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Hi all,

I have a question on the 5000 settings. I know we have all touched base on this question before but, it's kind of a different question I guess. I run my machine in Fine Gold 99 percent of the time. I've been playing with the Sharp and Normal settings without much success in there being a depth difference. I'm running the 15 inch EVO. When I do my tests burying nuggets, the only setting that really makes them nuggets POP out is Fine Gold. I have tested all settings and none of them seem to be better. Where i hunt, the ground is med to high mineralization, so Fine Gold runs the best. I guess I'm wondering, is there a setting you guys use that works better for you than Fine Gold? Any info is helpful. Thanks everyone. 

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Pretty much Ditto here...ive tried other settings and Fine gold seems to be the best. :idunno:

Tom H.

 

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Fine gold is indeed a great setting for ground 12" deep or less and will miss few targets and hears less hot rocks, but remember that it loses punch in deep ground and you will miss those big deep growlers. Sensitive Fine was developed for being able to hear all targets within it's range and really sing on small bits as well and not for hunting deep soils for that it is best to use General/Normal or deep depending on coil size...... Yes more noise and a lower gain is required to get stable, but you will go deeper......

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Ok Bill. It just seems when I try General/Normal I lose depth on the nuggets I bury. Maybe I just need to experiment with it more. Thank you for the tips Bill. 

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18 minutes ago, Bill Southern said:

What size coil do you use the most? and what soil depths on average?

 

I'm using the 15 inch EVO. The soil depth varies from 1 foot to 3 or 4 feet. The majority of the gold we find is specimen type gold, some with lots of gold and some with very little gold so i think thats why Fine Gold works so well there. Really no solid chunky stuff. Some but not too common.

Dan

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Sounds good Bill. I might try that and see if I can pick up a deep speci.

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On 7/21/2017 at 9:35 PM, nugget108 said:

Sounds good Bill. I might try that and see if I can pick up a deep speci.

Dan, I have to say you already dig some of the deepest holes I've ever seen from a non-7K unit, especially and exceptionally profound when what's in your area is taken into consideration ( fine speci hunka-chunka's rather than 'solid' nuggets.. ) I'm not sure how much deeper you can go regardless of set-up used.. The way I'm seeing it from here you're already pulling GB2 size Au at two feet, which is durn amazing unto itself.. Coil size change won't help, unless you're thinking slightly smaller..

I h8 to even think much less say this, but the only thing left beyond a possible timing tweak or two
might be needing to join Mike C out on the threshold's edge event horizon ( gasp! )

Swamp

Edited by Swampstomper Al
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Haha thanks Swamp. I guess I just wanted to try something else to recheck all the areas I have found gold in.

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2 hours ago, nugget108 said:

Haha thanks Swamp. I guess I just wanted to try something else to recheck all the areas I have found gold in.

Dan -- I'm posting bits and pieces of a couple discussions from over on Steve Herschbagh's site that should help you get to where you want to be settings-wise.. I don't think he would mind, since I'm attributing the information to him, and I'll also post links to both discussions as well..

---begin paste: 

Bingo. You do not lose depth when you ground balance on ground that requires ground balancing. You gain depth by eliminating the ground signal that is blocking the target signal. If you are detecting the ground, you can't detect the target.

...by employing any filtering system (discrimination, audio smoothing, ground balancing, etc.) where it is not required you are going to block possible responses that do not need to be blocked...

This is a big issue with Minelab GPX detectors. All the "Timings" are is different preset PI ground balancing schemes designed to deal with different ground types. The settings get progressively more aggressive to deal with more difficult ground and hot rocks if you encounter them. You should always run the least aggressive setting that gets the job done.

However, some people who do not know their machines and what exactly those settings are doing. Others like myself may know better but fall into bad habits. On the GPX 5000 the Fine Gold setting is a bit of a dream in many severe ground conditions. Bad ground and rocks just disappear! It works so well in bad ground it is tempting to just leave the machine in Fine Gold all the time.

However, Fine Gold is a very aggressive timing (filter) and I promise you without a doubt it will tune out and miss certain gold types. If you are running Fine Gold in ground where the Normal mode runs acceptably, you are missing gold. Period. My go to settings in mild Alaska ground were Sharp for large deep nuggets and Sensitive Extra for small gold.

Prospectors who can deal with some hot rocks and some ground noise, mainly by mental filtering through tonal differences, can run more aggressive timings like Normal in at least limited small areas that deserve the extra effort. They may dig more hot rocks, but the location if good will most likely also reveal more gold that was previously hidden by aggressive timings...

...I have a very hard time explaining to people that PI detectors in particular and ground balancing in general do not "add depth" or "go deeper".

Due to the point of diminishing returns the fact is most good high power metal detectors with an identical coil will find a metal object in an air test at roughly the same distance. This is the theoretical 100% max depth as revealed in air tests. It is the theoretical maximum distance into the ground that you might find the same item in the ground.

The problem is metal detectors also pick up both magnetic type soils and salt water. If the detector is seeing these things it blinds them to the metal object you wish to find. The classic example is car headlights in the dark. When the air is clear you can use high beams and see a great distance. However, if the air is full of heavy rain or snow, the headlights reflect off these undesired targets and blind the driver. The solution? Low beams. Less power focused more directly in front of the car removes the excess feedback from the rain/snow allowing you to see that deer standing in the road.

Ground balancing is a filter and not all that different that the way the discrimination system works. The ground signal or salt signal (or both) are identified and then tuned out. The ground effect is still there, but the detector subtracts it from the overall signal. The key word there is "subtracts". Ground balance methods work by subtracting part of the signal, and all subtractive methods create depth losses of some sort the closer any detected item gets to the "hole" created by subtracting the ground or salt signal. Signals are not perfect but spread over a small range, and so eliminating any signal usually means taking out a small range of signals.

If you have a trash target like a bottle cap and a high resolution detector that bottle cap will produce a VDI (Visual Display Indicator) number or target id number. If you try to disc just that one number, you will still usually get a broken signal, because the bottle cap actually produces a small range of numbers that dance around as you sweep the coil over it repeatedly. To reject the bottle cap completely means possibly having to eliminate a range of several VDI numbers. The catch? Any good items with similar numbers will also be rejected along with the bottle cap. Items that read just one or two VDI numbers in either direction may also see degraded results.

Ground balance works the same way. A window of response is rejected. Desired tems that fall into or near that same signal response area see reduced depths or are eliminated. Luckily most desired items do not fall into the same region as most ground signals. Eliminating slat signals has more direct impact because small gold signals and salt signals are identical.

The ground balance is a filter that is applied to the signal and depending on the efficiency of the method used, there is almost always some degradation of all target signals as compared to a metal detector running in a pure all metal mode with no ground balancing at all as measured in air tests. The White's TDI illustrates this perfectly. Turn of the ground balance and air test a nickel. No simply turn on the ground balance, and air test the same nickel. There will be an immediate loss of depth simply by engaging the ground balance filter. The amount of dpeth lost will vary depending where the ground balance control is set. The closer to the nickel reading the ground balance setting gets, the weaker the signal on the nickel itself. Normally a ground balance gets set to whatever the ground demands, but in low mineral ground there is a lot of leeway, and knowing which way to go with the ground balance control on the TDI can enhance certain signals and degrade others.

Sorry for the long winded explanation but this is hard stuff to get across in words...

--end paste.
http://www.detectorprospector.com/forum/topic/3904-atx-ground-balance/#comment-42509 

http://www.detectorprospector.com/forum/topic/3935-effects-of-ground-balance-on-target-depth/ 

Swamp

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3 hours ago, nugget108 said:

Dang Swamp. That's a lot of reading lol. Thanks buddy.

Dan

:4chsmu1:

Hope it helps.. Happened to catch Steve right as he was posting about this..
One of the machines mentioned was the 5K.. Didn't see your post until earlier today and it was kismet..

Knowing it isn't about gaining depth but rather losing less of what's already available is a game changer all by itself..

Swamp

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  • 2 weeks later...

Dan - I never got around to replying on this.  I did a lot of coil testing with a variety of different size nuggets, when I ran the 5000.  Test environment was pretty basic with just black sands to deal with.   I tested all of my coils.  What I found were that FINE gave slight advantage over SENS XTRA for gold 1.5g and less.  But from there, SENS XTRA rules out.  I never could run NORMAL.  I am a conservative operator so I tend to keep the sensitivity down so the machine operates on a quiet purr.

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Update:

I went out night before last with my son and tried the Normal setting. I messed with the gain and stab and actually got it running really smooth. There were a good 10 or 15 targets that i heard really well but the fine gold wouldnt even break the threshold. And surprisingly some very deep tiny stuff. Every time i found a target i would switch over and test both. The only thing i dont really like about it is the hotrocks. When your use to finding no hotrocks to finding several in 20 feet, it gets annoying. But hey you have to trade one good for a bad correct. Ill keep messing with it and get some time using Normal.

Thanks Bill and everyone else who chimed in with advise.

Dan

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It is all about tweaking each timings you are using and learn to do it over target in the ground, location also matters and tweaking to work in one area is seldom suitable for another. Having the ability to be able to set up to work almost anywhere is why I am willing to learn all I can about these detectors we use no matter what brand. My favorite method as already mentioned is to test different settings over a faint or very deep target before digging to see if there are better settings I could be using. It is important to do this over targets naturally buried by mother nature then planted myself to get the best settings. Or at least it works for me....

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Sound good Bill. I'm going to keep experimenting like you suggest. Ill get it all figured out. Just got so use to and comfortable using Fine Gold, I kinda forgot about the other 100 different ways the machine will work for me. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Dan

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14 minutes ago, nugget108 said:

Sound good Bill. I'm going to keep experimenting like you suggest. Ill get it all figured out. Just got so use to and comfortable using Fine Gold, I kinda forgot about the other 100 different ways the machine will work for me. Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Dan

The nicest thing I found about running the Evo (I'm using a 17x13 on my 5000) is that it's a bit quieter coil than what I was using previously, the Nugget Finder Advantage and as such, it being hotter as well, you can turn the gain down on your machine a bit, and it'll still pull in the gold without as much EMI.

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I found I can turn my Gain up quite a bit with the 15 EVO. Just depends on the time of day. But yeah it pulls the tiniest bits from down deep even with a lower Gain setting. I do love them new coils. 

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