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munroney

Meteorites causing fires

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chris1987-

I'm much too young for senility, and big of you to make fun of mental disabilities.

 

munroney-

I confused you for this chris1987 fellow here, my apologies again.

Many minerals that existing in space rocks also exist in Earth rocks, so by saying a meteorite contains hematite was not meaning it came from Earth.  I was commenting that I did not believe those were shock veins, but rather veins of a different nature.

Respect to me has 0 to do with how many trips you've been on or how many rocks you found, or anything material like that.  I respect good people, plain and simple.

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4 hours ago, Mikestang said:

 

Coincidence, yes, that is all.  Happens all the time, thousands of stories of people seeing a shooting star "fall just over there", but they're all all just mistaken eye witnesses.  Eye witness testimony is some of the least reliable.  And before you question that statement, do the research, it is well documented.

451* for dry wood, for grass, for paper even.  All the same.

No, it is not "literally impossible", please see the definition of literally.

 

(Continues)

Edited by Mikestang

 

Sorry Mike, here are two of several reports on the subject. I realize that some of the information referring to lower temp ignition of wood has to do with long exposure. Obviously that does not apply to the original post, but this does cast doubt on your temp claims.

engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-ignition-temperatures-d_171.html   Please note information regarding; Oakwood dry, paper, pinewood dry, and wood.

doctorfire.com/low_temp_wood1.pdf

 

Roger P.

 

 

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I'm only going to say this once to one and all, Stop the name calling, unnessacary vulgar words, and personal attacks, etc., and if you can't discuss this topic from here on out with point and counterpoint the entire topic will be removed from the forum!

Also stay on topic, I don't want to hear or read about what someone said or didn't say in another topic that isn't even on topic with this topic other than both topics have the word "meteorite" in them!

Skip

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The blue-white lights on the upper left of the pic are from a building or other man made structure. The zigzag light lines are identical to the zigzag light lines from the fire and are, therefore, the product of a giggly camera and are not real. There is no second fire. 

Rocks on ice normally tend to sink unless the ice is extremely cold, like Antarctica, or they are fairly small. There are two reasons for this. The high density of the rock compared to ice causes the rock to sink as ice is not a true solid, but viscous. Second, the low albedo of the dark rock absorbs more heat from the Sun making it warmer than the ice increasing it sink rate. Parts of a WWII airplane that crashed in Greenland sunk 87 feet deep before they dug it out over 70 years later. Suspend a string over an ice cube with weights and it will cut through the ice cube.

Ken Mitchell is an astronomy buff, and not an expert in the field of meteoritics. His statement is nothing more than speculation. 

Bollides reach dark flight at 5500 MPH about 40 to 25 miles high. In the process they ablate and the pieces slow substantially until they reach terminal velocity of about 250 to 150 MPH, depending on final mass. They will fall at the same rate as if dropping rocks from a Cessna airplane. They will dent asphalt, and could kill someone, but they do not leave craters unless over several tons in final mass. Meteorites do not start fires. There are no known examples over the last million years. (Avoid internet mythology, like the Chicago and Wisconsin fires.) Among the many reasons are that the surface temperature of the meteorite is chilled by the cold lower atmosphere and by the cold internal temperature of the rock. Meteorite don't even burn in flight. They heat up from ram pressure,not friction, as the nitrogen and oxygen molecules build up on their surface and not from friction.

The fire was already quite large when first noticed by the observers according to your report. If a fire has just started it would have taken some time for it to have burned so much for it to be noticed at such a vast distance from the observers. Therefore, the fire had been burning some time before the light in the sky was seen. The two are unrelated. 

Your hypothesis is false.

billpeters

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I found these 2 articles...not exactly sure of the writers credentials but what seems to come up time and time again is the lack of evidence and scientific research. 

As the observer who was watching the scene unfold, the fire most definitely was not there before the fireball. Everything was in clear view and there were no signs of a fire on that mountain. Yes I know it isn't the most still photo, but those 2 bright yellow blobs are not the result of shaky hands. If you follow the zig zags, they do not go from one blob to the next. This is not hear say from what I was told, or who sent me the pic. I took the pic, and my friend beside me was in shock seeing the "brightest shooting star of his life" that fell straight to that mountain. 

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20030422040609/http://www.home.earthlink.net/~machiz/FAQs/hot_meteorites.htm

And 

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/our-solar-system/75-our-solar-system/comets-meteors-and-asteroids/meteorites/314-are-meteorites-hot-or-cold-when-they-hit-earth-intermediate

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5 hours ago, Mikestang said:

And how often do you think that happens?  If your answer is anything other than "never" then you are delusional.  Just because something can happen doesn't mean it has or ever will.  You could win the lottery while getting struck by lightning in a shark attack, too, but probably not.

 Very rarely. But it could happen and probably has.  

Come out to 12 mi NNw of Rich Hill sometime and throw rocks around at night. About every other one will spark in the darkness if thrown at the plethora of boulders about . 

 

Never say never:4chsmu1:

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Omg, I can't believe I just read all that! Munroney was looking to start an argument from the ending of his first post! Mike you tried but some people.....well I'll stop there since I'm not really into posting stuff. 

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I count 15 separate zigzags, two blue-white zigzags from the man-made lights at the upper left and at least 13 identical zigzags from different bright parts of the fire .All prove a shaky camera. The fire is large and covers a large area proving that the fire has already been burning for some time. The fact that you didn't notice the fire until after you saw the falling light proves no correlation.

There is no known verifiable example of any meteorite being seen lit up going all the way to the ground. Nor is it likely. The physics do not permit it. The massive meteorite Chelyabinsk in Russia on Feb 15, 2013 was not physically capable of being lit up all the way to the ground.

Your hypothesis is blatantly false.

billpeters

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8 hours ago, Mikestang said:

You can want until you are blue in the face, but that isn't how science works.  With no evidence, your theory must be abandoned and an alternative sought.

 

Mike,

I know the alternate theory:

I've been out at night (sometimes drinking) trying to take a picture and hold a camera steady.  It's not possible or improbable.  When I try to remember the event later ... that shakes too.

I did see a meteor once at dusk when I was living on Maui  (I hadn't started drinking that day ... yet.) and I swear it was burning and hit the ocean.  I was waiting for the impact wave. :)  (It probably missed the earth.)

Now I get more excited when I see them go dark because I know they are closer (if bigger than a streak).

When was the last 'space junk' fire?

Mitchel

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Yes, but what about my question...what is the little vial doing in the Pic...??????????????????????

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8 hours ago, billpeters said:

 

There is no known verifiable example of any meteorite being seen lit up going all the way to the ground. Nor is it likely. The physics do not permit it. The massive meteorite Chelyabinsk in Russia on Feb 15, 2013 was not physically capable of being lit up all the way to the ground.

Your hypothesis is blatantly false.

billpeters

Exactly my point...just because there's been no verifiable example shouldn't make this theory "blatantly false"...it is not "likely" but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. You are comparing the one in Russia which had a very shallow trajectory to this one which had a very steep trajectory. Did you read those articles I posted? Talking about many different factors that play an important roll in how cold/warm/hot the meteorites lands. It is absurd to take 1 example of a meteorite impact and base all science off of that. Jeeze, I thought there would be someone out there who realizes that meteoritrs come in all different sizes, shapes, types, trajectories, and so on...we couldn't have POSSIBLY learned everything there is about meteorites and just because it hasn't been documented doesn't mean it isn't possible ?

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16 hours ago, Mikestang said:

You can want until you are blue in the face, but that isn't how science works.  With no evidence, your theory must be abandoned and an alternative sought.

 

Mike,

I know the alternate theory:

I've been out at night (sometimes drinking) trying to take a picture and hold a camera steady.  It's not possible or improbable.  When I try to remember the event later ... that shakes too.

I did see a meteor once at dusk when I was living on Maui  (I hadn't started drinking that day ... yet.) and I swear it was burning and hit the ocean.  I was waiting for the impact wave. :)  (It probably missed the earth.)

Now I get more excited when I see them go dark because I know they are closer (if bigger than a streak).

When was the last 'space junk' fire?

Mitchel

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57 minutes ago, fredmason said:

Yes, but what about my question...what is the little vial doing in the Pic...??????????????????????

Im guessing you are talking about the cursor from my computer? The pic is actually a pic from my phone taken from a pic that is on my computer. I don't have wifi to log in and post on my computer right now so this was the next best option. The pic is in an edit program so I could change the brightness to see the contours of the mountain so I could try to line it up with google earth and spot any discrepancies that may appear. There is a tower on top of the mountain from what I can see (the man made light in the pic), but other than that, there is no obvious signs of what would have been a controlled fire for whatever reason. The closest house is miles away and the pitch of the mountain is certain unfavourable for some random person to play around with matches up there ?

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Did you happen to look up the date on the meteorite site to see if anyone posted an observation? What was the date and time of the event? This would be facts to confirm what you saw. Good place to start. With enough views the direction and speed of the object can be determined. With the Sutter's Mill Meteorite that came down over our heads one morning, the flight direction, speed and approximate location of the falls were determined.

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15 minutes ago, munroney said:

Exactly my point...just because there's been no verifiable example shouldn't make this theory "blatantly false"...it is not "likely" but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. You are comparing the one in Russia which had a very shallow trajectory to this one which had a very steep trajectory. Did you read those articles I posted? Talking about many different factors that play an important roll in how cold/warm/hot the meteorites lands. It is absurd to take 1 example of a meteorite impact and base all science off of that. Jeeze, I thought there would be someone out there who realizes that meteoritrs come in all different sizes, shapes, types, trajectories, and so on...we couldn't have POSSIBLY learned everything there is about meteorites and just because it hasn't been documented doesn't mean it isn't possible ?

You have to prove a new theory.  It is not up to us to take your word for it or even some pictures that WE don't consider anything like proof.  It is like saying you found a new planet,  a new species, human spontaneous combustion or any number of other ideas.

Where's the proof?  

You will then get the recognition you are seeking from US.  (We aren't much interested in one-offs.)

Even if you are right ... next topic because of the style in which you present.

Mitchel

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4 minutes ago, mn90403 said:

Mike,

I know the alternate theory:

I've been out at night (sometimes drinking) trying to take a picture and hold a camera steady.  It's not possible or improbable.  When I try to remember the event later ... that shakes too.

I did see a meteor once at dusk when I was living on Maui  (I hadn't started drinking that day ... yet.) 

When was the last 'space junk' fire?

Mitchel

No, I was not drinking at the time. The pic was taken with 200x zoom at night. For how much zoom the pic had, and how little light there was, it's actually pretty impressive how little shake it turned out ?

And again, exactly my point. Everyone seems to think that because it hasn't yet been reported, it's impossible. I bet if you told someone it's possible to cure cancer 50 years ago, they would call you an idiot ?

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19 minutes ago, GeoJack said:

Did you happen to look up the date on the meteorite site to see if anyone posted an observation? What was the date and time of the event? This would be facts to confirm what you saw. Good place to start. With enough views the direction and speed of the object can be determined. With the Sutter's Mill Meteorite that came down over our heads one morning, the flight direction, speed and approximate location of the falls were determined.

Because of the secluded locality, I doubt that many people witnessed it, and if someone were to witness it, given that I was in an extremely poor country, they don't have the time to pursue it. Wifi was non existent, therefore any research or means of posting a bulliten was impossible.  It is only first worlders that have the time, money, knowledge (about meteorites), and buyers at our front door step. I'm sure that whoever witnessed it was more focused on getting up early the next day and working 12 hours just so they could feed themselves 

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Exactly where did this occur if I might ask?

 

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well, thank you for that answer...

since you are convinced this occurrence is possible why don't you go for it...adventure and possible fame awaits...

You would not be the first to prove the impossible is possible.

now I have much more interesting things to consider...bye

fred

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Study quantum physics, anything is possible.  Literally, anything is possible.  But what is it's probability?

Quote

 

The steps of the scientific method are to:

  • Ask a Question
  • Do Background Research
  • Construct a Hypothesis
  • Test Your Hypothesis by Doing an Experiment
  • Analyze Your Data and Draw a Conclusion
  • Communicate Your Results

 

 

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You have offered evidence through two proofs that a meteorite did not land anywhere near that mountain. There was no sonic boom heard, verifying that the object was at least dozens of miles away. We recently had a recovered meteorite fall 120 miles east of Phoenix in which the sonic boom was heard loudly by thousands of people across that area over 100 miles away, even perpendicular to the meteorite fall trajectory. If it came down at a steep angle, as you state, it would not be possible for it to be near you without you hearing a sonic boom.

Second, you reported that it was lit all the way to the mountain horizon. Dark flight occurs at 25+ miles high, assuming a 20* slope to the mountain ridge would put this meteorite over 100 miles away when it disappeared behind the mountain. I saw a spectacular meteorite fall from the eastern suburbs of Phoenix, AZ which landed in San Diego County, CA over 300 miles away. Another I observed from southern AZ landed near the Utah border north of the Grand Canyon also over 300 miles away. It is impossible to judge distance of a meteor without triangulation from remote observers. When you first saw the light it would have been about 65 miles high and visible for over 250 miles in every direction. Go to www.amsmeteors.org and look at the trajectory plot charts of any of the reports having 10 or more observers.

Your conclusions do not match, and actually counter, the evidence you have have given.

billpeters

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3 hours ago, billpeters said:

 

Second, you reported that it was lit all the way to the mountain horizon. 

 

Not all the way. I did say how there was dark flight and how it was lit up until "near" the mountain.. From high how, I don't know. It could have been 20miles, but still closer than any meteor my friend has ever seen (and he's always looking up) it wasn't his first shooting star, and his reaction to it was completely shocked...even more shocked when the fire started. There is no doubt from him, and for that reason, I'm in. We have discussed this event many times given the feedback and evidence there is, and nothing will change his mind. Hes not financially stable to do such an expedition, but he's more than enthusastic to "test the hypothesis and do an experiment"..the probability is low, but if there's a 1% chance of finding a meteorite there, that's 1/2% more than what I need ? (When it comes to gambling, I tend to go all in) haha

By the way, the location is in the Philippines. One red flag that I have acknowledged was the fact that no sonic booms were heard. It's maybe possible the sound was muffled into all the beachfront bars that were blasting their music..and like I said about other witnesses or testimonies, we were pretty much surrounded by water in every direction..and even if someone had seen it, well, it took me 6 years to even mention it on some forum, let alone a meteorite database or wherever I would do such a thing. I don't even know where I would go abouts reporting it, nevermind some Philippino who doesn't even have the equipment to do so. 

Regardless, I will return to analyze my data and draw a conclusion..and if all else fails, i will at least soak up some sun and do some snorkelling. Nice place..always wanted to go back ?

Thanks everyone for your feedback. I will post the results in November when I return ?

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On July 19, 2016 at 10:11 AM, GeoJack said:

Exactly where did this occur if I might ask?

 

Philippines

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Meteor Report from the Philippines 892a – 2010

2010-12-14 23:00 PST - 2010-12-15 04:00 UT - Duration ≈3s

OBSERVER

Name

Carmen

Exp.

1/5

Remarks

This Fireball was so amazing and it’s really glowing in the dark of the sky. I think many fireball falls here in the Philippines because some came out ahead of my back so you can noticed that someone on your left shoulder appeared very fast because I was in the street standing by and while walking tried to see the stars but this was really surprised to my eyes. Other stars are dropping and fast forwarding everywhere even though the sky is a bit cloudy. Lots of stars appeared in the sky everywhere. They also appeared to be a jack n\' stone when they flew.

 

LOCATION

Address

Pasay (PH)

Latitude

42° 47' 48.94'' N (42.796929°)

Longitude

77° 48' 59.99'' W (-77.816665°)

DIRECTION

Moving direction

From left to right

Descent Angle

90°

 

MOVING

Facing azimuth

180°

First azimuth

163°

First elevation

45°

Last azimuth

163°

Last elevation

45°

 

BRIGHTNESS AND COLOR

Magnitude

1

Color

Head is yellow blue-yellow

 

CONCURRENT SOUND

Observation

No

 

DELAYED SOUND

Observation

No

Remarks

I'm standing for a long period when this fireball appeared the same as above drawing and a bit far from the place where I stand but the appearance is almost the same and the actual fireball really the same. But I did not hear the sound it moves kind of slowly and its really very huge. The head is that when you light a candle or match or lighter is the same appearance. The tail is really very long like a broom stick.

 

PERSISTENT TRAIN

Observation

Yes

Duration

3s

Length

-1°

Remarks

Glowing train and it has yellow with white color its very slow while flying going to south metro manila. Its really very long train.

 

TERMINAL FLASH

Observation

Yes

Remarks

Similar to the above drawing of American Meteor Society its almost the same.

 

FRAGMENTATION

Observation

Yes

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