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Claimjumpers caught in Placer county

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Gripper

First let me say,that I find your interest in picking at the law just a little

strange. The last time I saw this,is when others tried jumping my claims.

I tried to save them a lot of trouble by explaining the laws ,but they wouldn't

listen either. Long story short,their refusal to hear the facts,cost them

some serious time,expense,and public embarrassment ,plus they got

banned from this forum.

Second,a very reputable California attorney has already backed up my

statements on this matter,in these threads. The first thing you need to

learn is how to find the laws,and then be able to make sense of them. All

mining laws are just common sense laws. But common law,court decisions,

rules,and regulations,are also used in conjunction with mining law.

Here is the court cite that backs up the missing monument,or paper issue.

Tonopah and Salt Lake Mining V Tonopah County 125 Fed [C.C.D. Nev 1903]

I am not going to hunt it up for you,but I suggest that you find it and read it.

Also if you have anymore doubt,I suggest that you find a reputable mining

attorney ,and consult him or her. This goes for anyone that may be thinking

of doing something that sounds a little odd,or you just don't know. Asking

questions from an attorney is a hell of a lot cheaper than meeting one in court.

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Guest Gripper

Sawmill,

Please do not put a spin on this topic in an attempt to destroy my character. That's pretty weak. Take a minute to reread my first post, especially the first line.

I will look up the court case you are speaking of.

The thing that blows me away about this topic is how so many people will fight for the right to neglect the very monument and posting that established their claim. Staking a claim involves a monument and notice of location, the recording is not even necessary for 90 days! So what is the most important feature behind a mining claim? No city boy, not the paperwork for records sake, the actual claim monument and notice of location. That is why the BLM doesn't even waste the time in telling you that it needs to be there for the life of the claim!!!!

That's my point.

I'm done with this.

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Tonopah and Salt Lake Mining V Tonopah County 125 Fed [C.C.D. Nev 1903]

"Also, obliteration or removal of the notice of location, such as from storms or vandals (common sense!) does not invalidate a claim."

Read the rest here:

http://books.google....1903%5D&f=false

Also, page 292 at:

http://books.google.com/books?id=aow9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA292&dq=Tonopah+and+Salt+Lake+Mining+V+Tonopah+Mining+Co+125+Fed+%5BC.C.D.+Nev+1903%5D&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UdhaT7LkPIiViALT49WKCw&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Tonopah%20and%20Salt%20Lake%20Mining%20V%20Tonopah%20Mining%20Co%20125%20Fed%20%5BC.C.D.%20Nev%201903%5D&f=false

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Guest Gripper

Thanks Slim,

That's what I have been looking for.

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Gripper

You Sir owe me an apology! The information I just gave you is the same

as what Slim just gave. No one tried to spin anything,and I was just trying

to explain the situation.

I am done with you and your kind.

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Guest Gripper

Sawmill,

Your post was designed to make me look like a claimjumper looking for a loophole. Plain and simple.

My kind is the type that takes monumenting and posting our claims seriously. You do not belong with us.

Gripper

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Well Gripper

You are dead wrong in your above statements too. My claims are well

monumented, including discovery monuments,papers and signs. I spend

a considerable amount of time and money keeping it like that. But I am

not going to lose them because some tin horn doesn't understand the

law either. I have replaced all of the above several times because people

tear them down .

Bill Southern has been to my claims as a guest,and I am sure he can verify

the effort I have made to make my claims known to the public. Also your City

Boy assumption is wrong. I live 78 miles from the nearest town that is big

enough to have a drug store, or doctor. Looks like you are batting zero with

your assumptions.

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Gripper, this post is about a couple people who got caught claimjumping. I'm not the jury but I don't believe that people who grew up in their neck of the woods could not be aware of the crime they were committing, and even if they were not, we all know that ignorance is no excuse. The case that sawmill cited for you (and us), Tonopah and Salt Lake Mining V Tonopah County 125 Fed [C.C.D. Nev 1903], became necessary because a long time ago some people either lacked common sense or were indeed looking for a loophole. It had to be spelled out for them. sawmill was right on with what he wrote.

With all due respect, the question I have is, why was it necessary to name the case and spell it out for you?

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Guest Gripper

Looks like I'll get burned at the stake for heresy this time.

"With all due respect, the question I have is, why was it necessary to name the case and spell it out for you"

When someone says "you are wrong", do you ever say "prove it"? Well, guess what, that's what I do. Now I know that I weathered all of the insults for actual proof. This "Tonopah and Salt Lake Mining V Tonopah County 125 Fed [C.C.D. Nev 1903]" is good news for all of us Claim Holders. Dakota, it's possible that other readers would be interested in the case name and it being spelled out. I do not regret posing the question I did.

As it turns out, I was wrong in my statements. Read the previous sentence as many times as it takes for you to feel good. All it took was learning of a ruling in Nevada back in 1903 to answer the question. How could I have missed that one?!

Guess what, being wrong doesn't bother me. Wondering if I am right or wrong drives me crazy.

Good job Guys

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Yesterday, I was out at a friends house with a few locals, drinking beer and shooting the cannon. Turns out one of the gents I met was born here and knows many in the community. He knows the one kid involved and pretty much said that the kid knew that he was claim jumping and deserved as much punishment as the court could hand out.

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I'm sorry Gripper. It just seems really odd that this would have to be spelled out for a claim holder such as yourself. Claim jumping has been discussed many times on this forum and it boils down to common sense. sawmill knows more about the law than anyone I know.

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I would only add that there are very few accidental claim jumpers.

Most people out there in gold country especially, know it's wrong to

go onto a claim uninvited and take material out of it.

In many cases, laws are only a substitute for common sense.

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I hope I don't sound too ignorant but I won't know unless I ask.....As someone who is new and unfamiliar with the legalities I want to learn and abide by the rules.

So, where would I start?

Basically, where might one find information on claims or property already owned private or state? I have not seen one piece of consolidated information anywhere... Which makes me nervous... Since I'd rather not get shot at 29. :arrowheadsmiley: The quote 'what you don't know, won't hurt you' does not apply here... :head:

Kinney, Since NO One has answered your question I'll give it a stab.

Go to your local Regional BLM Records Office and Ask the Desk Personal for help in Finding the Master Title Plat Records for the Area your are interested in. I suggest that you Pick a Known Claim that your are familiar with personally. Maybe a friends if you don't have one yourself.

You should have the Claim Name, Claiment Name, the Sec Range Township numbers, It could help possiably to have the GPS Chord's also.

Get yourself a 7.5 deg copy of the USGS Topo Map that covers the Mine Area you are interested in. This will come in handy later when you get the COPY of the Location records and Maps from the BLM Files.

The Master Title Plats will show you on the righthand column the History of Who has Owned and Who owns the property now. It will also tell you the MINERAL Status of the land. This can mean that the Minerals have Been Withdrawn from location or what ever else the Mineral and Surface Status is.

I VERY Whole Heartedly suggest that you get a Copy of the Book By Terry Maley, I mentioned on page 4. From Location To Patent.

With those Books and the Handouts, Help from the BLM Office you will be In the KNOW of the Privilaged FEW andbe able to Stand Toe To Toe with the Best of the EXPERTS Here or in the Courts.

I read somewhere in the previous in the previous post that someone is Taking People out to Their Claim and showing them What is a Valid Calim Marking FOR HIRE.

Sir, I must give you WARNING that you CAN NOT Charge People Any type of MONEY for any Services you conduct on BLM Administerated Land WITHOUT Paying the BLM a %3 TAX on those services. Any Money you collect while on BLM Land has to have the %3 Sales Tax also.

An Additional Warnig to those who want to Keep Braging about their GOLD Finds and SALES, When you SELL the Gold you TAKE From The PUBLIC LAND you OWE the %3 sales tax.

I think that they are trying to use the Royality or Extraction Tax like for the Big Mining Co, to apply to all us Little People.

There was a Guy in Liberty, WA that found a 8+ oz Au Nugget while dredging about 100yds East of the Trunoff to Liberty on Swauk Creek,. He was on Withdrawn Placer Ground and When the local BLM WITCH found out She told him if he Sold the Nugget She would be there to Collect the TAX.

This is the Mentality the Greenys have is that ANY and ALL Rock, Mineral, Metal, Trees, Berrys, fire Wood, on and on Belong to The People not persons or Individuals. This has precedence in all the Vegatation Permits to Collect off of the Public Lands.

OH, I almost forgot Kinney to tell you about the BEST Book I have found on GPS and using TOPOs;

here is a bunch on Abes Books for A buck or 5 enjoy http://www.abebooks.com/book-search/isbn/9780898868234/

GPS Made Easy, 4th Ed., Lawrence Letham (book ISBN: 0-89886-823-8)

If you can get the 4th Ed as it has some Valuable material that was Shortened or Ommited in the 5th Ed.

When you can use all the different ways of Orienteering in this Book You will Never Get Lost Again or Even Misplaced.

Sincerely

Bill Adams

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OK here we go again! :grr01:

First ,the BLM lady is up in the night. There is no excise tax on locatable precious metals

that are mined and sold from public land. Any taxes are common income tax ,from sales

in excess of $600.00 per year. Only minerals such as gypsum,sand ,clay, gravel,etc are

subject to an excise tax. The BLM lady could face fraud charges,if she attempted to collect

any excise taxes on a nugget.

Second , charging the public for any activity on a federal mining claim,not directly related

to prospecting or mining that claim ,as per mining laws ,will void the claim period. You can

not charge the public for the surface use of an unpatented mining claim period. I suspect

that if contested,charging anyone to prospect or recover locatable minerals,without a lease,

or rental agreement , that meets federal approval could be a problem too. You are not

allowed to run any other concession or business ,other than the business of developing

and mining ,that specific mining claim,on a federal mining claim.

The 3 percent excise tax related to land use is for ,legitimate use of open public land by

permitted outfitters,guides,tour guides,and other commercial operator's ,that cater to the

public.

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Kinney, Since NO One has answered your question I'll give it a stab....

Thank you for you response Mr. Adams! I will read through it more thoroughly but wanted to make sure and say thank you first. Au Seeker suggested going to the county recorders office, after locating an area which seem like a step in the right direction. =) but seems like pretty touchy subject.

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:thumbsupanim Recorders office is the only place for accurate info. All filings(each and every one) from beginning to end for all claims begin...and end right there and 1,000% more accurate than BLM Lr2000 or GeoCom in every way. :brows: yep touchy topic as folks are in the current newbie stampede,and criminals taking advantage of the gold rush, to claimjump/trash/rob/rape and pilage my claims too-tons a au 2 u 2-John

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John, the reason I steered her in the direction of the BLM is to have her learn about the Master Title Plats. The VERY First thing that a Land Man has to do is establish who owns the mineral rights and are they Claimable. This can ONLY be done off the master title plats. You are correct in telling about the County Records being the Best Place to find the most Current Info on existing Claim Filings, But just because people file claims doesn't mean that they are VALID. When I worked as a land man in the '80s, I had to First establish IF the Minerals Were locatable on the claim I was researching. One example in Oregon's Willimate Valley is what were called the old O&C Railroad lands. These were given back to the Feds if passing through NF land and to the State if passing through State lands. BUT the Kicker was that the Minerals were Retained by the O&C trusts and only the Surface Rights were deeded back to the Feds and the State.

This info CANNOT be found in the County Records. It has to be traced back Off Master Title Plats.

For $hits and Giggles some of you need to go down to the BLM Office and File a Placer Claim onThe County Court House and/or the Land the BLM Office sits on. File by Sec,Range, Township and draw up the little map for them to see. You will be very supprised as to what happens. Then don't tell them and watch and wait and see how long it takes to get a response from either the county or feds. You Won't! They'll just keep taking your money and Declair the Claim Valid untill you stop paying. Oh yea!!!

And then Please Report back here with updates on your progress. Will be looking forward to the responses.

Sincerely

Bill Adams

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That poses a good question, Adams...

say you own minerals rights to a location which has surface rights deed to someone else. I'll take my house for a wild example...

I own deed to the "land" but know hat mineral rights were not part of the original purchase. I never went and got mineral rights from the original holder (my case would be the state, but we'll say it was NF).

If someone claimed the mineral rights on the property on which my (and several of my neighbors to make 20 ac.) house sits, can they then come and start digging up my yard to get at those minerals.

It's just one of those things I always wondered.

I actually did have mineral and water rights transferred to me as part of the purchase of my house. The lady at the title company when we signed had NEVER seen the deed written that way and was all ??? about it. Helps when you have a real estate and corporate lawyer in the family who tells you what to do to make sure the big ticket stuff for which you sign contracts is completely and wholy yours.

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GlennM, You brought up a Very tickelish question, The only way that the Mineral Holder can work on your land is IF they Put Up a Bond to FULLY restore the surface to it's premined condition, and that will depend on your Final Approvial. Of Course You as the Surface land owner would be entitled to some sort of compensation for easements and being Displaced from your Home/or atleast being deprived of your use of the land while the mining is going on. Plus they have to get you to Agree to all this also. Which give you some more leverage to get precentige poiints from the minning net profit.

This would also depend on the size of the tract of land and if the mining company is mining on adjacient land.

Bottom Line is You Have to Agree to them Taking Your Land and Depriving You of its use till they are done mining.

There are many remides in court to Stop them until they agree to your terms. And I know that this is a VERY Simplified explanation, but without Specific Facts in a case NO ONE can say for sure what will happen.

If you have 120ac and the mining co wants to mine on the Back 40 it get easier, But if you have 20ac and they want all of it to mine, there in a Bad Pinch to get anything done, and they would probably just Buy you out outright and eliminate the Problem.

It's not much different than having a mining claim on BLM/FS land They still have to Sastify the Surface Holder with restoration after the mining is done.

The Main Reason I brought up the Mineral Rights Problem was to make NewCommers Aware that they Need to Check with the MASTER TITLE PLATS at the BLM office to make sure that they are buying a Real Mining Claim. With Gold hitting its alltime high and unemployment in the DOUBLE DIGITS {no its not what the present admin says it is} there is a lot of folks who want to just make a living of $100 to 200 aday. And they don't know that This Can't Generally Be Done AnyWhere Constiently on a Small Scale day in and day out over time. AND yes There are Some of you out there that DO make a living off Gold, BUT I defy anyone of you to Show with prof that you make 2.5 dwt a day every day.

OH, darn Stepted In $hit Again, and me without my $hitKickers on.

Sincerely

Bill Adams

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Once and a while the BLM folks will catch an error and give you a notice. But usually not. I once filed a location notice thinking it was governed by the San Bernardino Base Meridian. I would have been correct a half mile away, but the point is BLM did catch the error and promptly sent out a certified letter. So amended papers were filed along with $10 and a polite mea culpa.

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Micro Nugget

I agree with your post,and have a little to add.

The BLM not checking for land status,or not contacting the claimant is an old

prospectors tale ,that has no merit.

Every claim filed goes through an adjudication process ,and the land status is

the first thing checked. It may take a little time ,but they will catch it .

Each claim has a case file,and it will be updated with land status checked,and

the date it was checked. If the claim is on withdrawn land,or land that the feds

don't own the mineral rights on, the claim will be declared null and void. The

claimant will receive notice to that effect.

There is a reason that they wait . If they issue a claim number ,when they collect

the fees,then the fees have been earned. Then if they find a flaw later while

adjudicating the claim,it is simply declared null and void,and they can retain the

fees. If like in your case ,that the problem has a remedy or cure,then they just

notify the claimant ,so the claimant can resolve the issue.

I know one spot of ground ,where the railroad owns the minerals. It has been

claimed several times,over and over. Each time a claim number is issued and

in a month or two it is declared null and void. If any one of those claimants had

of checked the status,they would have found a stack of case files,and the reason

they were all void. One of them could have saved himself a big fine and trespass

charges too. Seems that the BLM gets pretty upset when someone starts mining

withdrawn mineral land! Each and every one of those actions regarding that

ground can be found on LR2000.

To put it simple,when we give a newbie advice to check if the land is open,it means

to check not just for other claims,but to check all land status issues. Also regarding

county records. They are good for spotting new claims ,but most times the county

has no record of BLM voiding a claim for quite a while . Nor do they have records

of current BLM legal actions on a claim,or pending actions. The BLM is the only

source for current claim validity. The county is only aware of this information after

the smoke has settled,or after being notified by the BLM. Also those land status

maps can change at any time, they are just a general idea of what the status really

is. The only one that knows for sure is the BLM state office,and the district office,if

the district office is not sure ,they can contact the state office.

Any questions about the validity of a claim,or if it is open or closed ,or legal land

status should be addressed to the BLM period.

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Sawmill, it that the property at Foot's Crossing, at the mouth of Kanaka Creek. I was the one in 1980 who researched and found that the "Old Blue Mule" claim was open and staked it. It was the claim that grubstaked me to go to Peru in '81. There were people comming all the time to tell us that we had to leave "Their Claim" and some had to be removed by the Sherrif after they threatened deadly force to run us off. This was my first Case with the BLM Master Title Plats, as I had to go to Sacromento and get the Owner's Address and who Really Owned the land. There were a lot of Hear Say Rummers but NO concreat paperwork except in the BLM. Looking up the info on that Railroad Land lead me to the other Open Ground that was avaiable at that time. I contacted the Railroads Rep. and got the facts straight from the Horses Mouth. There were times in the Past that that Sec was Leased out for exclusive rights, but none at the time I was there. Later I heard that someone Leased the land and run everyone else off. They had an accident and didn't have anyone there to help, and had to go 12mi to the country store to phone for help. I personally ALWAYS allowed folks to pan or dredge on my claims, under the Strict Condition that I was Shown and Told what and how much they took out. It was quicker for me to let them do that than prospect everywhere and most of the time the weekenders didn't get much anyway. I leared more about the Rivers Paystreaks that way an made a decent living that summer and the next, Plus I had people to talk to and they returned the kindness by leaving me all their leftover Grub. UM UM GOOD. And it kept a atmosphere of peace and quit on the river, which I enjoyed very much. I didn't have to Play Dog In the Manger and be hypervigilant, had enough of that $hit in 'Nam.

BA

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Ah yes, the infamous Kanaka Creek!

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Lost Adams

No the land I am talking about is in Arizona. Arizona is littered with railroad

land. Also Arizona has lots of old homestead and private land that has been

sold or traded back to the BLM and Forest Service. Some of this land is real

tricky,because the government failed to gain the mineral rights with the trades,

or purchase. A lot of the railroad land was sold or traded back to the government,

but the railroad retained the mineral rights on some of it too.

In reality it is a mess to sort out,and the only records ,are with the BLM or DOI.

This is one reason I always say to work with the local BLM district office when

staking or filing a claim. I always insist on discussing all details with the BLM

geologist or minerals officer. These guys,or gals can save you a lot of trouble

and money. I never rely on information from the people at the front desk either.

I used to do this stuff for mining companies in the 60's. Back then all we had was

the County recorders office,or sit and dig through old government files. Back then

assessment work and assessment records was the only way to find out if a claim

was abandoned or valid. No computers ,instant files ,or fancy stuff like now.Back

then the FS and BLM didn't have a clue about who owned a claim unless it was

patented,or involved in some legal action. This is one reason I get a little hot when

folks ,can't be bothered to research an area now,before playing gold miner. Hell it

is a piece of cake now,to find this stuff,and there is no excuse to be where you are

not supposed to be.

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