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I got an itch to detect a spot that I pass on my way prospecting. It is a little clearing that for some reason I just knew held some secrets. Yesterday I decided to take the old WHites GM2 out of the closet and see what was in that grass.

Sho nuf! Nailed a nice Apache point within five minutes! Found a broken obsidian point and an old bridle buckle too.

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Hello Bob. Some very nice finds there.

Would that metal point be one traded to the Indians by the early trappers? I have read that they were a very "hot item".

Finds like that can certainly stimulate one's imagination. I really enjoy reading about that era.

Best of luck in making new "discoveries",

Patrick.....

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Hello Bob. Some very nice finds there. Would that metal point be one traded to the Indians by the early trappers? I have read that they were a very "hot item". Finds like that can certainly stimulate one's imagination. I really enjoy reading about that era. Best of luck in making new "discoveries", Patrick.....

Those indians learned how to make the metal arrowheads the firt time they saw a Spaniard heat up and shape a piece of metal. They loved to get Spanish armor so they could cut it up and make projectiles that would shoot through Spanish armor.

Most Apaches used metal arrowheads made fom barrel bands, Either that or Obsidian. As soon as metal of any kind was available in the 'New World" you will see where the native began to incorporate it into his lifestyle. I beleive by the time the Southwest was settled almost all arrowheads were metal.

Indians who had converted to Catholicism (Genazarios) did menial jobs in the villages and were often employed by the blacksmiths or farmers. They repaired equipment, made tools and had access to the forge fires. ANd it certainly did not take long for that knowledge to catch on. All it took to make a metal arrowhead was a hammer, a chisel, and the bands to an old oak barrel.

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I got an itch to detect a spot that I pass on my way prospecting. It is a little clearing that for some reason I just knew held some secrets. Yesterday I decided to take the old WHites GM2 out of the closet and see what was in that grass.

Sho nuf! Nailed a nice Apache point within five minutes! Found a broken obsidian point and an old bridle buckle too.

Hi, I have found three metal points through the years. All were about half the size of the one you found. Two from southern New Mexico and one from southern Colorado. They are really neat.

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Hi, I have found three metal points through the years. All were about half the size of the one you found. Two from southern New Mexico and one from southern Colorado. They are really neat.

Were they proportional to this one or wider and shorter? All the points except one that I have found are this long sleek style with a gently curved cutting edge. One was a little shorter, much wider, with a more curved cutting edge.

I beleive that the Rio Grande valley up through Colorado was the place where the natives first learned to make the steel arrowheads. It was the first contact they had with that sort of technology. Here close to Santa Fe you find a lot of nice metal points. The natives here say they learned to make the metal points to shoot through the Spanish armor and the first points were actually made FROM the armor out of that good Spanish steel. But I am sure that they would fashion any suitable material into an arrowhead or knife.

This point has hit the rocks at least once and probably several times. The tip is burred over from the very last shot and the steel behind the tip looks like it has been bent back into shape several times.

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Very interesting post Bob. Enjoy seeing those artifacts of the days of old.

I'm sure your "new tool" is gonna find some real good stuff in the coming days.

Pay special attention to the iron grunt feature and its uses it will come in handy in cases like this.

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Bob, The proportions of all were short and wide but all had a tang. The smallest was probly 3/4 inch long. The other two maybe 1 to 1&1/4 inch long. Lost one sold the other two. The Colorado point I found when I was 11 or 12 on family vacation.

The other two I found in the Little Hatchets while beeping.

Milo

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That is sooooooo fricking cool Bob! Never have found a metal point myself. What era did they start using metal?

I am told they started using metal when they realized thier stone points would not penetrate Spanish armor. They killed a Spaniard and started cutting up the armor so they would have a projectile capable of penetrating it.

Here in this country it seems the steel points are pretty common. I have found several. Every one of them (so far) have been right on the surface and I I.D.'d them before I ever passed a coil over them.

As soon as metal was being used in the "New World" the natives began using it for knives and projectiles. It takes zero skill to make a metal point and a hell of a lot of skill to knapp an arrowhead. The metal lasted for many years and the obsidian lasted for one shot. SO I would imagine that as soon as the natives saw one of the metal points they got some as fast as they could.

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Bob, that is a fantastic find. Thanks for educating us as well on the history behind these types of artifacts. Pretty amazing to think that holding one of these in your hands, you may be grasping a piece of centuries-old armor.

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I thought only copper culture points were metal.

absolutely not.......there was never a stone arrowhead found at the Custer Battlefield excavations and not all Indians had guns.After white man introduction the stone arrowhead was phased out in the plains

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Points were made from whatever metal was available. The first ones were recycled Spanish armor for sure, becasue many artifacts were made from it as well as re-used as armor. The most common material was probably barrel bands, especially from the late 1700's on. But one piece of metal was just as good as another and there is no doubt they used it all. Any thin piece of metal could be quickly cut into shape with a cold chisel whether it be a barrel band, a hub band or a nail flattened by heating and hammering.

The story of the Spanish armor was an illustration of the natives improvising and meeting an immediate need. They never realized what they were missing until the Spanish came along and then it became painfully obvious. Armor and the need for a projectile to combat it was obviously the motivator. That is what the story is about and not a claim that all metal arrowheads were made from armor. Some certainly were as there are plenty of breastplates in museums in Santa Fe with chunks cut out for implements.

To think that a warrior would pass up a piece of plate armor in favor of a "barrel band" is absurd. Think about it...in 1500 there were 25 barrels in the Rocky Mountain region and 500 or so breastplates. There were no smelters on this continent. All metal came from Europe across the Atlantic ocean. it was HEAVY to bring a couple thousand miles to the new world. Clay pots were the "barrels". NAILS were the precious commodity and many were hammered into points. And the Spanish points that were twice the size of native points were no doubt trimmed down to fit the curved bow and returned to the sender.

The natives in the Rio Grande valley WERE the blacksmiths after 20-30 years of Spanish occupation. Genizaros did the labor in the communities and were the skilled tradesen under Spanish supervision. They not only made artifacts from the armor but they made and repaired the armor as well. And the knowledge of simple metalworking was with the native in the Rio Grande Valley since the early 1500's.

By the 1800's the Apache point was either obsidian or metal. Either material was easily worked and readily available. Metal points were being mass produced in blacksmith shops throughout New Mexico and traded all over the plains. They were made from barrel bands, nails, horse shoes, and any other piece of metal that had been brought by wagon to this country. All of them!

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again....I would like to see pictures.....I cant speak for the Rio Grand but can for Montana,Idaho,Wyoming and Nevada....I have never ever seen a metal arrowhead made from anything other than thin barrel band like material.I would like to see the average Indian heating metal over a campfire and hammer forging an arrowhead!!I have seen hundreds of excavated metal points.....would love to see these you speak of?

I see no mention of Armour??Also I would like to see then cut a wheel band with snips or a chisel...I have made points from barrel bands with a hammer and chisel...no heat

http://www.nm.blm.go...in/weapons.html

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again....I would like to see pictures.....I cant speak for the Rio Grand but can for Montana,Idaho,Wyoming and Nevada....I have never ever seen a metal arrowhead made from anything other than thin barrel band like material.I would like to see the average Indian heating metal over a campfire and hammer forging an arrowhead!!I have seen hundreds of excavated metal points.....would love to see these you speak of?

You seem to misunderstand. The average indian cut points with a cold chisel from any metal suitable. And as I indicated barrel bands in the later days were the material of choice. Not the ONLY material, but the material of choice. Now, that was the average native.

In the Rio Grande valley the natives WERE THE BLACKSMITHS AND BLACKSMITHS HELPERS. I am sure it is easy for you to visualize these people making arrowheads from scrap metal of all kinds...Even metal that was not "barrel bands". Now, have you ever heard of "Comancheros"? Well, this is the illicit trade route through which the tribes of the plains got the metal points and rifles.

The "averager indian" in New Spain was either a savage or a Genizaro. No, the "savages" did not have forge fires. But the Genizaro DID. And access to any scrap metal. Out on the plains they were relegated to cutting ANY thin metal they could with a hammer and cold chisel. And of course, since a metal arrowhead was the hot commodity it was produced by the Genizaro for trade.

Now, you may ASSUME that all arrowheads were made form barrel bands. But how could a person tell what the parent metal was for these points? I have several points that are cut from a flat piece of metal and these definitely could be barrel bands (or any other piece of metal a similar gauge). I also have several "keeled" points that were obviously hammered. Possibly cold hammered but keeled nevertheless. I dont think that a barrel band would be forged into shape.

I think the disconnect in your thinking is the assumption that all natives in the new world were nomadic plains indians with no exposure to European culture or technology. In the RIo Grande valley the natives were the first to be subdued, converted, and exposed to European technology. You are speaking of a people and events that happened a full 300 years AFTER the natives were taught to work metal in the Rio Grande Valley. As a matter of fact our natives are some of the best metalworkers in the country...Silver and turquoise are sort of our thing here as well as copper and bronze artisans. All throwbacks from our rich history.

So points were indeed made form any available metal, not just barrel bands, and were traded all over the west via the Comanchero. And "indians" did indeed know how to hot and cold forge metal as well as any European because they were taught the skill by the Europeans. Not ALL "indians" but enough to make a shitload of forged points. This happened at least 250 years before Custer, and only about 100 years after the Apache split from the Navajo. Proof of these activities are in every antropological study and native story in the state. If you simply can't believe that an "indian" could figure out how to cut a point from a thin piece of metal other than a barrel band, or that trained blacksmiths did not forge points for trade from any metal available then we can certainly discuss it some more if you would like to!

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Well I dont have time at the moment to argue a few of your "Facts",but will point out that I never said anywhere all points were made from barrel bands.I did however ask to see these heads cut from armour?Your facts are indeed full of holes,and I am quite aware of the nomadic and non nomadic traits of various tribes.At present I happen to be residing in California....do you know anything about the California Missions and the Indian slaves??If you do,maybe you could answer why these forged points you speak of never show up here or Nevada?Wouldnt one assume since the Spanish were allowing there Indians to use there tools to make weapons to possibly use against them,some would be here?I see none in any archi reports either?As said I dont have the time right now,but would really like to see some factual data to support your claims

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I would really like to see proof of any point being made from armor....thats funny!!! They,as yours were made from barrel bands.....all of them

I thought that the statement above meant that you were saying all points were made from barrel bands. Did I misunderstand it?

Why do you want to fight? I just posted a neat find and suddenly I am having no fun at all.

I have pretty much answered all your inquiries and supported my statements without supplying you a bibliography. I thought my post was informative, entertaining and factual. I was under the assumption that it was a good contribution to the forum. If you don't feel that it is then I suppose it is your choice to turn it into another big issue like so many other threads.

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No,I didnt say all of them,I said yours!But as there is no way to know if you didnt make them yourself I digress.I was hoping for you to back up your claims thats all,but you didnt/cant.No desire to fight just state the truth.If your posts are meant to be "funny",but factless,I will note that and skim over them in the future.I for one seek the truth,and was maybe hoping you could teach me something new?

Also....what "other threads",do you elude to,or is that another failed attempt at a Jab?

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That is an absolutely beautiful and amazing find! I have hunted points in several states and found that each state has it's own different types. For instance in Indiana you will most likely find flint or chert points although I have found a really weird granite spear head that is over 10,000 years old (conservative estimate) and was probably deposited there by glacial movement. But here in the Carolinas most of the points I find are made from the 'sugar' quartz that is common in the area. I have yet to find any metal tools although I know up in Indiana they have been found near high-trade areas. What you have there is essentially my 'holy grail' of Native American artifacts. Congrats, and keep the pictures flowing!

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Why do you want to fight? I just posted a neat find and suddenly I am having no fun at all.

I have pretty much answered all your inquiries and supported my statements without supplying you a bibliography. I thought my post was informative, entertaining and factual. I was under the assumption that it was a good contribution to the forum. If you don't feel that it is then I suppose it is your choice to turn it into another big issue like so many other threads.

I agree, Bob found it, so it is what he says it is, without cluttering the post up with arguments, its a forum...not a wikipedia fact checking website. What Bob says took place sounds reasonable, cool and interesting and that is all thats needed here, without swirling around the toilet and flushing another cool topic down the drain. It is what Bob says it is....Great find Bob, keep em coming.

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