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Dizzo

Topographic Software

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Thanks for chiming in Jason and EL D!

WTH John! They were $3 just the other day :) And please pass along the name and phone # of this place I want to solicit there business.

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You guys ever use google earth with kml overalays of topo information or even geological information?

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Cell phone GPS (at least the 3 android phones I've owned including the original Droid) most certainly use NMEA sentences, in fact you can access the raw NMEA data for you own use fairly easily. This is raw data from the GPS chip itself, not produced by the OS as was inferred in a previous post. There are a number of free apps in the google play store a person can download where you can view the raw NMEA data (or if a guy knows a bit of Java he can access the raw data through his own app). I can't speak for iPhone because I've never owned one but I would suspect it's the same.

I don't know of any cell phones that include WAAS but you can buy a secondary bluetooth GPS for Android phones that is in fact WAAS enabled if anyone needs that accuracy. Really wish they'd incorporate it into phones, hopefully someone will soon. The nice thing about the bluetooth though is you can use it also with your laptop, tablet, etc. which is awesome when you want a bigger screen (truck mounted computer for instance).

Also, full GPS data processing is not anywhere close to exceeding the power of even an entry level current market smartphone, even utilizing WAAS, in fact it's not even a major consideration. What is far more resource intensive is processing the graphical end of things, especially when utilizing maps with multiple layers. My current smartphone is a couple magnitudes more powerful than the laptop I was running full mapping programs + GPS on 10 years ago and would have no problem processing the data if it were available I am very certain.

To the original poster - if you have Backcountry Navigator already then you can download unlimited USGS topo maps offline for use off the grid on your Android phone, which sounds like what you were asking about? (and also federal land ownership maps which is nice) Or is there a reason you want to use the specific .tifs from topoquest?

edit: here's the class including the method to call to listen to the NMEA data for those who code (just because I'm confused why people think you can't as the GPS chip is standalone as any other GPS and the cellphone OS simply interfaces it) http://developer.android.com/reference/android/location/GpsStatus.NmeaListener.html

I should have listened to my gut feeling when I tried to simplify some pretty complex stuff for a group of folks who just want to believe they bought a real GPS unit when they got their phone. I never tried to imply that you couldn't get location information from your phone or that they were weak computing devices. My intention was not to offend but to inform.

I will admit that I gave up trying to work with the Google code groups Jason. I always felt the android program had great promise and there are several other projects with good potential there. The problem comes when the California attitude that every bit of code has to be agreed by consensus.

A few months ago I gave up on Google Code when I realized that the alert protocols in CEF1 were never going to be usable because the folks "working" on those basic and very simple functions were spending all their time arguing whether they should put their efforts into CEF3 - which also has broken alert protocols. That little discussion had been running on for over two years. The basic alert protocols in both are still broken but I'm sure several of those folks would argue endlessly that CEF3 is "less broken". Such is the state of Google open source.

I was coding in the 1970's for Kodak and Texas Instruments. We did some fun stuff back then that has a lot to do with why you can see what you are doing on a computer today. I would never claim that you wouldn't be able to use your cell phone for games and video if I hadn't done the work back then. I did write the code that made possible those graphic capabilities but I'm pretty sure if I hadn't figured it out someone else would have. I know a teeny bit about graphics generation and processing. :inocent:

I think if you look closer at the apps available for Android NMEA output you will find that the one's that actually "work" are emulators extrapolating the NMEA sentence from the phones location output. Although that may look good on the few phones they work on read further to see why those results may be less accurate than they appear to be.

Onto your statement about Android phones and how you only need to call NmeaListener and Bob's yer Uncle you've got NMEA sentences. According to issue 7321 on the Android bug list the NmeaListener is a defect that has gone unsolved for more than two years. If you have found a way to get that function to work on all Android devices I'm sure you could add your two cents to that still open defect. Before you do you might want to look into the issues with cheap cellphone GPS receivers. Besides some rather bad timing issues and missing protocols there is the issue of cellphone manufacturers constantly switching suppliers. I think you will find that the cellphone manufacturers really don't care about bad timing or missing protocols because they don't use those features. It's not broke from their perspective as long as people believe their cell phone is the same thing as a dedicated GPS commercial handheld.

As for my own use of GPS data I am more interested in the ability to display accurate tracks and waypoints on high resolution high accuracy maps with a high level of confidence. Androids don't play well with other devices when it comes to their location information no matter what form it is in or how accurate it is. So for now the Android platform is a non starter for high level mapping. "GPS" cell phones, including Androids, don't have modern accuracy confidence in their location data.

We are striving for greater accuracy and better quality positional information - not non WAAS enabled cell phone location information or Google Earth "within 300 foot" accuracy. We are not willing to go back to the positional accuracy of a decade ago.

Others may only have need of "kind of around there" information and they may be willing to find the exact cellphone to work with the exact app to give them that level of accuracy. That's fine, most people will never find a need for better location information than what their in car GPS or cellphone gives them.

Smart phones and tablets will improve in time. The script kids at Google will eventually get NmeaListener working or move on to a more productive set of protocols - or not. In the meantime for those who want better positional accuracy and more confidence in their true ground position Jason and El Dorado have already given you the answer - buy a modern GPS receiver and plug it into your favorite device. :D

Now let's go get some gold. If you are 15 foot away from the true position I won't give a hoot - as long as you can dig. :4chsmu1:

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Dodacious recently bought me a Samsung Tablet 2 - 10.1 that has an amazing GPS program called "Local" ... It uses Google earth and actually shows my position change from my office to the kitchen to the bedroom ,etc., ... It's accurate to about 3 feet ... Works off of wifi or its own vorizen hotspot.

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FYI people, be aware that with just a few searches in google, you can find detailed topo maps of the whole continent. You can also add geological overlays which tell you even more information. Not to mention mineral overalays of every type you can imagine.

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Sure do Buck,

The most common overlay I use is the township, section, range.

Maps are only a small part of my research. I put much more time in historic accounts and production data and best of all boots on the ground.

IMG_0025.jpg

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nvChris, can you elaborate on your comment ..township, section, range...

I am just getting into this and I need all the help I can get.

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Cough :old: > Section, Township, Range, Meridian, County, State.

Shown on all BLM Master Title plats & almost all Topografic maps.

Areas where Township is unsurveyed, T, R & sections lines may be protracted, or not.

LR 2000 system shows mining claims position in aliqout part by 1/4 or halves within square mile 640 acre Sections.

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Clay - that old nmealistener bug is in the emulator only. It works fine when using the app on an actual phone with a real GPS chip inside. The emulator is just a "virtual" phone in the programming environment so that you don't have to upload your program to your phone everytime you make a change to it while coding.

Anyways, I wanted to point out that (most) smartphones do in fact have real GPS chips just like a standalone unit and there is no reason to distrust them any more than I'd distrust my old Garmin which served me fine for a decade until I started staking corners on my own claims and needed more accuracy. As has already been pointed out, a person would want a WAAS enabled unit for things like that.

The major issue with phone GPS I think is that they are often by default set to low refresh rates in some navigator apps (ostensibly to save on battery). Some only get a new fix every minute or so which is not acceptable to me if the app offers no option to decrease it to something more reasonable like at least 1-5 seconds. A lot of people think their GPS is innacurate or malfunctioning because of this issue.

That and some phones use a cheap chip or bad design that causes the reception to be quite poor compared to a standalone unit. YMMV though depending on the phone, I've had good luck in this particular area thankfully.

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Thanks elder. Does anyone have a good tutorial page for the lr2000? The learning curve seems to be high for newbies. Looks like raw data is the way to go if you want good up to date information.

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NVChris-RIGHTEOUS NASTY ROUGH GNARLY :goodpost: HUNKA CHUNKA REDHEADED LUV. I like it rough what can I say. Ellis Survey Supplies,2030 Market,Redding,Kalif 530-244-4417. All good survey shops have the USGS discs now as do most good sized backpak,camping and sportsman shops too. Prices down and can choose coated/uncoated-I like the water protection for the extra 25 cent on all my maps, John :thumbsupanim

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Buck,

Section, Township, Range, Meridian, County, State. (thx John for the right order) is how BLM and the county assorters office locate claims and how one identifies a claim location.

For example a 10 acre claim is listed/described as SE1/4 of SE1/4 of NW 1/4, S. 20. T4N, R3E meridian, district, county, state.

This example is outdated tho but its a good example of how S<T<R<M is used today.

A good book to learn this is "Stake your Claim" by Mark S. Silva ISBN 0-9627347-0-5

Another great book is "Fists full of Gold" by Chris Ralph (WSPA's claim director)

post-861-0-94471800-1358886222_thumb.jpg

Here is a link to Clay and Ruby's LR2000 primer. No one repackages public information quite as well!

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Chris: How the heck can you tell where the 2 1/2 ACS location is...it would seem that would give you no reference, just size, however all of the rest make sense

Great conversation here, but a little like a techno royal rumble meets old school logic.

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Chris: How the heck can you tell where the 2 1/2 ACS location is...it would seem that would give you no reference, just size, however all of the rest make sense

Great conversation here, but a little like a techno royal rumble meets old school logic.

High tech gear runs on electricity. So, the gear is only as good as the electrical supply, or battery life. Plus, glitches in hardware & software can occur, rendering the gear useless. Redundancy is key, when you are many bad road miles from high tech help, repair or replacement.

For the high tech, I usually have triple redundant systems. So, if any of that gear glitches, or dies. I can use a back up, on hand to replace it. Sort of like having 3 spares, instead of none.

I usually also carry a Brunton type compass, hip chain, hand held level, & flagging just in case all the high tech gear gets waterlogged, goes bad, is damaged or stolen.

Most copy places like Kinko’s have laminators.

I usually take a portable HD with topo’s on it to Kinko’s, plug in their computer, then print color hard copies of portions of Topo’s, of the area I am interested in, then heavy duty laminate them.

More than once, in the field those laminated color hard copies were worth their weight in gold.

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Diz,

Think of it as a square dish of brownies and work it backwards with the description starting with the section then the rest in reverse order. 4 brownies cut into 16 cut into 32 or how ever big of a brownie you like :)

I.E. Section 20 is a square mile, then the NW 1/4 of section 20 is a quarter mile square, then the NW 1/4 of that quarter section and so on….

Its tricky at first till you do it several times and you can still get it wrong. :)

I got a stack of topo's durn near 2' tall plus 2, four drawer file cabinets full of the odd maps and a laminator :)

You may like this elder, a square tube Lietz sight level and a pocket transit.

IMG_0001_zps0cc69ccb.jpg

The pocket transit

IMG_0002_zpsa6f67bff.jpg

IMG_0001_zps0f030721.jpg

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"...You may like this elder, a square tube Lietz sight level and a pocket transit..."

:thumbsupanim Sweet as exists & the way I started out.

Still carry them & a gimble ball staff, just in case.

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There is NO such thing as a legal 2 1/2 acre anything as a mill site can be 5 acres and claims 10 but thats the limit for size reduction. Anything smaller and time for county recorders books-John

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Correct John,

You can't file any new claim in that size, but there are still some fractional claims on the books.

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Correct John,

You can't file any new claim in that size, but there are still some fractional claims on the books.

I find this interesting. It seems to be common "knowledge" on the internet but I can't find any law or court decisions saying there is any minimum. I know that lode claims can not be less than 25 foot on each side of a discovery (per Section 2 of the 1872 Act) but I just can't find any restriction on placer claim minimum size.

Seems you gentlemen might be able to clear that up for me. Was it a law I missed or was it a court decision that changed the existing law?

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I find this interesting. It seems to be common "knowledge" on the internet but I can't find any law or court decisions saying there is any minimum. I know that lode claims can not be less than 25 foot on each side of a discovery (per Section 2 of the 1872 Act) but I just can't find any restriction on placer claim minimum size.

Seems you gentlemen might be able to clear that up for me. Was it a law I missed or was it a court decision that changed the existing law?

There is no minimum claim size.

If there were, covering an unclaimed open to mineral entry public domain areas of small extent with a mining claim would be impossible.

Most often, claims taken up to cover any existing small area or areas between existing unpatented or patented mining claims and/or other patented lands are called, referred to or named “whatever-it-is” fraction to signify the area claimed is fractional in size.

To gain extralateral rights over a small fraction (½ or 1 ½ acres for instance) existing between multiple lode claims. The claim can be normal size, or smaller, so long as the side lines are parallel & the end line are perpendicular, and within the location notice the claimant excludes all conflicting area covered by valid pre-existing adjoining claims, excepting the open to entry fractional area.

In other words, one could lay out and stake a 1500 x 600 foot (20.66 acre), or 750 x 300 foot (10.33 acres) or even smaller lode claim over a 1.5 acre fraction, excluding all conflicts with adjoining valid claims. End result is the claimant only claims 1.5 acres & gains extralateal rights to it.

There are so many variables when it comes to placer claim fractions, I am not even going to attempt to explain them all.

But, lets say some way or another a small unclaimed fraction existed, ½ acre, or 2 acres in size.

To cover that fraction in a surveyed township, or a township where a survey was protracted over it.

One would determine the smallest aliquot part legal description to cover the fraction.

Then, exclude or omit all valid conflicting mining claims, or patented fee simple lands from the legal description in his location notice

ftezk4.jpg

BLM-MTP above shows a long snake like contigious group of fractions by lots in RED.

Adjoining patented Mineral Surveys all stopped at the rivers edge.

Leaving the Klamath river high water mark to high water mark for 3/4 of a mile unclaimed.

If this long fraction were claimed, it would be described by Lot numbers.

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Go to BLM.gov and read like everyone else-educate and prosper-John

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Clay, I was referring to the Mill site size in Johns post.

The BLM will allow fractional claims, you have to demonstrate the need for them. i.e. conform to existing boundaries. For the most part they "like" new placer claims to be a minim of 20 acer.

I's my understanding that this policy is in place to minimize the nightmare of mapping and boundary descriptions.

Are not the annual BLM fees for a 2.27 fractional placer claim the same as a 20 acer placer claim?

I'm in no way an expert or even close. I use the DOI's BLM book "Location and Validity of Mining Claims and Sites in California" as a reference.

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I just filed a claim that is such a strange shape that it is impossible to describe by A.P. Had to describe by using government survey lot numbers. Just like your example above. I think it has 23 corners and only a few are 90 degree corners.

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Metes and bounds still apply but gulch placers are REALLY fought now for some reason?? Nice to hear your still in their El D-John

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I have a question for Clay. When the Footprints claim boundaries are over laid on Google Earth Sat photos what is the potential margin of error? Lets say the LSD area to be more specific. Thanks,

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