southern border, Native Americans got upset because they blasted their way through it, to put in the border wall.

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Posted (edited)

I spend allot of time flying a helicopter around the southern Arizona desert and this rock is the only possible Spanish marker I've seen so far. I still haven't found any rock carvings or other elaborate markers. Once you get an eye for what their mining methods looked like you can find their digs scattered all over south of Arivaca.  

20190921_162647.jpg

Edited by Desertpilot
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There are people who have spent a lot of time searching for them.

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On 3/26/2020 at 7:42 AM, Desertpilot said:

I spend allot of time flying a helicopter around the southern Arizona desert and this rock is the only possible Spanish marker I've seen so far. I still haven't found any rock carvings or other elaborate markers. Once you get an eye for what their mining methods looked like you can find their digs scattered all over south of Arivaca.  

20190921_162647.jpg

Maybe a body under that rock pile

 

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24 minutes ago, Edge said:

Maybe a body under that rock pile

 

Don't know if you're joking or not, but I was surprised to find out about a couple of dozen local graves around the San Domingo Wash.  The pictures I saw were basically a shallow pile of rocks one or two feet high, about 8 feet long, and two or three feet wide. 

The picture in this post of the pile of rocks are much bigger and harder to move by hand.  Although possible its man made, my first impression from that one pic is because the rocks are all the same to include weathering it is a natural rock formation like a pillar that has eroded by cracking into smaller rocks over the eons.  At some point, someone carved or painted a cross on it.

I am completely jealous of a job where you get to fly helicopters around.  Now that, is living the dream.

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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, Edge said:

Maybe a body under that rock pile

 

If you look on the rocks below the Cross there are Hohokam petroglyphs. So if someone was buried in that boulder pile it was done well before the Spanish arrived.

I shared this pic awhile back with a retired miner that has had success in finding some old Spanish mines. He seemed to think the five triangles under the cross represented the five Jesuit Missions that are in the area. But like Indian petroglyphs  its up to your interpretation. Personally I think it may have been a trail marker between two missions since there is a scattering of pottery heading in the direction of the two missions. But Im not a archaeologist or a expert in Spanish rock art so who knows?    

Edited by Desertpilot

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