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Bedrock Bob

Another metal arrowhead

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It is odd that no metal arrowheads have been found in ca, I know that is one hell of a statment but seems to hold water,They were definetly first in New Mexico as far as i can see, It is hard to truley understand what happened with out being there,There is new proof that the chineess {}sp} were on the pacific coast long before the spainards as time goes on we learn more and more and many asumed things become fantasy, Interesting history from everyone,No reason to get fired up. Few of us are experts with degrees and such.

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Very well said Denny, lets just enjoy the forum.

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You're welcome Bob, and when I make my trip down to AZ to do some hunting in a few months, we do have to travel through N.M., so I may just have to stop and swing a coil with ya for a bit. I know from family and friends that N.M. is beautiful, and it has a lot of dry lakes that I would like to hunt anyway. So if I am not having much luck with Holbrook and G.B., I may cut that part of the trip short and look for some dry lakes. Keep in touch and maybe I could link up with ya, it would help me out as I don't know any good camping spots anyway, and that's how my buddy and I will be living during our trip.

@kuger, there is no reason for you to be such a [removed] about Bob's statement that they were made from armor. Dude the Native Americans made blades, tools, and beads from iron METEORITES in the past, why not armor from dead enemies/trades, etc? Even if it wasn't a widely practiced way to make points, I can almost guarantee it happened a minimum of at least a dozen times throughout history, and who is to say this wasn't one of those particular events? Do you specialize in points/Native American culture? Are you an archaeologist? Do you own a lot of metal points/have you ever tried to make one from a barrel band just for the hell of it? Weirder things have happened throughout history, and there is no telling what you will find in or near the remains of a Native American camp. I've seen everything from British Half-Pennies and metal/stone beads to 'lip' harps and current (Up to 1920) American coinage all in the same spot back in Indiana, along with points that were separated by design/quality by over 100 years. So it's not a stretch if he says they are made from armor, because you should know as well as I that the tools made back then could be made from just about anything, and you never know what you find at a Native American site, as it depends on what was traded for as well as made.

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Here are a few examples of artifacts found in the same locations that are very different from each other.

I found these in Fort Wayne in the same area of field. From left to right, 1800's German coin with two hand glazed marbles, two pretty chert points, one very crudely made point that seems to be made of a softer stone such as limestone, and a piece of musket shot from the late 1700's. So basically there are bullets and coins from the 1700's-1800's right along side a crude point from the early 20th century when the Native Americans from the area switched to mostly metal tools and the camp was shut down. (Fort Wayne, Indiana)

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k261/GlassJAw667/DSCF2979.jpg

Here is a random assortment of items found in the same location outside Fort Bragg, N.C. in Harnett County, from left to right, a Republic of Colombia military button from the 1860's, (That's right, the COUNTRY of Colombia) a token most likely from a bus I would estimate to be around the 1940's, a 'sugar' quartz hide-scraper, and a hide scraper made from crude pottery.

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k261/GlassJAw667/DSCF2981.jpg

This is proof that you never know what you will find, and how random the assortment could be. A Colombian button with Native American tools? Random.

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well,I was done and am somewhat....as to not "derive",from Bobs find any further and I do apologize for coming across like I did,but I for one like to know facts and when facts are known pass them on,but thats here nor there.....Glassjaw actually I do consider myself somewhat of an well versed person on Native American points as I have been collecting them for the past 30+ years and am the kind of person that immerses myself into all can I learn about a subject.#2 yes,as a matter of fact I have found quite a few iron points,#3 Yes I have made LOTS of points with a hammer cold chisel and barrel bands.I used to made near exact replica arrows and sell them to art galleries/tourists,and as a matter of fact killed a deer with one.So.....again neat find Bob,and sorry.In the future since people seem to appreciate Fantasy(not saying your piece is)I will allow them to pass history on in that fashion....I want nothing to do with it

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Kuger, we do appreciate your expertise and knowledge and have no doubt that you are versed in this subject, but I also have no doubt that BB's character speaks for itself which leaves no room for anything but an argument on how this got there and who made what but that doesnt go anywhere and makes for a loss of interest in the post and next time someone makes a great find they might just keep quiet, thats all I'm saying.

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absolutely not.......there was never a stone arrowhead found at the Custer Battlefield excavations and not all Indians had guns.After white man introduction the stone arrowhead was phased out in the plains

I've wondered why there isn't more stone pointts around places where old Indian villages used to be located. Metal detecting farm fields should produce a few metal point finds, unless they have rusted away. Might depend on the metal the points were made from, our ground stays wet or at least moist most of the year.

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Red_desert In the more climate areas they would rust away ,The Desert seems to keep things stable alot longer, It still seems odd that non have been found out west,Like i said i aint no expert still learning,

Kruger I appreciate your knowledge we out here need people of knowlegde to help us learn, please do not quit with your imput,It,s all good...

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Kuger I meant no offense at all. I was just pointing out that you never know what the Natives may have used to make their tools, and you never know what random assortment of items will be found together from totally different eras in time. I wasn't trying to be rude, I just got a little upset when you basically laughed at the original post. Don't take it to heart, I am quite rude at times by nature. Merry Christmas!

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Red_desert In the more climate areas they would rust away ,The Desert seems to keep things stable alot longer, It still seems odd that non have been found out west,Like i said i aint no expert still learning,

Kruger I appreciate your knowledge we out here need people of knowlegde to help us learn, please do not quit with your imput,It,s all good...

I don't really know if I've dug any metal points, because it never occurred to me Indian points (other than copper culture) could be metal. I've heard plenty of times people finding stone points, can't remember it ever mentioned in local historical articles.I Know I've dug flat sharp pieces of metal before, hard to remember if they were shaped like a point. But, from now on will watch for them.

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Red_desert, I see you're from Northern Indiana, most of the finds I've posted in the first picture on this page were found around the old Bostick Bridge area of Fort Wayne, Indiana. It wouldn't surprise me to know that there are metal tools/points in the area, but depending on the metal content they may have deteriorated to the point where you can't identify exactly what they are. I know family members of mine who have found metal points back in the 70's in this area, but they could have just been blowing smoke. You know how the Indiana weather treats iron and similar metals, but it's no stretch to say they are probably around. I know in certain parts of Fort Wayne you can find Confederate buttons where POW's were housed, and I know at one point according to some of my family members who believe themselves to be amateur historians (Although once again they could be blowing smoke) that there was actually a detainment facility for Nazi POW's as well. I plan on doing a bit of research on my own, as the supposed facility is now abandoned and fenced off, but with proper permission from the city I could most likely bring a detector out there and see what there is to be found.

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Red_desert, I see you're from Northern Indiana, most of the finds I've posted in the first picture on this page were found around the old Bostick Bridge area of Fort Wayne, Indiana. It wouldn't surprise me to know that there are metal tools/points in the area, but depending on the metal content they may have deteriorated to the point where you can't identify exactly what they are. I know family members of mine who have found metal points back in the 70's in this area, but they could have just been blowing smoke. You know how the Indiana weather treats iron and similar metals, but it's no stretch to say they are probably around. I know in certain parts of Fort Wayne you can find Confederate buttons where POW's were housed, and I know at one point according to some of my family members who believe themselves to be amateur historians (Although once again they could be blowing smoke) that there was actually a detainment facility for Nazi POW's as well. I plan on doing a bit of research on my own, as the supposed facility is now abandoned and fenced off, but with proper permission from the city I could most likely bring a detector out there and see what there is to be found.

I can understand finding some metal points around Fort Wayne, IN. If you get old enough county maps from the area, you find all these land sections with lines, all labeled Res. which to me looks like it could be reservation. A couple of them had the name of a Miami Indian chief. If they are old Indian reservations or land, part of Fort Wayne once belonged to the Indians in the early 1800s. Some big battles took place there too!

I'm not too far from where an Indian village was located until driven out during the war of 1812. I probably dug some before, not knowing what they were.

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At no point did I ever claim that this point was made from armor. Let's make that clear. It is all in black and white and I never indicated such. GO BACK AND READ WHAT I SAID. I told a story that was told to me. It was never meant to be some type of "historical data". Simply because someone did not like my story it was suggested that I made that point myself and tried to pass it off as an authentic find.

That was very rude sir. I have been very polite with you. You simply can not refute one single word that I have presented as fact. Neither can you provide any evidence that what was presented as legend is false.

I am a storyteller and I happen to like the story of the first metal points. If you dont like that story then you are going to have to figure out how to deal with it. If you have an issue with anything I have presented as fact LET'S HEAR IT. If you want to say that my story could not be fact then LET'S HEAR WHY. If you think I am trying to present a fake arrowhead and you are an expert then OFFER SOME EXPERT OPINION.

I try to make posts that are interesting and entertaining. I spend a hell of a lot of time finding a hell of a lot of neat stuff. Sometimes fellows get jealous. I can understand that. I think most guys like my posts and my stories though.

Here is a point that I made just for you this evening. I did not find this one. It is NOT AUTHENTIC. I made it with a rock and a little deer antler and used an old Clorox bottle bottom.

Now, if you would like to regale us with a post of your very own where you show off a find or tell a story we would really like that! It is winter and we like to see pictures and tell stories! Can you do that sir? Have you made or found any points lately? We would love to hear some constructive input from you! I have never heard any of your wisdom and now that I know you are an expert I am just dying for you to expound your wisdom!

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It is odd that no metal arrowheads have been found in ca, I know that is one hell of a statment but seems to hold water,They were definetly first in New Mexico as far as i can see, It is hard to truley understand what happened with out being there,There is new proof that the chineess {}sp} were on the pacific coast long before the spainards as time goes on we learn more and more and many asumed things become fantasy, Interesting history from everyone,No reason to get fired up. Few of us are experts with degrees and such.

New Mexico is where they were first exposed and colonized. There was the big slave trade and "conversion" that caused 1/2 of the population to become de-tribalized natives. They came form all tribes and were called the "Genizaro". They had towns and such just like the Spaniards and later on the Mexicans. From the mid 1500's there were natives here that knew how to swing a hammer, use a chisel, make a forge fire with a bellows and coal, make firebrick, do crude smelting, and about any other technology that the Spaniard's had.

They were slaves and servants and learned the Spanish way of life just like the African slaves learned the southern way of life. The first "indian" to swing a hammer against a chisel was an Aztec right after Cortez burned the ships and the technology came north and up the Rio Grande with the Spaniards. It obviously spread throughout the plains indians quickly. I have no idea why California does not have metal points. I figured they did. I bet they do. It just does not take much skill to cut a point from any piece of metal (of that era) with a hammer and chisel. It spread like wildfire once it caught on.

One thing is for sure, around Northern New Mexico you find them regularly. Not quite as often as stone points but often. It is wetter up here and they darn sure rust faster than in the basin and range country of the south. I have never found a metal point in the deserts of the south but have found plenty in the past couple of years along the Santa Fe Trail. And I have been told that the Genizaro blacksmiths of Las Vegas, San Miguel Del Bado, and Pecos were the source of the points. It just seems logical.

I figure that a metal point was a precious thing and rare as hens teeth laying on the ground. it represented a hundred or more shots. Broken flint is everywhere it represented one. It is easy to think that all points were stone but I think most were metal and obsidian by 1800. I know the technology was in New Mexico among the natives during the Pueblo Revolt. So that was a full 250 years before the battles on the plains. I figure that is why there is a lot of 'em here. We were kinda the firstest with the mostest.

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I have to go back and read the replies but just wanted to aplologize to Bob,I came off totally wrong and thats just not right.It is stuff like that that makes people not post and I sure dont want that(just dont give too much info as to not have "visitors".So,sorry Bob,and in the future I will see to it that we have constructive conversation.

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Thanks guys,no offence taken.

In my experience as said points in wet climates dont seem to last,a lot depends on soil as well.In arid climates like N.Mex,Nevada,Arizona etc they seem to hold up well.They do not seem to be common anywhere(as far as I have seen)and I beleive that is because of the period when the Indians were were introduced to the "white Man",he also had guns,which of course was what they wanted(thats just an opinion)

Bob,the problem with embellished stories is that it at some point becomes fact,and history is lost.This is seen with any of the Journals of the Fur Trappers,Buffalo hunters,even 49ers,each time they are reprinted and edited things are changed to make the story more exciting and before you know it its "the way it was".Example:Mark Twains story about the Jumping Frog of Calaveras County was supposedly about somebody filling a Frog with Buckshot as to gain an edge in a bet on a "Frog Jump".....the true story actually was about a Famous Fighting Chicken That MarkTwain had seen In San Francisco,which had lead shot fed to him to cheat.....Mark Twain changed that story to make it more "Politically Correct",but you see my point.I am a preservationist of History and strive to glean the facts....sometimes to a fault.As far as posting pictures of finds????Nope I dont do it,that just brings unwanted attention,for what?I have nothing to prove but a lot to lose.You will just have to trust me on that.

That is an extreme work of art there!!As a 35 year long Knapper myself,I must say I am impressed!!!I have to admit,I use a copper wire to get those kinds of results.....my hats off to you.

So again,please accept my apology and understand my stance Kuger

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I can understand finding some metal points around Fort Wayne, IN. If you get old enough county maps from the area, you find all these land sections with lines, all labeled Res. which to me looks like it could be reservation. A couple of them had the name of a Miami Indian chief. If they are old Indian reservations or land, part of Fort Wayne once belonged to the Indians in the early 1800s. Some big battles took place there too!

I'm not too far from where an Indian village was located until driven out during the war of 1812. I probably dug some before, not knowing what they were.

It was probably Chief Little Turtle, he was buried in Fort Wayne. In theory you could dig just about anywhere near the rivers and find relics.

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Those rivers have a lot of history to them, I'm thinking the land sections marked Res. on old county maps were mostly around the rivers, but would have to get the maps out sometime to check and make sure.

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Kruger ,A lot of my family was from Calaveras Co, settled in west Point 1849/50 before that in Clear Lake area Crabtree hot springs is named from them, I did not know about the embelishment on the jumping frog story, Wow As you said things can get very distorted,

Bob nice point,In one evening, I thought there was more time into those, Guess we all got another lesson,

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Kruger ,A lot of my family was from Calaveras Co, settled in west Point 1849/50 before that in Clear Lake area Crabtree hot springs is named from them, I did not know about the embelishment on the jumping frog story, Wow As you said things can get very distorted,

Bob nice point,In one evening, I thought there was more time into those, Guess we all got another lesson,

Thanks Denny....a lot of history has been lost in the Gold Rush Country especially.It is sad for sure especially when they are pushing to teach Homosexuality.

My family came to Cala County pre 1849!

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Those rivers have a lot of history to them, I'm thinking the land sections marked Res. on old county maps were mostly around the rivers, but would have to get the maps out sometime to check and make sure.

@kuger, like I said man, no offense. I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers, I was just pointing out how random artifacts can be, and you never know what you will find or what it is made from. You're all good brother, and I am checking that link as we speak.

@Red-desert, I don't know if you can cross-reference it well, but the area is found most of my Indiana artifacts was near the river where the Bostick Road bridge is as well as where Anthony Rd. Extended ends up.

http://www.historicbridges.org/truss/bostick/

If you look at the photo and see the field on the other side of the bridge on the right, that's where I found the musket shot and most of the points as well as the paleo-point.

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@kuger, like I said man, no offense. I wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers, I was just pointing out how random artifacts can be, and you never know what you will find or what it is made from. You're all good brother, and I am checking that link as we speak.

@Red-desert, I don't know if you can cross-reference it well, but the area is found most of my Indiana artifacts was near the river where the Bostick Road bridge is as well as where Anthony Rd. Extended ends up.

http://www.historicb.../truss/bostick/

If you look at the photo and see the field on the other side of the bridge on the right, that's where I found the musket shot and most of the points as well as the paleo-point.

No problem, I don't really consider that arguing. Ok, just found my old Allen & Whitley county maps. Near Columbia City, a very large Res. just SW of town. Between Fort Wayne and Columbia city another Res. but smaller. Along the St Joseph river in Allen county several Res. east, then at lest one on the west. I wanted to take close up photos, will have to wait for daylight later. All the Res. have a name.

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Found some Indian pictures and illustrations, Miami chief Little Turtle & chief Godfrey, battles from present day Fort Wayne, Indiana..

http://indianspictur...ustrations.html

The Miami (Miamis) Indians still have a tribal membership down near Peru, Indiana. Peru is in Miami county, have the old county maps shows the Godfrey reserves which are numbered. Now, besides Fort Wayne area, Miami county should be another hotspot to find those points.

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I have to go back and read the replies but just wanted to aplologize to Bob,I came off totally wrong and thats just not right.It is stuff like that that makes people not post and I sure dont want that(just dont give too much info as to not have "visitors".So,sorry Bob,and in the future I will see to it that we have constructive conversation.

I appreciate your gracious apology and I want you to know that it has been accepted. We all have those times, no one more often than I. You have no problems at all with me and I look forward to reading your posts in the future.

Thanks for the good words on the point. I have been knapping since May using mostly glass. I must admit I did do the last layer of pressure flaking with a copper wire hardedned by spinning it in a drill. I sharpen the tip of that copper flaker on my hammerstone to do the notching as well. (I can get even better results with an ivory elk tooth pressure flaker but I hate to wear those suckers down). It takes me an average of about 45 minutes to make a nice point from a piece of glass nowdays and I probably break about 25% of them trying to get a sexy tail on them.

If I spent as many hours detecting in the past six months as I have breaking glass into snowflakes I would be filthy rich.

Bobby

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