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homefire

Another thing they can ban . Killer Bullets!

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He can play down real combat experience all he wants, but he will never ever know what it is like or the discipline it puts in you. Ask experienced combat soldiers what the most exciting thing that ever happened to them was. Most if they are honest will say is absolute victory in a firefight. This just may be the only thing a self proclaimed expert on everything just knows nothing about at all. Slapping cows around or shooting bluebirds just won't cut it for experience in life threatening situations.

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Most experienced combat soldiers I know would rather not talk about it..They do their damndest to forget. A police Captain said that when they had a meeting after a shooting that the guys actually got very excited discussing how things went down !!!

Give me a break these are human lives that are being discussed. I have been around some in my years and the only time I have found I actually wanted a firearm with me is in snake country

How many of you have actually shot another human ?

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The citizens of this country hold the American military veteran in the highest esteem,

with an abundance of good reasons.

No one can fully appreciate what being shot at is like unless you have lived through it.

It defies the comprehension of most people - which is good.

But it doesn't make any sense to belittle people who have not been in combat - for any reason.

Happily most people who develop excellent discipline do not need "real combat experience" to acquire it.

In addition most people are able to have valid peak experiences that are not the result of "a victory in a firefight."

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Combat experience is quite irrelevant to what kind of ammo you should be shooting. A bullet performs exactly the same no matter who pulls the trigger. A miss is a miss no matter who pulls the trigger. A detonating bullet does not make a miss more lethal nor does it make up for experience in a self defense situation.

It is obvious that combat experience does not teach ballistics. No amount of combat experience can make a ligght bullet as lethal as a heavy one nor control schrapnel after you pull the trigger. A hideous inoperable wound is not an immediate benefit in a self defense situation. Knock down power is.

If a fellow does not understand ballistics and believes these rounds are better because they claim combat experience then tell us WHY. Anyone can say "you are wrong" and offer no reason. I have offered very good logic to support why these bullets are inferior and no one has addressed this at all. Instead it has become a pissing match over who has more combat experience. Which is obviously irrelevant to the way a bullet performs.

You can plainly see by the silicone block what happens to these bullets. For many years they have been trying to KEEP BULLETS FROM DOING THIS TO RETAIN KILLING POWER. For the same reason ddimes make shcitty projectiles. For the same reason Nosler and Barnes have the most lethal bullet. For the same reason bucksot is more lethal than birdshot. For the ssame reason a hunting bullet is more lethal than a varmint bullet.

The argument is childish. The "combat veterans" obviously know little about ballistics and want to argue even if they are obviously wrong. And they are not able to explain why a light fragmenting bullet could carry the shock and mass needed to be as lethal as a hunting bullet...because it isn't. The whole point is to be viewed by the group as "right" even when they are obviously not.

It is a show. A parade. If anyone believes the line that a "combat veteran" says these bullets are better for any purpose they are being misled.

Lots of guys here know EXACTLY what makes a bullet kill. The "combat veterans" aren't fooling the gun guys on this forum...Only the ones that doont know schitt about bullets. And possibly themselves.

I invite anyone to read up on bullet performance and know what makes bullets work. Then. decide for yourselves. Weigh the risks of hitting a. member of your family or a bystander with scrapnel if you had to use one. Weigh the possibility that such an extremely light projectile will perform completely different from anything you practice with and may behave unexpectedly in chaotic situations. And if you care about yourself and your family stay completely away from men who are obsessed with killing and feel "less effective" if they aren't shooting a gimmick projectile that looks like a crocodiles maw.

The lethality of a weapon or the skill of the shooter nor the graveness of the injury has any bearing on the effectiveness of a firearm for self defense. A .22 that remains in its holster is much more effective thaan a full clip from an AK with the right nut behind the trigger.

Self defense is a totally different animal than combat regardless of what Steve thinks and anyone that has any training knows the difference. Combat is offensive and strategic. Self defence is DEFENSE and in reaction to a physical threat. There are very few commonalities between soldiering and combat and carrying and using a gun for self defense. Both in your reason for carrying and using a. gun in defense as well as the expected outcome.

My daughter in law is a gorgeous school teacher. She has been trained to shoot and she gets constant practice. She is not in combat. She uses a weapon for self defense. We discussed these bullets and I showed her the video. I asked her if she wanted to carry these in her handgun. Her immediate reaction was "No! What if I had to defend my classroom or my husband?" She realized right away that no one down range would be safe with all that shitt flying around and bouncing off stuff. She has never been in combat but even she "got it" right away.

I guess it depends on what you are thinking when you load your gun . Her thoughts are to protect herself and heer charge from harm. Others are thinking about "combat" and "Killin'" and"Blowin up doors". They load their gun with this BS. Their objectives are completely different than hers. Their reasons for carrying are completely different than hers. And their downrange performance will be too.

Going to the grocery store and being well armed is not combat. It is SELF DEEFENSE. If we practice it hard enough we will never see combat. And that right there is the difference between combat and self defense.

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Most experienced combat soldiers I know would rather not talk about it..They do their damndest to forget. A police Captain said that when they had a meeting after a shooting that the guys actually got very excited discussing how things went down !!!

Give me a break these are human lives that are being discussed. I have been around some in my years and the only time I have found I actually wanted a firearm with me is in snake country

How many of you have actually shot another human ?

They get excited when they beat you with a baton too. Funny how that happens.

I'm prpud to say I have never killed a man and I pray I never have to. I've never met a man that taken a life and been bold about it. Wouldn't respect a man that did. And Id do anything I could not to kill someone even if I thought it was justified. I do my best to stay out of situations where it could happen and play it cool if one does. I feel as safe as a baby and pretty darn confident Ill never need to use that gun.

It would sure change your life if you did. In a lot of negative ways. I don't consider it to be something that I would look back on as "exciting". Bummer class schitty day would be more like it.

.

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I don't see how this could be considered any sort of advantage. If my hunting bullet fragmented apart into 15 pieces when I shot an elk it would be considered a POS and I would be finding a better bullet. This one is designed to do that very thing, except look "cool" while doing it...

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Ammo is a tool.

One should choose the right tool for the task at hand.

Yet, obsurdity abounds. :nutty:

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I have 4 friggn' scars on my face from bullets from one a them crackheads who thought he could steal my gold. Walks right up to me and started a blastn' away without a single word. On my claim on the Merced a claimjumper started blastn' away at my 2 1/2 year old son and I as I walked up to him to see wtf was up and that problem eliminated.So talk all the mindless drivel ya want big bad bsr Bob as it IS war in many areas but you hide out in the sticks talkn' smack per usual.. :2mo5pow: John

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I have 4 friggn' scars on my face from bullets from one a them crackheads who thought he could steal my gold. Walks right up to me and started a blastn' away without a single word. On my claim on the Merced a claimjumper started blastn' away at my 2 1/2 year old son and I as I walked up to him to see wtf was up and that problem eliminated.So talk all the mindless drivel ya want big bad bsr Bob as it IS war in many areas but you hide out in the sticks talkn' smack per usual.. :2mo5pow: John

Can you explain how your experience makes fragmenting bullets any deadlier, less dangerous or more useful?

....I didn't think so.

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Ammo is a tool.

One should choose the right tool for the task at hand.

Yet, obsurdity abounds. :nutty:[/quote

Nothing as absurd as using a load of dimes to open a door huh?

Now that right there is some absurd schitt.

The proper tool to open a door is a key. Not a shotgun with dimes.

Tell us how you made those dimes fit down your shotgun barrel SP!

You heard that story about Billy the Kid shooting them out of the blind deputy's gun and thought that was pretty cool.

You are as full of it as you can get and spilling out over the top!

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Dimes won't fit in a full choke 12 gauge,but they do in a cylinder bore.

that is how some old timers checked the bore for choke. Several old time

bar tenders and store clerks used to keep a sawed off 12 gauge loaded

with dimes underthe counter, for up close use. It was more for the fear factor

than anything. This all started in the days of black powder,when some folks

would stuff anything including nails,rock salt,and tacks down a gun barrel in

a pinch,for ammo.

For some reason no one wanted to get hit in the gut with a load of dimes.

In reality a slug or load of 00 Buck ,would be better. A 12 gauge slug at close

range will lift a perp out of their socks.

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...words of wisdom from Sawmill. Spot on.

I bet you shoot hollow points in your weapon too. Just a hunch.

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Dimes won't fit down a full choke barrel but down a modifed I think they will BUT when those dimes turn sideways thats where the barrel opens up and KATIE bar the door for anyone standing behind,in front of or beside that barrel

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Jim,not that I promote the dime idea,but a cylinder bore shotgun ,with a short barrel

will deliver them out of the muzzle ,with no problem. The wad behind the dimes will

push them right down a short smooth barrel in one neat package,just like a slug. They

will scatter after leaving the muzzle. There is another trick ,but since this is a public

forum I won't give anyone any ideas.

I learned how to shoot from some old time lawmen,also learned some real dirty ways

used by the not so lawfull folks too. Never wanted to shoot at anyone,and hope that I

never have to,but I do know how.

I can understand what some of the guys,are saying about some of our younger cops

too. We have a few like that too,and these guys should be first on the list to not have

a gun, or be in law enforcement period. To be a good cop ,you have to have higher

standards than the bad guys, and learn how to give and take. Too many of the young

cops think that their badge is a license to be an A hole,or bully.

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Yeah Sawmill a short barrel is not full choke but I can't picture myself putting dimes in my shells when I reload considering a lead slug would do so much more !

I built a cannon one time in my younger years 1 full 3" 12 GA shell of Dupont powder down the barrel , 1 16GA shell cut off right at the brass and a .22 gun cleaning patch draped over the casing and 6" of dynamite fuse

Voila we now have ignition, run and peek around the corner of garage.

Oh crap a car coming down the road ! PLEASE don.t fire.

KABOOM well cannon is setting back about 30' from where it was fired. My 6' tall weaved 1X6 fence has holes all the way through it. A 2X6 that was on the outside leaning against fence has holes all the way through it. AND the car as I peek across the fence is parked out in the street with the driver walking around looking at tires :4chsmu1: I quickly skulk over pickup my toy, hide it in the garage and joyfully watch the driver get back in his car and drive off. I to this day don't know if I peppered that car or not :old:

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Boys will be Boys ... we all did 'stuff' ... not mentioning mine since I am sure some youngsters are reading this forum ... not wanting to 'educate' in the wrong direction! Leave it be said I and my compadres lived to tell about it!

Mike F

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Dimes won't fit down a full choke barrel but down a modifed I think they will BUT when those dimes turn sideways thats where the barrel opens up and KATIE bar the door for anyone standing behind,in front of or beside that barrel

They won't fit through any choke. Unless the barrel is "open choke" or "cylinder bore" they will rupture a barrel.

Since loading shotgun shells is a play on pressure and volume the chances of having a catsasstrophe is good. A shotgun will squib if the crimp openns up and there is not enough compaction on the powder. Too heavy a payload makes pressures rise exponentially. IWith a blackpowder gun loaded from the muzzle and an open choke (like old time shotguns) no problem. But with a modern shotgun there are a WHOLE LOT OF REASONS NOT TO DO THIS.

Not only for safety reasons but it is a crappy load. And 50 feet downrage the dimes are flying in a PARABOLIC ARC. They are no longer headed toward the target but in every direction EXCEPT THE TARGET. For years riflemen have attempted to eliminate chaotic forces to control a projectile(s) too make them more effective. This is going backwards.

It would be irresponsible for anyone to load a shotgun with dimes. It serves no purpose and is dangerous to the shooter and anyone else who may be in the area.

Even loading rock salt in a shotgun shell is dangerous. A squib takes several seconds to creep down the barrel and is under plenty of pressure. A shooter will often take the gun down from his shoulder or open the action before the wad exits and the pressure is released. Lots of guys learn the hard way about shotgun loading. It is not just as simple as opening the crimp and replacing the shot.

The best tool for the job is the proper one. A turkey is a TOUGH BIRD. The bullet proof vest was designed after the turkey's feather armor. I have blown one off his feet at 85 yards with a load of #2 copper plated in a 3" magnum with full choke.

At defense ranges a load of bird shot will cut a hole in a man but most will stop inside. Strays won't hurt the wife or kids in the next room. A shotgun is great home defense and I use the same loads as I hunt dove with. At defense range a shotgun will place 1 1/8 ounces of lead in a 2" spot no matter what size the pellets are. In a trailer house with kids you gotts think about a gunfight a little. No, it is by far the deadliest round for a shotgun. But it may be the best tool for the job.

Seelf defense is not about lethality or killing power. It is about thwarting an attack or better yet avoiding an attack all together. It is about LIVING. NOT KILLING. It is about how to survive. And the very best self defense scenario ends with no cops, no blood, no court dates and no explanations. Self defense is about never having to use it.

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Just to stir the pot a little I would like to point something out to the group that some may have not considered about experience and ballistics.

As a hunter I sstarted studying what a bullet did to. a living target at about eight years old. Over the years I have killed thousands of living things with dozens of different weapons from a bow to a high powered rifle. I go on big game hunts often and I hunt and guide on almost a monthly basis. I see hundreds of kills a year and I see the results of the shots up close.

Then every one of those animals is skinned annd dressed. The wound channel and damage is examined extensively because we are eating this stuff. A hunter KNOWS what a bullet does.

Over the years I have reloaded every round I have ever shot at an animal. I have shot many calibers and many different bullet styles. I have killed animals, dissected each and every one of them and then consumed them. I do not believe that combat experience gives a man that kind of uderstanding of what a bullet does to a living target. While it is true that some may claim experiences in combat that I will never know, there are a few things that I do know. And what makes a bullet kill is one of those things.

It isn't about a pissing match. It is real stuff. Good guys are safer and bad guys aren't if we know a bit about what we are shooting. I think that is really important stuff.

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Dang, still talkin' about dimes? I'm so proud!

I seem to remember reffering to using them as a door opener.

At that they do quite well.

I didn't say a thing about using the load for hunting or

what ever. Sheesh. Balistics?, I don't need no stinkin' balistics.

My whole point was that they will rip the heck out of a door.

May be good for a hallway but I never shot them over 5 or 6 ft.

They don't go through the door like a slug or buck shot will,

so minimal collateral damage on the other side. But they sure

do a number on the door. I have a barely legal sawed off

for just such shinanigans. A key just isn't as much fun. LOL

Fragmentation rounds are way too cool too. Most any Vet can tell ya that.

Oh ya, throw in some phos for effect. (grin)

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Do not let them freak ya out and hold onto the gun. :4chsmu1:

(those are so cool to shoot)

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...words of wisdom from Sawmill. Spot on.

I bet you shoot hollow points in your weapon too. Just a hunch.

Bob I use what does the job. I carry a couple clips for my 9mm ,both loaded with snake shot,

and metal jacket hollow points. At camp or home it is all jacketed hollow points. I only use

Winchester or Remington ammo and no reloads in all of my guns. No hollow points or fancy

bullets for hunting either,except hollow points in the 22-250 for coyotes. I am not a long range,

or target shooter,most of my shooting is in the brush,or timber.

The rest I only use soft nose or core locks,or Winchester silver tips. I gave my model 700

Remington .270 to my Son with ,one round left out of a box of 20,everyone of the missing

19 rounds all got a deer each,and he finished off the last one with another deer. You don't

need fancy crap ,if you can hunt or hit where you point.

I have never had a cripple or wasted meat,and none have ever taken over a couple jumps

after being hit. I used to do a lot of bird hunting,and loved hunting ducks and geese until I

saw them feeding in the sewer ponds. That kinda soured me on that. I hate turkey,so I quit

chasing them too,and I gave my shotguns to my boys. By the way my old wife can cut a deer

up and have it in the freezer and a pot of chili made, before most guys can figure out where

to start. Out of all the fancy guns that I ever owned,my old 64 Winchester with iron sights is

still my favorite game getter. It fits like a glove,and hits where I point it. Last deer I shot with

it was a 6 point buck ,shot him from the hip and,he dropped like a rock. When I shoot it from

the shoulder it is on target before I even look through the sights. Don't need no stinking sights.

Fancy knives,guns and bullets don't mean a thing,unless one just likes to play with shiny toys.

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Now that you all Twisted this post Four Ways from Sunday, do you think a Home Invader would like a Face full of this?

It would be rather dumb to use one of those rounds on a home intruder.

1 A face full of lead would do a better job

2. You would set your house on fire

3. You would be blinded by the huge flash and unable to see for several seconds afterward.

Why not just throw grenades at an intruder? Weep a roman candle under the bed and shoot him with that!

It is fireworks. Not defense rounds. May as well wave a sparkler at him.

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No I would not use one Bob! The dogs would chit them self. Number 4's would do the job just fine. Problem here is the dogs would have taken them down before I got awake. Just no Fears on Home Invasions here unless it was the Government. Now that would be another story.

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Now that you all Twisted this post Four Ways from Sunday, do you think a Home Invader would like a Face full of this?

UH OH.... my knees are made out if zirconium, great photography in the vid!

I can't see much in the way of practical use other than loads of fun like shooting a cannon with a boost of coffee creamer!

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