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Whats up with that "Claim"?


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Yeah I'm mostly interested in Maricopa and Yavapai counties. Clay's website is really great. I just need to absorb all of the information so that I can use it better. I have also donated for the closed claims list which might also point to good ground. Do any of the online sites actually show claim location maps? Seems like they just give rough estimates but you don't really know the "shape" of the claim until you get the boots on the ground. I really wish we'd move into the 21st century and use GPS coordinates :)

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Do any of the online sites actually show claim location maps?

Don't trust those programs, maybe clay's "Footprint", but I have never used it so I dont know.

But thats why I said to look at the "Notice of Mining Location" at the recorders office or assessors website, the applicant has to draw on the section map for the paperwork the claim shape and boundaries. I then make my own map of active claims from these location notices, then double check in the field.

Through the Yavapai assessors website you can actually look at the real Location Notice filed by the applicant.

Here is an example, this is a Lode claim filed in Yavapai county Section 29, Township 10N, Range 02E, I just pulled it from the assessors website and next to it is a picture of the actual section using satellite imagery and the section overlay.

post-27032-0-00484100-1450904733_thumb.jpost-27032-0-67141600-1450905248_thumb.j

This satelittle imagery and overlay is also available on the assessors website so you can see exactly where this claim is on the surface of the earth within that section compared to what was filed by the applicant. Easy peesy lemon squeezey! I can always get it very close to scale and have never not found a claim I am looking for.

We dont need no stinkin GPS! Just make your own maps, my GPS is a $300 paperweight now covered in dust.

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Yeah I'm mostly interested in Maricopa and Yavapai counties.

Both those counties have free online downloads of mining claim location notices. Very convenient and the price is right. You can access the County Documents search and download directly from the Land Matters Claims Maps "County Recorders" map layer.

Do any of the online sites actually show claim location maps? Seems like they just give rough estimates but you don't really know the "shape" of the claim until you get the boots on the ground.

None of the online sites or Google Earth programs show where the claims are actually located. Both the paid and free versions just use the BLM database download to locate claims to the quarter section. Land Matters is no exception.

There are a bunch of problems with that system. The biggest is that the BLM files lag behind by anywhere from 3 weeks up to 8 or 12 months. Locations to the quarter section are very inaccurate and the people presenting the online maps have to keep their database current.

At present Land Matters keeps the most current databases and don't charge anything which is why they are serving upwards of a thousand maps an hour. That in itself is nowhere near good enough for prospecting but it does make the rest of the research easier.

The information mapped from the BLM does have a very valuable place in your research. County Records aren't available to show directly on a map and there is no way to tell from County Records if a mining claim is currently active. The BLM will show when a claim is no longer active and you can get a quick look at the size of the claim, the filing history and the owners.

You really need both the BLM files and the County Records to complete your claims status research. By law you can't have one without the other for valid claims. You need to check both.

I really wish we'd move into the 21st century and use GPS coordinates :)

What you call "GPS coordinates" have been around since the 2nd century B.C. - you aren't moving into the "21st Century" when you use Latitude and Longitude you are moving into the past. Latitude is a measurement of angle and Longitude is a measurement of time. Two very different calculations are required to determine any given location.

The Public Land Survey System (PLSS) is used to locate claims and legally describe the location of land in the United States. It has been around since just before the Constitution (Northwest Ordinance 1785) and is very modern compared to Lat/Lon measurement. The PLSS is not a measurement but an actual on the ground survey with physical pins mounted in the earth.

The Lat/Lon system is inherently inaccurate. It's a good way to describe a single point on the earth but the actual numbers derived vary depending on which reference system is used. UTM is better in some respects because it's based on theoretical grid lines on the earth much like the physical points in the PLSS.

UTM is not nearly as accurate as the PLSS because it uses extreme distances from it's reference points. (56 miles at the equator) It is a flat representation of a round earth so it's always has a variance from the real world.

UTM and Lat/Lon both depend on their datum to be accurate. Different datum and projections produce wildly different levels of accuracy. Wrong datum and you could easily be 600 foot off on the UTM system. The PLSS doesn't depend on datums or projections because it's an actual physical high resolution reference system.

In a fully surveyed PLSS grid you are never more than about 3,000 feet from a physical reference point. In UTM you can be up to 295680 feet from a theoretical reference point and with GPS you are always more than 66264000 feet from your nearest reference point. I'll let you figure out which has the potential to be the most accurate.

  • Latitude/Longitude is great because a single person with the knowledge and a few very simple tools can figure out where they are on the earth.
  • UTM is great for military and government planning because it works on the assumption that the earth is a flat plane consisting of roughly equal size rectangles.
  • The PLSS is really good at locating small parcels of land in relation to one another.

All three of those systems rely on the skills of those who are using them. You can develop the skills you need and learn the most accurate reliable methods to get you where you want to go. But which system should you use?

Since the PLSS exists on the ground, can be used by anyone, is particularly suited to describing land and is required by law when making a mining claim it's the obvious choice for prospectors. Use the GPS if you want but in the end you will be using Legal Land Descriptions from the PLSS to locate your own claim or to determine where an already existing claim is located.

Land Matters offers the PLSS grid on their mining claims maps as well as the mapping of Land Management. Although prospectors like the idea of twice monthly claims updates very few realize that the Land Manager and PLSS map layers change and are updated regularly too. In fact Land Matters is the only online mapping system that is using the new CadNSDI PLSS surveys as they are being updated as well as twice monthly claims updates.

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:thumbsupanim Again, great detail for those of us just getting into this level of detail. I think most new prospectors start out only looking at the claims they have access to, as there is so much to learn as a beginner.

As for my comment on using GPS coordinates and moving to the 21st century, I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. Everyone knows Lat. and Long. came first, and I have had much use with PLSS through my work experience, but when it comes to using current technological advances in electronic gps "equipment" to get you in an area, "in my opinion" being able to go straight to these gps coordinates is very convenient. GPS can very well get as accurate for land surveyors as PLSS, but I agree that this level of GPS equipment would be overkill. People need a way of recording claims without expensive devices. PLSS may be really accurate on the section lines, but when you are inside of these sections quarters and claims follow various orientations, following the shapes of ravines ... etc., it really is not well suited for recording (in my opinion). It only gets you close. You must have a map. But if you can give me 4 points (even if it is +/-50 feet) this is much more useable when I do not have a map from the county recorder's office. Again, just expressing my opinion.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just wandering how load claims differ from the placer claims in terms of recording the claim. For example, if there is a load claim, can I detect placer claims in the vicinity? If you look in the mylandmatters.org it may have 12 load claims and 1 placer claim. Maricopa county recorder has most of these placer maps on line and you can search it by the year and book number. But the load claims do not seem to have much detail for looking up the location. No notice of locaiton maps ... etc. Maybe I'm not looking in the right area or doing the right search.

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If your asking its okay to placer on a lode claim thats not yours or vice versa I am not touching that with a 10' stick. To be safe I stay off of Lode claims and placer claims no matter what type of mining I am doing. There has been many conversation on other threads about filing a placer claim over a lode claim so you might be able to search for your answer if need be.

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GPS using Lat/Long or UTM is a good method to find the PLSS corners. Just scale them off a USGS quad or from goggle earth, etc.

Just remember that many of those corners may not be at the location you are looking. Many of the corners were basically located with a "compass and chain". Being a Land Surveyor in the West for the past 40 years, I've found corners up to 1/2 out of position. Many, many, several hundreds of feet out of position from where they plot on a USGS quad.

Many, if not most of the existing corners have been located by modern GPS method by the different Govt. agencies. Those co-ords should be available if searched for.

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Sorry for the confusion and my question is probably a dumb one. Placers claims have maps. I was wondering if load claims did as well? If so, they seem to be harder to find through online recording offices.

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Andyy,

Just my opinion, but here goes...

I don't think you will find such maps, as they are inherently different than placer claims. Placer claims, being a plot on top of the ground, and visible, are easy to map.

Lode claims, not visible, being underground, cannot be mapped like placer claims. I doubt that anyone would keep a data base of lode claims as with every claim/workings, being different than the next, there are too many variables to map and keep track of.

Every mine probably has records and mapped records of developed mines, but, in my opinion, most, if not all of those types of archived records are probably held by the mine owners, corporations, companies, etc., for their own use and not for public perusal.

Hope this helps. Again, just my opinion.

Greg

Edited by AuTSaurus
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Lode claim locations always have maps Andy. Other than the size and description they are recorded at the County Recorders office just like placer claims.

Lode claims are a maximum 600 feet X 1,500 feet (20.66 acres).

Lode claims are located by Metes and Bounds (direction and distance).

Lode claims are oriented along the direction of the strike and the center line at each end is staked as well as the corners and the discovery point.

Placer claims are a maximum 160 acres.

Placer claims are usually located by aliquot part.

Placer claims are aligned with the PLSS portions and staked at each corner and the monument post.

If you are looking for Location Notices in Maricopa, Yavapai or LaPaz counties all their County Recorders have free online access to complete downloadable copies of the actual Location Notice recordings - including the maps, amendments, quit claims and annual recordings.

For the legal differences between Lode and Placer claims read the 1872 Mining Act. For State laws governing claim locations read Title 27 of Arizona Revised Statutes Mining Rights in Land.

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Just remember that many of those corners may not be at the location you are looking. Many of the corners were basically located with a "compass and chain". Being a Land Surveyor in the West for the past 40 years, I've found corners up to 1/2 out of position. Many, many, several hundreds of feet out of position from where they plot on a USGS quad.

Many, if not most of the existing corners have been located by modern GPS method by the different Govt. agencies. Those co-ords should be available if searched for.

Good advice LipCa. Those relocated corners now form the CadNSDI which is the replacement for the old PLSS files. The PLSS was deprecated in December 2009.

Sadly the online mapping sites all use the old PLSS files. :grr01:

At Land Matters we put in quite a bit of time and effort to update our PLSS mapping to the new CadNSDI. As far as I know we are the only web map that offers the more accurate CadNSDI. Check out the differences laid over the topo base layer and you will see that what LipCa is saying about accuracy. Big difference.

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Got it, Clay. Thank you for the details. Looks like I just need to play with the Maricopa site a little more to find these. I'm pretty good now with the placer claims. Mylandmatters gives "County Book and Page" which is a good search for placer docs (notice of mining location) on the Maricopa site. I have never found this number filled in under the mylandmatters for load claims, though. Will keep working it.

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Got it, Clay. Thank you for the details. Looks like I just need to play with the Maricopa site a little more to find these. I'm pretty good now with the placer claims. Mylandmatters gives "County Book and Page" which is a good search for placer docs (notice of mining location) on the Maricopa site. I have never found this number filled in under the mylandmatters for load claims, though. Will keep working it.

Land Matters does show County Book and Page for all the claims that the BLM entered the data for. There are lode claims in those Book and Page lists too.

The Yavapai County Recorder allows you to search by Township Range and Section. That save a bunch of time and also shows you new claims as they are Recorded (usually within a week or so). The BLM often doesn't update new claims for weeks or months so the Recorder can be a real time saver.

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Plenty of load claims on the Yavapai county recorder site. I Usually see them grouped together named something like Yavapai 1 through Yavapai 20, so when you find the claim for one set, you find them all. To me, they look like rectangles (600 X 1500) and are rarely perfectly North South / East West like placer claims are. Whoever files these lodes, seems to file many sets of lode claims at once covering a large area. So if you're at the Yavapai site and open docs and see the rectangle at an odd angle, its probably a lode claim.

I second what clay says about the Yavapai site. It's organized to search for claims very well. The only way I've been able to narrow filings in Maricopa down is to get familiar with an area, and then go back and search for new filings. You get all the new filings, but they are spread throughout the county, so you need to go in each document to see where it is.

Took me 8 months to realize how to stake a claim.

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Thanks. I didn't check for lode claims in Yavapai as I spend most of my time looking around Maricopa. Yavapai county recorder website is definitely more user friendly.

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Hey chriski, I recently realized that on the maricopa site the easiest way to search is to put the claim name in the business category. You can get all the claim names from lr2000 for the area of interest then map em one at a time by name. It's not perfect but at least you can narrow down the area you're researching.

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Plenty of load claims on the Yavapai county recorder site. I Usually see them grouped together named something like Yavapai 1 through Yavapai 20, so when you find the claim for one set, you find them all. To me, they look like rectangles (600 X 1500) and are rarely perfectly North South / East West like placer claims are. Whoever files these lodes, seems to file many sets of lode claims at once covering a large area. So if you're at the Yavapai site and open docs and see the rectangle at an odd angle, its probably a lode claim.

I second what clay says about the Yavapai site. It's organized to search for claims very well. The only way I've been able to narrow filings in Maricopa down is to get familiar with an area, and then go back and search for new filings. You get all the new filings, but they are spread throughout the county, so you need to go in each document to see where it is.

Took me 8 months to realize how to stake a claim.

The example I gave earlier is a lode claim.

There seems to be twice as many or more lode claims filed everywhere than compared to placers. Do your research before moving on with those huge groups of Lode claims, most of the ones I follow through on are no longer active, or they just filed them with the county recorder and not with the BLM. They are just trying to keep people away or sell mineral rights to land they will never mine.

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Lode claim locations...

Clay -- Assuming someone stakes a lode claim with every intention of working it, wouldn't he also stake a tunnel claim at the same time..? And with the exception of some special situation, wouldn't he also stake the tunnel claim perpendicular to and through the center of the lode claim in order to take maximum advantage of possible extralateral rights for a single lode claim staking..?
My reasoning behind asking about staking a tunnel at the same time is: isn't it possible to have all land around one's lode claim claimed away to the point the only place left for staking a tunnel would be 'on top' of the lode claim..?
Also, is "law of the apex" considered an 'extention' of extra lateral rights or does it stand on its own..?
Thanks,
Swamp
PS: I think this is what Andyy was meaning when he was wondering about staking a placer claim 'over top of' a lode claim.. To me, at least, this question arises: If I stake a placer claim beginning just outside an edge boundary of a lode claim, then at a later time the holder of the lode claim becomes able to claim extra lateral rights, who's claim is it..? Or does the extra lateral possibility make near-adjoining land out-of-bounds claim-wise from the get-go..? The latter doesn't sound exactly fair.. At the same time it doesn't sound fair to kick a placer claim holder off his claim merely because the lode claim supercedes the placer claim.. Or am I confusing a tunnel right with a lode right in this instance..?
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The answers to your questions are more about understanding the difference between the different types of claims than any specifics. Once you understand what each claim is for the answers to your questions will become more obvious.

Lode claims are made for a discovery of mineral in place. By in place we mean still a part of the rock body in which it was formed. That's why lodes are called hard rock mines. It's necessary to remove the solid rock that forms the earth to remove the valuable minerals that are part of that rock.

Placer claims, on the other hand, are made for a discovery of valuable minerals in unconsolidated float or gravels. It is only necessary to remove the more valuable gravels from the less valuable gravels to accomplish mining of the valuable minerals.

Both of these types of claims have the rights to the valuable minerals found in the unconsolidated surface within the bounds of the claim but only a lode claim has the right to the valuable minerals found still contained within the consolidated rock body.

A placer claimant who discovers a lode deposit within his placer claim is required to make a separate lode claim if they wish to own the right to the lode minerals. A lode claimaint already owns all the minerals within the bounds of their claim and can not make a placer claim over their lode claim.

A lode claim owns all the valuable mineral that go to depth under their strike once the apex is discovered. These rights are only extralateral to the long sides of the claim and only if the the end lines are parallel. That simple rule has spawned more mining cases than all other mining situations combined.

Tunnel site claims are an entirely different beast. Tunnels are up to 3,000 feet long and are a single line that's only as wide as the tunnel that is dug. There are no mineral rights that come with a tunnel claim because a tunnel is an exploration right - not a mineral right. If valuable minerals are discovered while digging a tunnel those minerals must be claimed by a regular lode or placer claim before the tunneler has a right to the minerals. Claims can not be made from a tunnel discovery that intersects with another claim.

Millsite claims are non mineral and by law can not be made on valuable mineral land. Millsite claims are limited to 5 acres in size. Millsite claims can only be used for the processing and stockpiling of mined minerals.

Four types of claims and only two of them involve claiming the right to discovered minerals. Those two mineral claim types are for very different types of mineral deposits.

All of these definitions and distinctions, and more, are found in the 1872 Mining Act that governs the right to claim and own valuable mineral deposits on the public lands.

So the answer is:

No the lode claim does not have extralateral rights to adjacent placer deposits and a tunnel site claim gives no right to undiscovered valuable minerals no matter which direction it runs in relation to existing claims.

Hope that helps Al.

Barry

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Hope that helps...

They were especially helpful, particularly with now correctly understanding tunnel claim

definition and rights/responsibilities..

Thanks once again clay, from myself as well as others I'm sure..!

Swamp

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Anybody else having problems running reports lately on the LR2000? I get forwarded to an oracle management page when I go to run the report. I've never seen this before. Thanks.

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Been like that most of the weekend for me. Thanks for confirmation that it's not just my computer. darn China ...

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The problem is on the BLM site not your computer.

The BLM LR2000 servers are not very reliable. The last few months have been particularly bad. Our account contact with the BLM in Denver (where their servers are located) admits that the problems have been bad lately so they are aware of the problem.

It's obviously a bigger problem than just the LR2000. The bi monthly extract from the main BLM database servers was several days late this month due to problems with that server too.

The current failure may last awhile. The sign in page is just one of the many failure modes the server goes into but this one in particular seems to take longer to fix. All we can do is try again occasionally and hope they get their problems resolved soon.

This is a massive database and a very important system for the government. They will eventually get things worked out. We have no choice but to wait until they do.

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