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Hi All,

I have heard both good and bad about the PLP http://plp1.org/home.html , but to be honest I know nothing about them for the most part other than some members here not caring for them....

Why is this?

Are they not doing as they say at their site or is it something else?

Seems like we need all the help we can get?

Would really like some facts as to why there are issues with them not just opinion, thanks.

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One major issue involved with dredging in California. PLP and their lawyer decided to attempt to sue the Federal Government even though this was going against extremely good advice. The powers in PLP ignored that advice and tried to take the Government to task anyway. The result was the case being kicked out of court. Not just any kick, but one with prejudice. That means you screwed up so bad you can NEVER bring it back up in the federal legal system. That is just one example that many contributed hard earned money for naught.

On a personal note, I spent time and personal money to help successfully raise money for the PLP, selling raffle tickets, donating jewelry to the raffle, going to the capitol....... I did it because I believed it was the thing to do, but not once did I ever even get a thank you. We even held a mid winter miners pow wow in Oregon with the sole purpose of raising money for the PLP. $2200 was raised from many people that could barely afford the gas to get there. PLP never even said thanks. Not looking for recognition, but a thanks would be great.

I hope Hoser rings in with one of his now famous one-liners

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OK, here's an interesting situation...Yesterday (1/14/12) I read a few comments sort of anti-PLP on the forum and immediately got a plea for donation to it from the PR guy from PLP...I somehow thought the comments on the forum and the plea for donation were somehow oddly connected....So I wrote to him a quick note, copied here:

"I did join and donate previously, but now I'm reading some disturbing news about PLP ... I'd like to see online a record of income and expense ... Where and to whom is the the $$$ going? Thank you."

Well I immediately got a sort of sh*t storm from both the PR guy and the President of PLP shown here:

"First of all, the funding we get is minimal compared to what PLP gets involved in the legal field. We are fighting organizations and the government with millions and even billions of dollars with what most would consider chump change.

Some of the expenses we have are attorney fees for 6 law suits we are involved to protect the miners rights. 4 against the Ca. Dept of Fish and Game on a dredging moratorium, 1 against the US Forest Service for road closures which affect the whole western united states and 1 in the state of Washington on there denial of special use permits for extended dredging seasons. We write extensive comments on many other issues and assist in resolveing individual problems across the whole country, including Arizona.

Some of our expenses are for attorney fees, legal research, Westlaw alone is $1400 a month, mailing costs, telephones, accountant and travel expenses all over the country to make GPAA gold shows to help raise funds to fight these issues. It is no easy chore and certainly a thankless job.

All of the people are volunteers and only get their travel expense paid and all of them have at one time or another spent their own money to complete some task for PLP. They do not deserve unfounded accusations. Those making the accusations should get off their dead ass and start their own fight if they are not pleased with what the percieve of PLP.

I hope I have addressed some of your concerns and hope you take me up on my invitation to visit us. Feel free to call me if you wish to discuss this issue further.

Jerry Hobbs

President

Public Lands for the People

7194 Conejo Dr.

San Bernardino Ca. 92404

909-889-3039

--- On Sat, 1/14/12, Gary Goldberg <garyngoldberg@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Gary Goldberg <garyngoldberg@yahoo.com>

Subject: Fw: PLP Membership Application Files

To: "Jerry Hobbs" <jerhobbs2@verizon.net>

Date: Saturday, January 14, 2012, 10:05 AM

Jerry,

You need to read this and maybe address it.

Gary Goldberg"

So then I got this:

Ron,

I am extremely concerned about your email regarding PLP's ethical conduct regarding funds.

I would ask that you provide me with your source of these allegations as well as any documents containing disparaging remarks.

Without providing me without the requested information, I will have to request that you cease and desist from spreading slanderous rumors.

I await your reply.

Gary Goldberg

Director, Public Relations"

So I answered this last email which seemed somehow threatening by saying this to them:

Geez, Gary...You guys are be awfully over reactive to a simple request...First of all, remember, I am a supporter, donator and member of PLP so the tone of your last email doesn't sit well with me...Second, I have not spread a single word about PLP anywhere, other than to my credit card when I donated...Third, I don't take well to being threatened.... So you don't have to worry about being bothered by me in the form of donation or anything else, other than perhaps sharing the contents of your and Jerry's emails to me verbatim, to those who apparently give more of a rats ass about this than I do. Chill, Dude! Ron

So, finally, Gary responded with a more concilatory note:

Ron,

I apologize if you interpreted my e-mail as threatening or accusatory in any way. That was NOT my intention at all. This was just shocking to hear, as I had never heard an unkind word about the countless hours PLP Board Members put in to help restore everyone's Rights to utilize the Outdoors. It is a THANKLESS JOB, but one we do for the love of the outdoors, our rights, and our freedoms. Rest assured that we do this all UNPAID and without ANY compensation at all.

Sure we get reimbursed for some out of pocket expenses, such as airfare tickets to travel to the GPAA Gold Shows far from California, Hotel costs while traveling to the Gold Shows, some of our out of pocket Postage expenses, but I can assure you, we are very frugal with our funds.

For example, many of us travel to various GPAA Gold Shows utilizing our own vehicles and gas, without reimbursement, when we have to travel to a GPAA show that is accessible only by air travel, we only send One (1) representative. The majority of our funds are utilized to bear the cost of Litigation which is a very expensive process. We have a number of current lawsuits ongoing at present and the costs are incredibly high. Unfortunately, lawyers do not work for FREE and we need to have the BEST LAWYER possible.

I hope you will accept my apology and return to being a PLP Member once again. I admit, I tend to get a little to emotional when someone seems to be questioning my integrity or the integrity of the Non-Profit Organization I have chosen to devote my efforts to. As such, it would be really helpful to know what things you have read and where they originated from.

As Public Relations Director for PLP, I would like to address the source of these allegations, not for the purpose of revenge, but so I may correct this person(s)'s mis-information. I hope you will consider my request so I can try to "nip it in the bud", so to speak.

Please feel free to call me so I can apologize to you over the phone. (909) 237-0821

Sincerely and Respectfully,

Gary Goldberg

Director, Public Relations

PLP Board Member

So that's it, and I still don't have a clue what's good or perhaps bad about PLP...I have been a supporter of the PLP because I thought it was the on organization working for our land and prospecting rights...I sure wish I knew what's going on here...I'm very confused ... Cheers, Yer Unc in the Dubyah

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For what it's worth this is what a nonprofit organization much disclose to anyone that requests the information according to the IRS.

I have donated to the PLP for several years and Ron's post is a little disturbing to me, it is in their best interest to disclose how the funds are use, it will gain more support from the general public and well as quiet the fears of anyone in doubt as long as there is nothing wrong with how the funds are used.

Skip

http://www.irs.gov/c...=135008,00.html

Public Disclosure and Availability of Exempt Organizations Returns and Applications: Documents Subject to Public Disclosure

What tax documents must an exempt organization make available for public inspection and copying?

An exempt organization must make available for public inspection its exemption application. An exemption application includes the Form 1023 (for organizations recognized as exempt under Internal Revenue Code section 501©(3)), Form 1024 (for organizations recognized as exempt under most other paragraphs of section 501©), or the letter submitted under the paragraphs for which no form is prescribed, together with supporting documents and any letter or document issued by the IRS concerning the application. A political organization exempt from taxation under section 527(a) must make available for public inspection and copying its notice of status, Form 8871.

In addition, an exempt organization must make available for public inspection and copying its annual return. Such returns include Form 990 , Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax, Form 990-EZ , Short Form Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax,Form 990-PF, Return of Private Foundation, Form 990-BL , Information and Initial Excise Tax Return for Black Lung Benefit Trusts and Certain Related Persons, and the Form 1065 , U.S. Partnership Return of Income.

A section 501©(3) organization must make available for public inspection and copying any Form 990-T, Exempt Organization Business Income Tax Return, filed after August 17, 2006. Returns must be available for a three-year period beginning with the due date of the return (including any extension of time for filing). For this purpose, the return includes any schedules, attachments, or supporting documents that relate to the imposition of tax on the unrelated business income of the charity. See Public Inspection and Disclosure of Form 990-T for more information.

An exempt organization is not required to disclose Schedule K-1 of Form 1065 or Schedule A of Form 990-BL. With the exception of private foundations, an exempt organization is not required to disclose the name and address of any contributor to the organization.

A political organization exempt from taxation under section 527(a) must make available for inspection and copying its report of contributions and expenditures on Form 8872, Political Organization Report of Contributions and Expenditures. However, such organization is not required to make available its return on Form 1120-POL, U.S. Income Tax Return for Certain Political Organizations.

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ANy non-profit that balks at a basic request for written breakdown of how funds received by same -- are spent-- is either highly unprofessional or hiding something...

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They should respond with a link on a web page that shows you how all their money is being spent. If they dont that immediately sends up red flags in my book.

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Hi gang, I just got a phone call from Jerry Hobbs and he is pretty concerned about what is being said here. He doesn't want to spend the money to join the website just to make a response, so he asked me if I would telegraph his response to you guys. Here are his emails to me:

Date: Sunday, January 15, 2012, 3:45 PM

Ron, Paul and Gary

I attempted to repy to the post on nuggetshooter, it said I

could not reply and I am not that computer savy. If some one

wants to post this I have no objection.

I know Steve (El Dorado) I knew he was not happy with us but

did not kow why and he has made himself clear on his post.

Not to aliennate him but he is in error on the Lawsuit

against the Federal Government on suction dredging. PLP did

sue in Federal Court but sued the Ca. Dept of Fish on and

Game on SB 670 not the feds. and we were dismissed but for:

The Judge stated that we had no redresability, meaning that

if he ruled in our favor on SB 670 we still could not dredge

because of the Injunction of Judge Roesch against the DFG

not to issue any permits. We filed in Federal Court because

it is a federal question on prohibiting a miner from

acquiring his minerals. Also a violation of the Federal

Supremacy Clause and the 5th and 14th amendment of the

Federal Constitution..

Since, we have refiled in a state court, where the Federal

Judge told us to. We still had to get rid of the Injuction

because in order to sue on a law you must have harm. The

harm was from the Injuction and not from SB 670 and AB 120.

We got the injunction reversed on the 28th of Dec. 2011 and

now have hearing for our own preliminary Injunction in a

State Court in San Bernardion, Ca. on Feb. 22, 2012. against

SB 670 and AB 120.

Hopefully we will prevail there

Jerry

(Also)

I forgot to address this in my last

email but feel it is important.\

PLP Is a 501 c-3 non profit organization and as such can

not lobby by law. We have and are currently working with

people who do lobby. Members and myself of PLP have written

letters and legal comments to agencies and legislators and

we have testified on behalf of teh miners before the Ca.

State Senate and the State Assembly several times on several

issues and we will continue to do so.

I hope I have made clear why we have not lobbied

Jerry

---- So those are his responses---

another comment he made to me is if somone wants to see his books, he welcomes it, but he'd rather you come to his monthly meeting.

Remember I am just the messenger.

I am not necessarily the guy to get in the middle of this discussion, because my grasp of mining law is somewhere between slim and None (and slim just.....). However, since a lot of guys who should know better (many of the dredge equipment manufacturers and other icons of the industry) support Jerry and his organization, a thinking man would believe that THOSE PEOPLE should know better than to support someone who doesn't have their livelyhood's best interest at stake.

As I have stated before in another thread, if there are people who think Jerry isn't doing a good enough job, and think they can do a better job representing the miners (on what appears to be a bake-sale budget) GO FOR IT! In all my limited interactions with Jerry, he has always been up front and honest with me and the Keene's will vouch for him too.

What ires me is that why do we need to be fighting each other on this stuff? If you have a better attorney who can do a better job for the same miniscule amount of money Jerry does it on (or perhaps a large fortune you want to donate for the cause), GET BUSY ON IT! If you don't have a better way, but still want to bitch, please consider keeping it to yourself and off the forums, because your acidic remarks don't help with what little funding and representation we currently have.

My $0.02 FWIW

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What "ires" me, is that not ONE time, has Mr. Hobbs or his organization bothered to tell or show us where the money has gone, and what PLP's relation is to the Lawyers getting paid with our money. If they are using our money for "travel to GPAA shows," what else are they doing with it?

Why Hasn't Pat Keene, ICMJ, the GPAA - or any other Corporate "Sponsor" demanded disclosure?

Where are the printed materials and educational fact sheets supporting our positions?

Where are the educational and outreach programs being implemented?

ARE there any records?

Answer THOSE questions and I have a dozen more..

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Hi gang, I just got a phone call from Jerry Hobbs and he is pretty concerned about what is being said here. He doesn't want to spend the money to join the website just to make a response, so he asked me if I would telegraph his response to you guys. Here are his emails to me:

Joining this site is 100% free and always has been, subscriptions are available and subscribing to the site is up to the individual.....

He can still read, post, etc.... Free!

I think input from the horse's mouth would be very welcome and needed as we the public and miners if we are to support any organization need answers sometimes and just ignoring some of the issues brought up at the major forums can backfire when folks are simply looking for answers before offering support.

Some of this stuff can seem heated or rude, but often miners and prospectors simply communicate this way.

BUT fueding abonst ourselves and eating our own will surly lead to extintion.....

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Bill- when I first came to the site, the way I read it was you cannot post unless you support the site with a monetary contribution- which I didn't mind doing as you are providing a great service. My guess is Jerry read it the same way and apprently he is working from a shoestring budget and didn't want to pay to respond. I will tell him he can post and I am sure he will respond as the accusations have him very upset. And it will pull me out of the middle of this thing as it isn't really my fight.

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Bill- when I first came to the site, the way I read it was you cannot post unless you support the site with a monetary contribution- which I didn't mind doing as you are providing a great service. My guess is Jerry read it the same way and apprently he is working from a shoestring budget and didn't want to pay to respond. I will tell him he can post and I am sure he will respond as the accusations have him very upset. And it will pull me out of the middle of this thing as it isn't really my fight.

Yes registration is totally free, you just have to be registered before you can post. The subscription option is simply for those that want to contribute. Everyone is welcome here subscribed or not.....

I agree he need to address this and once the folks out here in the mining community have seen and heard what is really going on and how the PLP is working in our favor things should smooth out and the money will likely began flowing in from some of these very folks.

The PLP has been asked about and accused of this and that for several years on many forums with no one from the organization responding with a cool temper and level head to address the issues and over time this can backfire support wise in m humble opinion.

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The letter below is what I sent to Uncle Ron. In the first Paragraph I invited him to review our records and that applies to anyone who would like to view them and or copy them. . I know that a trip to LA to view them is a chore for many however I don't think it is wise to post them on the internet for the whole world to review, especially the Karuk and the enviros. We are not trying to keep them from the miners who wish to see them. We have had guests that are not board members come to the board and look at them. Printing them and sending them out is just another cost the the miners need not fund. Below I have listed some of our expenses.

One man on the forum felt that we should not be paying expenses for our board members to go to the GPAA show. Let me just say this, we run the GPAA Raffle and the PLP Raffle and if it were not for that PLP would not have the money to sue on these issue. Most of our funding comes from those shows and that is above and beyond the travel expeses. The board members that go on the trips, unless very close to home, go alone and they either have to take off work to do it or close there business doors. I don't think they can be expected to pay their own expense to places like Maine, So. Carolina, Oklahoma, Texas or Montana.

We all work hard to protect the miners right and we are dedicated to do so. We are human and we have made mistakes but we try to rectify them so we would really appreciate any help from the people out there that care about their right to prospect and mine or even recreate on our public Lands. We do work with others either in Ca. or any other state when they contact us.

Another man says we should know what we are doing if we have 40,000 members. PLP does not have 40,000 actual members, we have approximately 3,000. The 40,000 that you have seen listed is 40,000 constituant members. Many of the clubs and organizations that are members, with that membership we absorb thier membership as well as the club as a courtesy.

I hope that this will resolve some of the questions. If there are other questions or ideas, my phone number is at the bottom of this emal and you can feel free to call me.

Jerry

Ron

The records of PLP expenses are considerable, we have not made arrangements to send them by mail to anyone.However, I can invite you to a board meeting on

the 2nd wed of each month. At that time our full income and expenditures are open to the public if they wish to attend. If you wish to attend let me know and I will send you the invitation and where to come.

I must say that I am offended at any unfounded rumors about what we do with our funds. I have devoted 20 years of my life to help build PLP to help the small scale miners and recreationalist on our public Lands and there are others on the board that have done the same . It appears that no matter what you do for some people you can not satisfy them

I would also be interested in what you have heard and by who because it needs to be addressed and cleared up. First of all, the funding we get is minimal compared to what PLP gets involved in the legal field. We are fighting organizations and the government with millions and even billions of dollars with what most would consider chump change.

Some of the expenses we have are attorney fees for 6 law suits we are involved to protect the miners rights. 4 against the Ca. Dept of Fish and Game on a dredging

moratorium, 1 against the US Forest Service for road closures which affect the whole western united states and 1 in the state of Washington on there denial of special use permits for extended dredging seasons. We write extensive comments on many other issues and assist in resolveing individual problems across the whole country, including Arizona.

Some of our expenses are for attorney fees, legal research, Westlaw alone is $1400 a month, mailing costs, telephones, accountant and travel expenses all over the

country to make GPAA gold shows to help raise funds to fight these issues. It is no easy chore and certainly a thankless job

All of the people are volunteers and only get their travel expense paid and all of them have at one time or another spent their own money to complete some task for PLP. They do not deserve unfounded accusations. Those making the accusations should get off their dead ass and start their own fight if they are not pleased with what the percieve of PLP.

I hope I have addressed some of your concerns and hope you take me up on my invitation to visit us. Feel free to call me if you wish to discuss this issue

further

Jerry Hobbs

President

Public Lands for the People

7194 Conejo Dr.

San Bernardino Ca. 92404

909-889-3039

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Welcome to the forum Jerry and thank you for addressing the issues you mentioned and you are correct it is indeed impossible to make everyone happy no matter what one does.

My feeling is that we all better find a way to get along and offer suggestions and guidance to each other as opposed to criticizing without even offering a way to fix the issue that has one angry or suspicious in the first place.

I very much respect your efforts and the fact you are willing to join this forum to explain your position goes a long way in my opinion.

I hope some here with concerns will step up and ask the questions they feel need answering as you seem to have no problem responding with an honest answer and explanation.

This thread has made me spend much more time learning at your site as well as the WMA site and by the # of hits both member and guests this post has gotten I am not alone.

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Gosh Mr. Hobbs, I guess we are right back where we started – nowhere.

Instead of making people travel to California, why not make the records available to anyone that asks, by Self-Addressed-Stamped-Envelope and a $10.00 copying/handling fee, which could be considered a donation? Surely you have a public relations professional on your Board, who recognizes the importance of translucence in a matter like this. I am shocked that this has not been addressed.

If we are so willing to fight these folks in open court, why in the name of Eureka, would we want to hide our finances from them? They have enough money to CRUSH us. We should be using our “David vs. Goliath” status to raise even more funds, not hide it like we are doing something wrong - or have something to hide. We all respect you, and PLP, Mr. Hobbs. That is why we, I sent PLP money. Because of all the questions, I want to know what PLP did with it, and making it hard for me to find out makes me think there is a problem.

Terry Soloman, Chief Operations Officer

Arizona Gold Adventures Inc.

California Gold Adventures

Alaskan Gold Adventures

International Gold Adventures

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Gosh Mr. Hobbs, I guess we are right back where we started – nowhere.

Instead of making people travel to California, why not make the records available to anyone that asks, by Self-Addressed-Stamped-Envelope and a $10.00 copying/handling fee, which could be considered a donation? Surely you have a public relations professional on your Board, who recognizes the importance of translucence in a matter like this. I am shocked that this has not been addressed.

If we are so willing to fight these folks in open court, why in the name of Eureka, would we want to hide our finances from them? They have enough money to CRUSH us. We should be using our “David vs. Goliath” status to raise even more funds, not hide it like we are doing something wrong - or have something to hide. We all respect you, and PLP, Mr. Hobbs. That is why we, I sent PLP money. Because of all the questions, I want to know what PLP did with it, and making it hard for me to find out makes me think there is a problem.

Terry Soloman, Chief Operations Officer

Arizona Gold Adventures Inc.

California Gold Adventures

Alaskan Gold Adventures

International Gold Adventures

Hello? Hello? Is this thing on? Yoo-hoo, Mr Hobbs?

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OK guys, I spoke to the PLP board and explained the sincere concern from some of you miners and they agreed that it is the right thing to do in giving you the information that you have requested. We will send you a copy of our 2011 final accounting of profits and losses. We would appreciate it if you did not post this information on the websites because we will send it to whom ever requests it and it really doesn't need to be in the enemies hands.

It will create extra work for the PLP accountant but she is willing to do that for you. If you do not have a real interest in it, we would ask that you do not overwelm her with a massive request.

For the information you can send me an email at jerhobbs2@verizon.net requesting the information and I will forward it to her and she will send it to you by mail. At this time PLP will not be charging a fee for the mailed information, however if it gets to be overwhelming we may have to ask for postage at a later date.

If you choose to send a small donation for the information you can send check made out to PLP to the following address.

PLP

C/O Jerry Hobbs

7194 Conejo Dr.

San Bernardino.Ca. 92404

For other information on propecting and mining problems You can contact me at the following number

909-889-3039

I hope this is helpful

Jerry

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Howdy Jerry,

that is great and should help gain more trust for your organization from the general public and I am thinking this move will also generate some more working money as well. Without folks willing to step up and try to make a difference where would we be? I know some are more critical than I about how things are done, but if they have a better idea sharing it to avoid issues would be the best idea I think.

If we do not support the efforts of folks willing to step up to the plate to help we are in deep trouble.

No one is ever perfect and fighting for land rights rapidly being taken away by government is no easy task and I thank you and your staff for your efforts.

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That was a very long and taxing post but its a read that must be done, and at the end I admit that we have atleast started to get somewhere however small it might be considered its unquestionably "somewhere" and I'm glad I took the time to read it and read it all.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think it is time that PLP is given a second look. A few years ago during the height of the dredging frenzy my regional prospecting club donated $1000 each to PLP and the New 49ers. We received a prompt and courteous acknowledgment from the 49ers, but heard nothing from PLP. Last month we again donated $1000 each. This time PLP made the effort to acknowledge the donation. I think they sincerely are trying to improve their public relations image. I also spoke for the first time with the PLP lawyer at the recent GPAA show in Pomona. My initial impression is that he knows what he is doing. Jerry Hobbs has been at the forefront of the battles despite personal setbacks. I am impressed with his grit. The degree of PLP emphasis on the 1872 Mining Law is not something I would do, but that is a judgment call made on a complicated battlefield of issues. In my opinion those of us with dominantly recreational interests are better off working with PLP rather than standing aside from them, totally isolated from their efforts. They are a player, and a strong player at that, in a ragtag army of liberty loving individualists. Just my dos centavos.

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Guest Gripper

In my world of full time work plus any side jobs that I am offered, I am happy to donate to a cause that furthers prospectors interest. Some can give time to the cause but I am forced to only give the fruits of of my labor by donating money. I would love to be retired/semi retired like some on this forum. I am thankful to be able to give at all.

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