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Desertsunburn

BLM - NEW RULES - READ THIS

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Well there ya have it..... :grr01:

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Man that's BS! So now the casual prospector can't sell their meteorites. Hope this don't bleed over into gold too.

Rim :*&$*(:

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Here is the FAQ about this...

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/wo/Information_Resources_Management/policy/im_attachments/2012.Par.65264.File.dat/IM2012-182_att1.pdf

For the common feller, this is not going to change much. However, for the well known hunters that sell commercially, this is going to effect them as they will be required to obtain a permit. As best as I can read, the permit fee will be tied to the value of the meteorite.

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Read the FAQ! The first paragraph had me rolling on the floor laughing! Really? The BLM is going to educate the public on Meteorites! :hahaha:

I wonder who is going to educate them??? :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha:

Remember guys......the Government is going to take care of you. :*&$*(: :*&$*(: :*&$*(: :*&$*(:

Jim

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Absolute nonsense.

The reason this was not published in the Federal Register much less promulgated as a new regulation is because they have no basis in law for what they propose.

What they have done is create an "Instruction Memorandum" that expires in September of next year. Hardly enforceable as there is no penalty for violation - there would have to be a law to do that.

I find this little tidbit from their attachment especially amusing.

Can a mining claim be located for meteorites?

No, a mining claim may not be located for meteorites. Meteorites do not meet the definition of a

mineral resource under the general mining and mineral laws. The extraterrestrial origins of

meteorites have made them unique and of extreme commercial and scientific value. Therefore,

because of their origins they are not subject to the mining and mineral laws.

The BLM itself holds the patent records for the Barringer Crater in Northern Arizona so I can only assume they really are joking. The Barringer Meteor Crater is a 640 acre patented mining claim. The claim was based on the metals found in the meteorite.

The BLM seems to skip over the fact that every mineral on earth has "extraterrestrial origins". It's all stuff from the stars.

There is a lot more silliness in this "Instruction Memorandum", If it were April 1st I would laugh along with the BLM, as it stands I can only laugh at them.

No "rules" here folks just a gov employee with a head bigger than the stars doing what those sort have always done - issue memorandums with no effect in law.

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States areas that have been removed from "casual collecting" include..."some wilderness areas"... I guess the north end of franconia is now off limits.

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States areas that have been removed from "casual collecting" include..."some wilderness areas"... I guess the north end of franconia is now off limits.

Actually most true "Wilderness" areas designated by GOV have always been off limits to mineral removal or collection so nothing really new there Jeff.

But each area can be managed somewhat differently allowing rock hounding etc so at best it is very confusing.

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Sorry to contradict you Bill but the Wilderness Act specifically allows prospecting in the wilderness.

From the Wilderness Act:

SPECIAL PROVISIONS

(d) The following special provisions are hereby made:

(2) Nothing in this Act shall prevent within national forest wilderness areas any activity,

including prospecting, for the purpose of gathering information about mineral or other

resources, if such activity is carried on in a manner compatible with the preservation of the

wilderness environment.

Motorized methods are out but if you can do it with a shovel, pan or sluice you can prospect the wilderness.

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Sorry to contradict you Bill but the Wilderness Act specifically allows prospecting in the wilderness.

From the Wilderness Act:

Motorized methods are out but if you can do it with a shovel, pan or sluice you can prospect the wilderness.

Clay

I think I read somewhere that you have to walk into the area meaning no vehicles. Is that true too?

Rim

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"... may not be battered or sold"... :*&$*(:

edit ..........I wonder if you can barter battered meteorites?

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I am a casual collector, so it appears not much of an impact on me (I do not sell - at least not commericially). One item of interest is that you will be able to review permits of any commercial collector that gets a permit on BLM regulated land.

As for the concept of this having no basis in law or regulation, that could be argued by 50 attorneys and 25 would take each side. That is a hard one to fight. Courts have ruled that federal agencies have very wide latitude to interpret implementation of existing laws and regulations that they write. I am not trying to get into a philosophical debate on this, just pointing out that fact. The Federal Register and public participation are only really required under the Constitution when they are adopting a new enforceable requirement or a regulatory or statutory required notice (it is more policy by OMB to publish other stuff in the Federal Register). Enforceable would mean that they could take your property if violated some new requirement or limit (property=money from you as a fine). However, banning you from further collecting on public lands for non-compliance would not be a taking since they are the land managers. I guess you could always pay for attorneys and go to federal court and fight it.

Actually, I am a small business owner and I have to get licenses and permits all the time. I do not find it a problem that commercial meteorite hunters do the same. Just glad the left us "little guys" alone.

Just my opinion.

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Hi Clay, I am now confused because in many places here in AZ the local authorities will arrest one for prospecting or detecting one being the wilderness area near Gold Basin (Willow Springs I think it is called) is one we all avoid and there are also others here with the protected species wilderness area designation that are totally off limits to removal of rocks, plants, etc. The wilderness act of 1964 allows withdrawal of these areas....

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=nwps&sec=legisact

This Act initially protected 54 wilderness areas (9.1 million acres) by withdrawing them from standard multiple use management and established a process for adding new lands to the National Wilderness Preservation System. Lands classified as wilderness through the Wilderness Act could be under jurisdiction of the Forest Service, National Park Service, or Fish and Wildlife Service (The Bureau of Land Managment did not manage wilderness until passage of the Forest Land Policy and Management Act in 1976). With some exceptions, prohibitions include closure to motorized and mechanized vehicles, timber harvest, new grazing and mining activity, or any kind of development.

This act now includes millions more acres across the country.

Are you saying these areas are open to prospecting? I think maybe it is the "type" of protected area we are talking about? Arizona has many closed areas to protect some critter or even plants.

The area near Franconia asked about is home to a protected species of Horned Toad so would likely be included though I have never heard of anyone being bothered for collecting meteorites there... Yet.

Many areas here in AZ are tagged this way and tied in with the endangered species act which gives the land "Refuge" status, seems they like mining areas as well since many cover some very rich areas like Kofa Wilderness area, here is their guidelines for use...

Area Management

The Kofa Wilderness is part of the 110 million acre National Wilderness Preservation System. This System of lands provides clean air, water, and habitat critical for rare and endangered plants and animals. In wilderness, you can enjoy challenging recreational activities like hiking, backpacking, climbing, kayaking, canoeing, rafting, horse packing, bird watching, stargazing, and extraordinary opportunities for solitude. You play an important role in helping to

"secure for the American people of present and future generations the benefits of an enduring resource of wilderness"

as called for by the Congress of the United States through the

Wilderness Act of 1964

. Please follow the requirements outlined below and use

Leave No Trace techniques

when visiting the Kofa Wilderness to ensure protection of this unique area.

The Kofa Refuge and Wilderness is open to visitation year-round, 24 hours a day. There are no entrance fees and visitors are free to camp wherever they choose, keeping in mind the vehicle restrictions. The vast majority of visits to the Refuge take place between October and March when winter visitors flock to southern Arizona. These “snowbirds,” however, tend to remain on or close to the designated roads, so intrepid hikers may still find vast areas of the Refuge for themselves. The Refuge is virtually devoid of human activity during the hot summer months.

The Refuge was established primarily for protection of desert bighorn sheep and their habitat, and that is still the number one management objective. Subsequently, wilderness visitor are apt to encounter remnants of human use in the form of man-made structures such as concrete dams, windmills, and enhanced wildlife waters. Many of these structures, built in the 1940s and ‘50s, are allowed to slowly deteriorate, while others are maintained by refuge staff to provide essential water needs for desert wildlife. On a few rare occasions, wilderness solitude may be interrupted by the sounds and sights of aerial overflights as refuge staff conduct wildlife surveys. Most of the airspace over the refuge is military, so you may also see and hear military jets and helicopters during your visit. By and large, however, the remoteness and solitude of Kofa’s backcountry is unmatched by other, more heavily visited wildernesses.

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Clay

I think I read somewhere that you have to walk into the area meaning no vehicles. Is that true too?

Rim

You can walk or ride a horse or mule but no motorized transportation in wilderness. There is an exception in the Wilderness Act for boats and aircraft in some cases but they are rare.

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One thing I find interesting and it is unknown at this time is how the permit will be structured. If you look at how many Commercial Hunters there are (actively engaged in the meteorite business of hunting and selling meteorites) there are very few...probably under 200 and maybe a hundred in the USA??? I can count the ones I actually know on my hands and can name them.

So, based on that, if this new rule costs the Government $200,000 (which is probably low) to administer, without causing addition burden on taxpayers, the permit fees should be somewhere between $1000 to $2000 per year, putting all the burden on the hunters and not the taxpayers.

If the BLM is going to do something more lame and stupid than this, permits will be $20....and they will once again prove to the American People how utterly stupid they can be.

Additionally, we do not know what permit fee structure is going to be. If this is going to be based on local supervisor control, permits are going to kill off the mad rush to new falls by commercial hunters as "ethics" will dictate they get a permit to hunt in the area of the fall. Right now...this is all unknown...but I bet the BLM knows. Keep in mind, in any big business, they have forcasters hiding in the background that are looking a minimum of 5 years down the road. Our Government is no different.

It sure is opening a can of worms.

Jim

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I think they have also added mountain bikes and others to this "good" list is some spots like Kofa, but they have to remain on designated trails with the bikes.

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Sorry to contradict you Bill but the Wilderness Act specifically allows prospecting in the wilderness.

From the Wilderness Act:

Motorized methods are out but if you can do it with a shovel, pan or sluice you can prospect the wilderness.

Nope. Look at the last sentence. That is the clincher. Propsecting is often considered not compatable with the wilderness. And in order to do any of the activities you mention there other regulations that apply both Federal and State.

While it is not ALWAYS true, it is safe to asume that Wilderness has been withdrawn from mineral entry and is off limits. There are exceptions, but this is the general rule.

Nevermind the Feds. The State here has declared that you must get a (very expensive) permit from them to prospect on ANY land whether it be public, private or otherwise. So if you dig deep enough someone, somewhere is in your shorts.

Not that it matters anyhoo. Why would anyone pay attention to any of it? A man is either going to do what he is going to do and accept the consequences or he is not going to do a darn thing except contemplate the consequences. The old timers dealt with distance, hunger, loneliness and violence to get some gold. If a little thing like a misdemeanor is going to deter you from hunting then you are sunk before you started.

Hey, I'm not advocating breaking the law but our leaders do it every day. They set the examples. All I am saying is when in Rome....

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Agreed Jim and it will be interesting how this plays out in the future, likely not good for hobbiests or pros though sadly. Sam is a pretty greedy feller these days and what is next like mentioned?

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Hi Clay, I am now confused because in many places here in AZ the local authorities will arrest one for prospecting or detecting one being the wilderness area near Gold Basin (Willow Springs I think it is called) is one we all avoid and there are also others here with the protected species wilderness area designation that are totally off limits to removal of rocks, plants, etc. The wilderness act of 1964 allows withdrawal of these areas....

http://www.wildernes...ps&sec=legisact

This Act initially protected 54 wilderness areas (9.1 million acres) by withdrawing them from standard multiple use management and established a process for adding new lands to the National Wilderness Preservation System. Lands classified as wilderness through the Wilderness Act could be under jurisdiction of the Forest Service, National Park Service, or Fish and Wildlife Service (The Bureau of Land Managment did not manage wilderness until passage of the Forest Land Policy and Management Act in 1976). With some exceptions, prohibitions include closure to motorized and mechanized vehicles, timber harvest, new grazing and mining activity, or any kind of development.

This act now includes millions more acres across the country.

Are you saying these areas are open to prospecting? I think maybe it is the "type" of protected area we are talking about? Arizona has many closed areas to protect some critter or even plants.

Thanks for putting up the link to the Wilderness Act Bill. Scroll down to the "Special Provisions" section and you can see that it is not me saying you can prospect the wilderness but Congress that made the right to prospect part of the Wilderness Act.

The region around Gold Basin has two wilderness'. The Mount Tipton Wilderness just East of Dolan Springs and the Mount Wilson Wilderness just East of Hwy 93 as you enter Nevada from the South. Prospecting is allowed in both of these wilderness' just as in all National Wilderness'.

As far as people being arrested for prospecting in wilderness I will chalk that up to internet rumor until someone actually produces a case, I have found none. Considering that the law specifically states that prospecting is allowed in wilderness I can't imagine what law would be cited as the cause for arrest.

The Wilderness Act is Federal law governing federal lands designated as wilderness. State lands have their own rules, regulations and laws.

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Thanks for putting up the link to the Wilderness Act Bill. Scroll down to the "Special Provisions" section and you can see that it is not me saying you can prospect the wilderness but Congress that made the right to prospect part of the Wilderness Act.

The region around Gold Basin has two wilderness'. The Mount Tipton Wilderness just East of Dolan Springs and the Mount Wilson Wilderness just East of Hwy 93 as you enter Nevada from the South. Prospecting is allowed in both of these wilderness' just as in all National Wilderness'.

As far as people being arrested for prospecting in wilderness I will chalk that up to internet rumor until someone actually produces a case, I have found none. Considering that the law specifically states that prospecting is allowed in wilderness I can't imagine what law would be cited as the cause for arrest.

The Wilderness Act is Federal law governing federal lands designated as wilderness. State lands have their own rules, regulations and laws.

So the question begs....Is "prospecting" "mining" according to this act???

I agree that there is a great amount of internet rumor. Cases are a matter of public record and I have searched high and low for them in AZ and find nothing.

Jim

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Once upon a time I asked a fellow for permission to drywash on his claim. He had some good looking canyon and I was mighty curious. His response was that he would allow it but I would have to give him "Ten percent of the gold!" (as if I was going to hit a payday). Well, at the end of the day ten percent of not much is even less. So I gave him the whole five dollars worth.

That is a whole lot like the BLM proposing to charge a percentage on the sale of a meteorite that hasn't been found yet.

And I guarantee that if a new valuable meteorite or strewn field is found on public land the finder is not going to come forward with it until he has hunted that spot raw and then told all his buddies about it and insured the pickin's were slim. And then the BLM is going to find out about it five years later when a single specimen is classified and 20% donated to science. From there on out the rest will be sold :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: TEN POUNDS AT A TIME :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: by "casual hunters". Either that or the location will be doctored so as to overlap private land and a deal struck with the landowner that is better than what the BLM is getting.

Heck, variations of that are being used every day already to maximize the value of a find. It would be a lot better for science as well as the BLM to just require a simple $10 permit for anyone hunting ANYTHING and just calm down. Let stuff be found and invite people to enjoy their public lands.

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If the permits are strutured regionally and not nationally, this actually gives the amateur hobbyist an advantage and they will not have to wait for permitting, etc. to hunt. Whereas the pros will have to wait. Yeah....like that is going to happen! Ethics will be out the window in less than milliseconds!

Jim

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Once upon a time I asked a fellow for permission to drywash on his claim. He had some good looking canyon and I was mighty curious. His response was that he would allow it but I would have to give him "Ten percent of the gold!" (as if I was going to hit a payday). Well, at the end of the day ten percent of not much is even less. So I gave him the whole five dollars worth.

That is a whole lot like the BLM proposing to charge a percentage on the sale of a meteorite that hasn't been found yet.

And I guarantee that if a new valuable meteorite or strewn field is found on public land the finder is not going to come forward with it until he has hunted that spot raw and then told all his buddies about it and insured the pickin's were slim. And then the BLM is going to find out about it five years later when a single specimen is classified and 20% donated to science. From there on out the rest will be sold :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: TEN POUNDS AT A TIME :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: :hahaha: by "casual hunters". Either that or the location will be doctored so as to overlap private land and a deal struck with the landowner that is better than what the BLM is getting.

Heck, variations of that are being used every day already to maximize the value of a find. It would be a lot better for science as well as the BLM to just require a simple $10 permit for anyone hunting ANYTHING and just calm down. Let stuff be found and invite people to enjoy their public lands.

Not so sure I agree with a lot of this. Hunters usually pay a property owner very well for meteorites found on their property. On a recent fall owners were being paid 50% and that is a fact!

A $10,000 stone would pay the owner $5,000 on the spot.

$10 permits would simply put more burden on the Taxpayer....BS.

Jim

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We both posted the same thought simultaneously! Now isn't that special?

Okay!! Their excuse for doing this is the media! How funny! I am nosing around, trying to find out how this structure is going to be.

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