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I am thinking again...

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Please don't get the forum involved in funneling money to PLP Bill. They are clueless. Letter writing campaigns would be much more effective and garner more positive publicity than all this court BS that only enriches lawyers. My opinion. God Bless

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Please don't get the forum involved in funneling money to PLP Bill. They are clueless. Letter writing campaigns would be much more effective and garner more positive publicity than all this court BS that only enriches lawyers. My opinion. God Bless

So then what other options are there then helping the few already helping us? I see folks willing to criticize, but never offering a better solution. If we continue to fight each other we will soon find ourselves watching old Youtube videos about "back when"

I am not being augmentative at all here, but if the folks currently trying to protect our rights are not good enough or clueless do you have a solution? A better way of doing it?

We are rapidly losing our rights and sitting on our hands while refusing to get involved somehow has become unacceptable to me.

I do support PLP and WMA and am happy to do so....

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Bill, I support and share your desire to conserve "our" rights. I think we need to go a different route than trying to beat them at their game. We can't win in the courts. We need the support of the greater public - and we need the money from the major equipment manufaturers and retailers to achieve that. Individual gold prospectors - even 50,000 of them will not change anything - period. Want to make a difference? Start writing letters to your local and state reps, and the people that make your equipment. Keep your MONEY in your pocket.

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Hi Terry,

From what I see education and addressing representatives is part of what is being done by these organizations and I do indeed write letters. But letters just isn't enough anymore and without donating money to those willing to try to help educate the public and work with/against political issues and proposed laws what is left to us?

Are you willing to take this on yourself? If so where will funding for education come from and who will work to get laws changed to supply educational materials to public institutions? Who will lobby to help make mining and land use rights a part of public schools education agenda? I indeed agree with your thoughts, but there is more to it I feel....

Now if as an individual I can support a organisation(s) willing to take these things on as well as listen to my ideas isn't this exactly what you are talking about? If not 100% for their methods stand to help not belittle their efforts I think is much more constructive in the long run.

This is exactly what they are doing and then some and if I or you have a better idea on how to do or not do something, join and work with these folks to make some changes.

Beating them at their on game is exactly what needs to be done. No game can be won by not showing up to play in my opinion. Now beating them at their own game wins the ongoing battle already in progress and education wins the game in the future.

The fight is upon us NOW and waiting for better education is another step I fully agree, but we must face the fact those that wish to ban us from public land use are active RIGHT NOW in stripping out rights and again waiting for any period of time now is past I think.

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Guest Gripper

Soon everyone in california will feel the pain of the new travel management plans. I am already blacked out pissed. This sht just dropped on the stanislaus NF and I am angry. Wait till you see the map Does anyone else care?

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Hi All,

I am just so frustrated and really looking for someway to help save our own butts and likelihoods (or hobby) from this ongoing assult by our own Government. Not smart enough to try anything on my own and not able to even come up with a bunch of cash to help, but willing to give what I can so at least I am helping.

I guess the hardest part for me anyway is every time I find someone that I feel comfortable donating to and mention it I am instantly informed they are now worthy of my hard earned cash with now real information as to why...

I just want to help and it seems that our section of the population is more content bickering among ourselves and slamming the few outfits that appear to be trying to help.

At first it was that the PLP would not share financial info... Now they have and at a public forum. Still I keep hearing I am throwing my money and support the wrong way and same is said about the WMA, but no one will stand up and say what the exact reason is? WHY if it is that important not to support these folks lets get it out in the open where we and they can respond?

This can't be fixed by being silent or hoping it will just be okay...

If these organizations are not where our help should be focused we need to hear solid facts as to why! How can anything get done if issues are not hashed out and a better focus put on success instead of not helping one outfit or another just because someone said they suck without sharing info as to why and what they have done to gain a crappy reputation in the first place.

If there are better ideas out there we really need them NOW!

It is time to wake up and do SOMETHING or kiss everything we do and live for goodbye....

I have no fear of cracking the egg here and dad gummit if you have reasons why some of these organizations are not trustworthy to do what they are promising lay it out for all of us.

Not trying to start flame wars or antagonize anyone, just wanting facts and a direction.....

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Bill I am totaly with you we have the same problems here in Canada we have people here who are trying to save the planet for political gain,personal gain and some who really care,then we have the quaders who soup there machines with big mud tires go up into our pristene alpine meadows tear around see if they can get through and tear the hell out of these pristene Spagnum bogs,word spreads next thing everybody is out there destroying it,theseare the people that ruin it for everybody,and now we get overregulated to death.. Same thing at Quartzite if you have 100,000 people go there a year and don't cover up their dig holes next thing it looks like a boming range best solution i guess is police ourselvs and others we see leaving a mess.. Then there is the lil bugs and plants..... Recreation is a necesary part of our life and is BIG MONEY BUISNESS (MONEY TALKS AND DUNG WALKS) oviously these wanna be do gooders have $ backing them plus political gainers.. What we need is an orginazation who the head of does it for the love it not for any kind of personal gain. Any company that makes OHVs fishing,boating,mining,Minelab,Fisher and the list go on and on can these companys all get on the band wagon or not they are the ones who are going to loose the bucks I t seems these people are really busy putting sectors of our workers out of work with no consideration as to what is going to happen to them or the next generation when everything gets banned are we beggining to get like N Korea democretic sheep dictatorship.. I think that getting big corporations behind is the and thats where the $$$$$$are Just being my Radical self RODD Go Bill Go

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I think it is grand, that there are people concerned about our right to use our public lands responsibly. I share those concerns. I also have other concerns. Much like a union member whose monthly dues and membership fees go to many different uses, I want to know what those uses are. I want to know the money and time I am devoting to an organization is benefiting me just as much as the President, Secretary and Treasurer. A form that tells me how much the organization took in and how much they spent, tells me nothing.

I want to be assured that my money and time is being used in the most advantageous and efficacious way. I want to know that my message is being broadcast in a positive and powerful way that connects with Americans. I want to see the educational syllabus, written action materials, hands-on programs for school children, outreach programs to community and state leaders, and how much time and money is being spent in those areas as opposed to lawyers, travel, lodging, meals, and “petty cash.” What were the mailing costs? Phone costs?

I gave PLP $500.00 two-years ago. I heard Mr. Hobbs speak out at Stanton, over a year ago now, and frankly I’m disappointed. As a businessman and gold prospector with “skin in the game,” I want transparency, better leadership and administration, a clear vision, and realistic goals and strategies before I donate another dime to any organization that is pledging to protect my rights as a gold prospector.

Whether I agree with others or not, I still respect anything and everything they do that honestly and positively impacts my right to run a business or mine the earth for minerals

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Let's start at the beginning. Perhaps we, as "Recreational Prospectors" need to establish an identity, a definition of that identity and some goals. Once "we" can decide on that, perhaps we can become a cohesive group with a little clout and not have to try to fit in with organizations which have similar but different agendas and goals.

As you may know, the BLM currently does not recognize "Recreational Prospectors".

I'm thinking that it wouldn't take much to get the word out by contacting the various prospecting and mining clubs. I have no doubt that the members of these clubs have the same thoughts and fears as we do. They see what is happening and are concerned, as we all are.

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This might work...

National Association Of Rock Collectors & Recreational Prospectors

Q: What is a "rock collector"?

A: A rock collector is anyone who is interested in collecting rocks and minerals.

Q: What is a "recreational prospector"?

A: A recreational prospector is anyone who is interested in finding rocks and minerals as a form of recreation. This includes rock collectors, prospectors, small scale miners and anyone who believes that Americans should maintain the right to be able to go out, explore nature and collect these things on public lands.

Q: What is the difference between a rock collector and a recreational prospector?

A: There is none.

Q: Why do we need an organization?

A:.Simply put, because some people, for one reason or another, think Americans shouldn't have the right to go out and collect rocks and minerals on public lands. Some organizations and govenment agencies are trying to take away this right by banning these activities or limiting public access to public lands. In many cases they have succeeded.

Q: WTF??? Why didn't I know that this was happening?

A: Because like us, you thought it was a God given right protected by the US Constitution.

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I'm sure the WMA can use some $$ so could the Blue Ribbon Coalition (http://www.sharetrails.org/ ), they both show appreciation to their supporters

Just quoting myself....... I think WMA is on the right track, but as of yet have not donated to them...... BRC has received my cash more than once....

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Well to start with I'm from Montana.

I support the Montanans for Multiple Use (MMU)

I have supported and will in the future support the fight for our cause by whom ever takes up the cause.

I've supported the McCracken 49er's group

Eastern Organ Miners Assoc and the Waldo Mining District.

PLP and others

Yes I have been chastised for donating to some of these

Writing letters is less effective than what these groups are doing, but it does help.

Some of these offer up some great prizes to help raise funds for their efforts.

One of the above is offering up 1/2 pound of gold as top prize.

Many people and businesses donate to these groups to support the cause, they need all the support they can get.

What happens in CA now will affect me in MT and those in OR, WA, ID, and so on, It's the trickle down effect.

Some have critized these groups but have not offered up an alternative solution.

Sometimes I don't agree with how they do things or spend their funds, but I do support their cause

Sitting back and complaining doesn't do us any good.

It's a tough fight and no one group can do it all, No one group is perfect and No one person is perfect, but at least they are in the fight.

A membership, a book of raffle tickets, or just donating a few dollars will help the cause.

After were gone, the next weakest link, be it the hunter, fisherman, ATV riders, Loggers, Cattleman, will fight and some of them are now fighting. There are those who want all these groups off federal land.

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I thank El Dorado for the plug, but money isn't the only thing that is needed by us right now. If you "have skin in the game" but don't feel like giving any hard earned money away, you can help on other levels for the California fight. We are trying to start a grass roots movement here in CA (and eventually everywhere else, but there is only so much a handful of miners can do at one time).

So if you don't want to give money (because you won't know where it goes), I have a plan for you: WMA needs to contact ALL the claim/property owners of mining claims in California (who live in other states) that have "skin in the game". Looking at the numbers of miners/claims, that list alone represents about 50,000 claims and owners all over the US. I, myself have decided to tackle CA and there are miners coming out of the woodwork daily offering to help me out on the CA front. Rather than sending an impersonal letter, we are picking up the phone and calling every miner on the phone to see if they want to be a part of the movement. This isn't one of those "send in the money and watch what happens" kind of thing. We plan on getting EVERYONE involved. Because if EVERYONE is not involved, this thing is going away in a heartbeat. So, I ask you "how important is it to you to ensure that CA does NOT throw the miners off the river?" As everyone knows, CA is the bleeding edge of everything.

So if you want to get "personally" involved in this fight, we have a spot for you- whether or not you send money.

We need miners/prospectors who:

who want to help with legal research

who want to help with CEQA research

who want to help with administrative law research

who have scientific or engineering background

who want to help with EIR research

who want to help with endangered species research

who want to reach out and contact ALL CA claim holders in THEIR own state.

who want to help with the grass roots organizing of this thing

who want to help by going to Mining shows representing WMA

who want to help by helping us organize historical mining exhibits (showing the correlation between mining & history)

who want to help us by sending in photos of garbage being collected, photos of dredges in beautiful locations, photos of mining camps- any kind of photo which shows the TRUE miner lifestyle (so the public can recognize that we respect our environment)

who want to help us create a website which is an advocate for the small mining/prospecting lifestyle

who want to help us organize local events promoting our lifestyle

who want to help us with our media campaign

who want to help us make our wordpress site better

ETC .....

There is a million positive things a bunch of angry, frustrated miners can do to turn this thing around. Step up and pitch in and join the rest of us who are fighting (and literally spending 16 hours a day) for ALL of our mining rights. I cannot promise you we will win, but either way it goes, you can have the satisfaction of saying you fought to the bitter end to turn it around.

I've put my money where my mouth is- All of the principals of WMA have at a mininum donated over $1000 each in cash, and time just to get this thing started. Personally, I may have found a total of 4 oz's in my mining career. That isn't much of a return to be spending the amount of time and money on this that I have. I know for a fact that there are a large portion of the pro mining industry who make a pretty good living doing this (more than my measly 4oz) and it is a shame that I am fighting THEIR fight. I do it because I am passionate about it, and it pisses me off to no end that we are being run off our claims, based on NOTHING! Nothing but opinions of people who have NO CLUE about dredging. Most of our detractors HAVE NEVER SEEN AN OPERATING DREDGE- and I guess that makes them experts.

(Now remember to breath...... calm down......calm down....) So the point is, I am sure there are more than a few of you guys who have made a few more bucks at this than I have, and yet you are watching me work from the sidelines. NOW IS YOUR TIME TO STEP UP AND HELP OUT- if it doesn't happen now, this whole thing is going down in a flaming plie of *******.

Stop by the website, read it and see if what we are talking about resonates with you. If it does and you want to have a voice in where this thing goes, we want you on board. If you "just want to be on the email list" to watch us do your work, so be it. Maybe some day you can buy each of us a beer.

As a side note, WMA is not a non-profit, because we want to be able to lobby (someday). So if you feel like donating to some organization where you can get a tax deduction, I highly recommend PLP. Like him or not, Jerry is busting his ass on a lot of associated things and he needs all the support he can get. You will notice that there are NO ads on our site. We don't sell anything (other than bumper stickers) and we are working on a shoe string budget. We planned it that way as we want to be straight up with everyone.

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Howdy Rick and thanks for your input and I think that was quite a pep talk, hopefully more folks will start getting involved before it is too late. I would think folks would welcome the chance to get more involved to save what we love and what is also a very necessary industry, but allot of folks seem more content just to not get involved...

What would have happened in no one wanted to get involved to make America a free country way back when?

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Rick regarding this: ...."who want to reach out and contact ALL CA claim holders in THEIR own state"......is it possible for

you to publish a list of other states where CA claim holders live and then folks in those states could step up to the plate

and volunteer....

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Guest Gripper


I respect your gusto. Your writeup on suction dredging for gold is so well done that you have my unending support. I will be handing this out to USFS and BLM officials in my area. Bill, thanks for this place to aire our thoughts (greifs) and your support. I know you arn't in this senseless state of CA but you still care. Jerry Hobbs, I have supported your outfit and its mining rights mission and I appreciate the time you are now taking to post on this website. Terry, mining isn't about lesbians or erections, so what is your purpose?

USFS travel management plan: Most people who enjoy public access didn't give a rats ass when the dredging ban shut us down. But all of the sudden, fishermen, bear hunters, upland game hunters, ATV users, offroaders, etc. just got the taste slapped out of their mouth by the same force that has abused our rights to mine. NOW, these other interests are pissed off too. FACT: we all need to band together at this point to form one common voice to beat back this anti-publicusage legislation.

Who can we unit under? PLP, Blue Ribbon, or what?


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...Terry, mining isn't about lesbians or erections, so what is your purpose?..

"Purpose?" I don't need no steen-king "purpose!" LOL!

Seriously Brian, this ain't my first rodeo. I gave my $500.00 at the door. I have every right to say I'm not happy with the effort or the accounting so far. I am also not happy with the defensiveness (instead of openness) when questions are asked about how the funding is being used. At this point I am not convinced that my donation to PLP was used as well as it could have been.

I write letters to my National and State representatives every month, outlining the jobs, state/local taxes, and the tourist dollars Arizona Gold Adventures Inc. generates weekly - and how the environmentalists would shut me and those jobs down in a heartbeat if we allow them to. You want your money wasted, well, that is your call.

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And just let me add this, if you notice we are ALL sharing ideas here as well as pointing out what we see as needing improvement and this is good!

Also I feel we have several good outfits taking up the battle for all of us and improving through participation is infinitely better than just pissing and moaning about how they are doing it.

Folks if there is something we would like to change about a particular operation contact them and volunteer your services to help make it better.

We are out of time for bickering among ourselves about where my few dollars has gone when it is obvious the majority of the work is in our favor!

I also contribute, but do not feel I need a pat on the butt and an atta boy for every dollar spent and would rather see action which I am indeed seeing.

Again I say if we are unhappy and have a better idea get up, join the fight from a physical standpoint with your ideas from within the organization of your choosing and make a difference!

Worrying about the small stuff and allowing it to make you bitter is like donating nails to build a church and then pouting over no one telling you where they were used, the church was still built right? Think about it.

Put your mouth and physical effort where your money is cause we need your help!

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Guest Gripper


I was a bit rude in how I responded to your posting. Sorry. Maybe you are still thinking the situation doesn't warrant all the soldiers possible. Well where I live, they just closed down over 90% of the roads until April 15, and permanantly shut down many important spur roads that lead down to the creeks. This new development in the loss of rights is bigger than losing the dredges.

Last friday I ordered a high banker that I will get tommorow. I have been putting together a plan to work a section of a friends claim for quite some time. The purchase of the highbanker was the last step in my process. It is not easy for me to put that kind of money together. Well, long story short, after site prepping last saturday I returned to my truck to find a warning from a usfs ranger saying that I am now on a closed road. It came with a map that shows most of the district closed, most of it seasonaly. This road was a critical part of my plan, making it more or less impossible. Now I have to figure out where to put this 3000 dollar high banker in a forest where all the roads are closed.

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Hi Gripper. I feel your pain. Seasonal road closures, within reason, are to be expected. There are those who will tear up a muddy road making a bad situation for everyone. Permanent closures have us all up in arms and there was a recent court case mentioned on this forum which gives people ammunition to fight road closures. The problem, as I see it, is the fact that this is even necesssary.

Who are the people who are instigating these closures? What gives them the right and what is their reasoning?

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