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Can't believe no one responded to this topic but taking a shot at it so someone can tell me I'm wrong.:rolleyes:

The red comes from hematite which is an iron oxide as you stated. Hema means blood which is how hematite got it's name. Some forms of hematite are reddish in color and it will always streak red to dark reddish brown. The variations of color are due the fact that there are often other iron minerals in the same specimen like limonite, goethite, magnetite,etc.

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You are wrong Morlock. :rolleyes:

 

My opinion is that those crystals aren't "stained". That is a red mineral and not "stained" quartz. You can see quartz crystals but you can also see other short crystals with striated faces that don't look like quartz to me.

Exactly what it is I don't know. But I think you have a red mineral in there. Not just quartz stained with hematite. JMHO.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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I know what you mean but I've seen artificially coated gemstones that you would swear were colored all the way through. It's also possible that what started as a coating gradually permeated the whole specimen due  to certain conditions. I  think it's a hematite coating until someone proves me wrong.

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14 minutes ago, Morlock said:

I know what you mean but I've seen artificially coated gemstones that you would swear were colored all the way through. It's also possible that what started as a coating gradually permeated the whole specimen due  to certain conditions. I  think it's a hematite coating until someone proves me wrong.

What a good observation! And I agree!

I thought the same thing when the color seemed to be through the mineral. And then I noticed the crystal structure. And the crystals looked strange for quartz. You will notice those darker ones look short and flat rather tall, pointy and terminated. It looks like the perfect environment for tall quartz but you have those blocky little red crystals with a flat top haircut. 

So not knowing exactly what I was talking about I did the probablility guess. Two things made me think these might not be quartz. The shape of the crystal and the translucent color. So based on "two strikes for quartz" and a complete ignorance of the crystal structure of any red mineral I made my assertion. 

In other words I am rolling the bones.

So my bet is that those translucent red crystals with the short structure and striated planes are some other mineral than quartz. And until someone proves me wrong that is just how it is! :)

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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Morlock,

I think it is important for guys learning to identify minerals to say WHY they think a mineral is what they say it is. In that way other guys can learn some sort of methodology for identification.

If we just post some goofy mineral name and nothing else there is no attempt to learn nor spread knowledge. And very rarely do we ever know exactly who is right. It kinda becomes a vote. And that is a poor way to identify a mineral.

I noticed you told us WHY you thought this was iron stained quartz. You went out on a limb and discussed your methodology for arriving at your answer. And that is a very valuable gift to give. No matter what the mineral is others learned from your post. Thank you!

Bob

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I've been a rockhound for years now and I still don't know it all and never will. Especially trying to indentify a specimen just by photos alone. Nothibg like having  the specimen in  hand  so one  can do the various tests. So I've developed my own version of Occam's Razor for use on photos. Sometimes I'm right. Sometimes I'm wrong...

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I tend to not post my own thoughts in the beginning of the feed to keep from influencing other's opinions/thoughts. I too think this is hematite coating on broken pieces of quartz. I personally did not spot any other type of minerals yesterday except some pyrite.  

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3 hours ago, Morlock said:

Can't believe no one responded to this topic but taking a shot at it so someone can tell me I'm wrong.:rolleyes:

The red comes from hematite which is an iron oxide as you stated. Hema means blood which is how hematite got it's name. Some forms of hematite are reddish in color and it will always streak red to dark reddish brown. The variations of color are due the fact that there are often other iron minerals in the same specimen like limonite, goethite, magnetite,etc.

What about the darker stuff on here, from the same location

IMG_20180813_130818.jpg

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1 hour ago, Saul R W said:

Those achondroplasic Irish crystals with bad complexion don't appear to be quartz to me, and for the same reasons mentioned above.  The striations make me think a fibrous hematite.

I don't know anything about fibrous hematite, I will reasearch it

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If you've got a loupe, take a good close look at the dark red crystals. If you see what look like small beads of mercury, then you've got cinnabar. 

Edited by d_day
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9 hours ago, d_day said:

If you've got a loupe, take a good close look at the dark red crystals. If you see what look like small beads of mercury, then you've got cinnabar. 

I need to get one, I've had the need for magnification many times now 🤔

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I was thinking the smaller red crystals I see in the photo could be cinnabar.  It would be nice to know if that is found locally.  Also think Mercury in it's native form is very rare.  I've seen some very red rocks locally that I suspect could be cinnabar, and it is found locally, but I did not take a sample.

The Jewlers loupe with white Leds and a UV watermark LED that can pick ip fluorescence is on Ebay for about $5.  Its shipped from China, and can take a couple of weeks.

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From my limited understanding cinnabar is not formed at high temps or pressures. And that rock came from deep. Look at the quartz! Cinnabar is not associated with high temp metals at all and that ore is obviously formed at high pressures/temps. IMHO it could not be cinnabar. It would seem physically impossible for it to be. But I may be understanding it all wrong.

If it is cinnabar a cigarette lighter would tell the tale que no? The mercury should give up the Sulphur at about 650 degrees or so if I remember correctly.

Cinnabar is a product of volcanic vents and steam. It is found in sulphur springs and fumaroles. it forms crystal at or near ambient pressures. I don't think you are going to find it crystallized with minerals that solidify at many atmospheres and thousands of degrees higher temps. But I may be way out in left field with that thinking too.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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1 hour ago, Bedrock Bob said:

From my limited understanding cinnabar is not formed at high temps or pressures. And that rock came from deep. Look at the quartz! Cinnabar is not associated with high temp metals at all and that ore is obviously formed at high pressures/temps. IMHO it could not be cinnabar. It would seem physically impossible for it to be. But I may be understanding it all wrong.

If it is cinnabar a cigarette lighter would tell the tale que no? The mercury should give up the Sulphur at about 650 degrees or so if I remember correctly.

Cinnabar is a product of volcanic vents and steam. It is found in sulphur springs and fumaroles. it forms crystal at or near ambient pressures. I don't think you are going to find it crystallized with minerals that solidify at many atmospheres and thousands of degrees higher temps. But I may be way out in left field with that thinking too.

This published reference list many minerals cinnabar is associated with. Quartz is among them.

Edited to add: quartz is not actually listed here, but was listed on a site which linked to this document as reference. 

http://rruff.info/doclib/hom/cinnabar.pdf

Edited by d_day
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To be clear...

I was not saying cinnabar does not form with quartz. I was pointing out the well formed, large quartz crystals in the specimen indicated extreme pressure. And cinnabar does not form at extreme pressure. This type of rock would not be a classic environment for cinnabar. As a matter of fact it would exclude cinnabar from how I understand pressure and temperature working.

This, IMHO is a completely different type of rock than you would find cinnabar in for the reasons given. The description you posted supports that hypothesis completely... or at least that is the way I read it.

Can you offer any reasons that you think this might be cinnabar....other than it is a red mineral? While we are discussing it lets discuss our methodology for arriving at our conclusions. I certainly can't identify the mineral by deduction, but I can offer very good evidence why it is not cinnabar - Simply because the likelihood of being in a rock that formed at extreme pressure would be almost zero. And it is very clear by the well formed crystals this rock formed at high pressures/temperatures.

That is why I think it is not cinnabar. Can you tell us why you think it could be?

Wouldn't a simple heat test prove that this is not cinnabar? Or is what I understand about the mineral errant? Lets talk about it! 

Edited by Bedrock Bob
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The original pictures don't look anything like quartz to my eye. In fact they do resemble the most common crystal habit of cinnabar.

Here's the zoomed in version from the original post:

Original.jpg

I don't see any crystal angles that look like quartz in that picture.

Here's a bunch of pictures of cinnabar crystals. Similar growth habit to what I see in the original picture. Notice that many, if not most, of the cinnabar crystals are associated with quartz.

It's just pictures. The colors in some places are reminiscent of iron staining. Being old school I tend to look for crystal angles that fit rather than color. There are other minerals with similar crystallization and a lot more tests to conduct so I can't be sure.

Cinnabar is not an uncommon mineral. Although most of the bigger mercury ore deposits are along the California coast I've found cinnabar locally to Arizona. Heck that little mountain named after the Hopi woman in central Phoenix once had a mercury mine in the pass. An area near Prescott valley has tons of cinnabar.

 

 

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As is the custom the conversation seems to have shifted from mineral ID to trying to find something wrong with what I have said.

If you want to see terminated quartz crystals Clay all you need to do is look in the lower photo. And those red crystals do not look like quartz to me either. Please take a look at my first post. But to think that cinnabar formed in material like this is a stretch. 

No indications at all have been given that this is cinnabar other than the red color. It would be very easy to prove it is not cinnabar but we seem to be completely avoiding that in lieu of trying to find something wrong with my observations. We have all agreed that if this is cinnabar it would be very soft as well as form mercury with just a little heat. Rather than waste a bunch of calories trying to impeach my observations why don't we exert the same amount of effort in identifying the mineral?

Let's cut to the chase. It is obviously not cinnabar and anyone who has ever seen cinnabar knows it. Cinnabar just does not form in this environment for the reasons that I have given above. If we want to play games and try to find fault with my observations you can do that. But you just can't make mercury out of this specimen. No way, no how. A poke with a pin or a trip over the flame will prove it. The weight alone should tell the tale.

Edited by Bedrock Bob
Lets ID minerals instead of having a pissing contest.
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1) this was collected in  Northeast Pennsylvania

2) it was found among many other pieces of quartz

3) a majority of the crystals i found are iron stained, even coated (including hematite in this statement)

4)I know near nothing about cinnabar. I will have to test this one

 

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