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sanin92

Is This Rock an LL-Chondrite?

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Hey guys I'm new to this website, as well as to meteorite hunting. I went to some of the dry lake beds in Lucerne Valley, California, hunted for about 8 hours and found this rock. It was sitting broken side up (the side with the reddish-orange on it). I filed a window into the rock, it seems to have chodrules and metal flecks. The picture with the neodymium magnet shows two different types of magnetic filings, the one on the right are some magnetite filings while the one on the left is what I picked up from the filings of the rock I found. I did this just to test if the substance that made my rock magnetic was magnetite(common in most earth rocks), and instead it appears to be an un-oxidized form of Iron or nickel which is uncommon amongst earth rocks. Also I took pictures with a 15xzoom magnifying glass in order to show some dark chodrules with iron-nickel flecks completely surrounding them, there are metel flecks everywhere else in the rock, but I found those to be the most interesting. Anyways tell me what you guys think!

Sorry for the large amount of pics, just wanted you guys to see as much of the rock as possible.post-25556-0-54874400-1311837257_thumb.jpost-25556-0-18990900-1311837329_thumb.jpost-25556-0-63926900-1311837387_thumb.jpost-25556-0-57592300-1311837419_thumb.jpost-25556-0-51530100-1311837487_thumb.jpost-25556-0-26912200-1311837546_thumb.jpost-25556-0-15072500-1311837575_thumb.jpost-25556-0-21285600-1311837609_thumb.j

Thanks,

Sani Nassif

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Sani,

From what I see it looks like the real deal, wish I could see the window pics but they are kind of fuzzy Did you find this on Lucerne dry lake?? If so check out the met base and compare it to some of the ones there to see if they are similar also you can visit Jim wooddells site to see some other test you can perform http://desertsunburn.no-ip.org/

Other then that looks nice.

Bryan

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The ONLY way for you to know is to send it in to a lab and have it analyzed.

There is no one that can give you an answer from a picture.

My :twocents: from viewing the pictures is NADA even a meteorite. Pictures are very tough to analyze, even if they are quality close ups, which yours aren't.

So if you really want to know if you have , 1st a genuine meteorite is do a few of the simple tests that can be done at home, then 2nd if you feel it passes these have an experienced hunter/collector view it in person and get their opinion.

BUT most important contact a university or lab that can do the proper testing /classifying on it.

Then you will be standing on solid ground. And your mind will be assured.

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The exterior looks promising at first glance, but impossible to say for sure from a photo. What looks like it could be fusion crust on the outside in photo 2 does not present itself as such in the side view given by your filed window. The interior definitely does not appear to be chondritic at all, and if that was all I saw I would say terrestrial; but the exterior is curious. Like Frank said, only way to know for sure (because while it's possible to i.d. a meteorwrong from a photo it is rarely ever possible to i.d. a meteorite based on photo alone) is to have it tested. You'd get better opinions in person, anyone local to you knowledgeable on the subject?

As a side note you should refrain from associating your find with a specific classification of meteorite as indicated by the title of this post, especially since you don't even know if it's a meteorite at all. You also should not refer to the "metal" you see as "nickle" or "nickle iron" or even "iron" for that matter because there is no way you can know what is it; basically every metal on the periodic table has a silvery look to it. Just some friendly advice.

:)

Happy hunting!

P.S. Steve, streak test are used for iron meteorites only, they don't tell you anything about stones since all stones leave streaks.

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The ONLY way for you to know is to send it in to a lab and have it analyzed.

There is no one that can give you an answer from a picture.

My :twocents: from viewing the pictures is NADA even a meteorite. Pictures are very tough to analyze, even if they are quality close ups, which yours aren't.

So if you really want to know if you have , 1st a genuine meteorite is do a few of the simple tests that can be done at home, then 2nd if you feel it passes these have an experienced hunter/collector view it in person and get their opinion.

BUT most important contact a university or lab that can do the proper testing /classifying on it.

Then you will be standing on solid ground. And your mind will be assured.

Thanks for the response, I really tried to take crystal clear close shots but all of the detail in the rock are VERY small, I would need a microscope to really do a good job in getting the details of the rock. Also where do you think I can send my rock for analysis nearby me(southern California)? I've tried Kansas meteorite association but they have not responded to my email.

Sani Nassif

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Thanks for the response, I really tried to take crystal clear close shots but all of the detail in the rock are VERY small, I would need a microscope to really do a good job in getting the details of the rock. Also where do you think I can send my rock for analysis nearby me(southern California)? I've tried Kansas meteorite association but they have not responded to my email.

Sani Nassif

Hello Sani!

Based on the pictures, I'd say it is not a meteorite. I know you do not want to hear that.

Why?

A. I do not see fusion crust, primary or secondary. Nor do I see flow lines.

B. I do not see chondrules.

C. Free metal, as in iron-nickle, is obvious without the need for major magnification. Same with chondrules.

Your pictures should be macros and of high quality. High def macros are near impossible without an external link that does not compress or limit a pictures size. Otherwise, we could tell quickly.

Personally, I do not think you are ready to send it to someone. You need to continue your tests of the rock as has been mentioned. I think when you complete the tests, you will answer your own questions. Otherwise, I'd be happy to look at your rock, have it XRF'ed, etc. If you need help with the tests, I'd be happy to help you do them as well.

Kind Regards,

Jim Wooddell

http://desertsunburn.no-ip.org

jimwooddell@gmail.com

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The exterior looks promising at first glance, but impossible to say for sure from a photo. What looks like it could be fusion crust on the outside in photo 2 does not present itself as such in the side view given by your filed window. The interior definitely does not appear to be chondritic at all, and if that was all I saw I would say terrestrial; but the exterior is curious. Like Frank said, only way to know for sure (because while it's possible to i.d. a meteorwrong from a photo it is rarely ever possible to i.d. a meteorite based on photo alone) is to have it tested. You'd get better opinions in person, anyone local to you knowledgeable on the subject?

As a side note you should refrain from associating your find with a specific classification of meteorite as indicated by the title of this post, especially since you don't even know if it's a meteorite at all. You also should not refer to the "metal" you see as "nickle" or "nickle iron" or even "iron" for that matter because there is no way you can know what is it; basically every metal on the periodic table has a silvery look to it. Just some friendly advice.

:)

Happy hunting!

P.S. Steve, streak test are used for iron meteorites only, they don't tell you anything about stones since all stones leave streaks.

Thank you, I agree that I shouldn't say off the bat the specific meteorite name. And I said nickle/iron instead of metal because when I gathered the magnetic material from the filings of my rock with my magnet(last picture), they matched the color of nickel and iron, and because they strongly adhere to my magnet the likeliness of them being nickel or iron is pretty high. Although I agree I cant tell for sure until I get them tested. And for some reason this website stretches all my pictures and makes it really hard to see what I wanted you guys to see in the photographs. Where you able to see the metal flecks in my picture? If it is possible to zoom out I'm sure you will be able to see them, the way the flecks surround dark chondrules really looks like the LL-chondrites on this website http://www.saharamet.com/meteorite/gallery/chondrite/ I really hope I can find a place to get this rock tested for a good price.

Thanks,

Sani Nassif

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Sani,

From what I see it looks like the real deal, wish I could see the window pics but they are kind of fuzzy Did you find this on Lucerne dry lake?? If so check out the met base and compare it to some of the ones there to see if they are similar also you can visit Jim wooddells site to see some other test you can perform http://desertsunburn.no-ip.org/

Other then that looks nice.

Bryan

Thanks, I really tried to take clearer pics but it was hard, I should have removed the first pic with the magnifying glass it is hard to see the chodrule surrounded with flecks that I wanted you guys to see, but could you see the chodrule surrounded with flecks in the second magnified picture?

Sani Nassif

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Hello Sani!

Based on the pictures, I'd say it is not a meteorite. I know you do not want to hear that.

Why?

A. I do not see fusion crust, primary or secondary. Nor do I see flow lines.

B. I do not see chondrules.

C. Free metal, as in iron-nickle, is obvious without the need for major magnification. Same with chondrules.

Your pictures should be macros and of high quality. High def macros are near impossible without an external link that does not compress or limit a pictures size. Otherwise, we could tell quickly.

Personally, I do not think you are ready to send it to someone. You need to continue your tests of the rock as has been mentioned. I think when you complete the tests, you will answer your own questions. Otherwise, I'd be happy to look at your rock, have it XRF'ed, etc. If you need help with the tests, I'd be happy to help you do them as well.

Kind Regards,

Jim Wooddell

http://desertsunburn.no-ip.org

jimwooddell@gmail.com

How much would it cost me to get my rock XRF'ed?

Sani Nassif

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P.S. Steve, streak test are used for iron meteorites only, they don't tell you anything about stones since all stones leave streaks.

Hi Michael,

I would like to comment on the statement above.

Not all stones leave colored streaks. An uncolored streak is a valid streak. The test very much indicates needed information.

A streak test is a valid test and it is one of the fundamental tests that should be performed with a suspect rock. The test is not necessarily testing to rule in a meteorite. You use the test to rule out terrestrial rocks.

For example, if the streak test is conducted, as it should be, and it streaks red or black, it's obviously not a meteorite. Case closed, no need to go any further.

Fresh chondrites will show little if any streak because they have not had enough time on earth to oxidize. However, an old chondrite can streak and the streak will typically be brown and you really have to rub because of their hardness in a clean windowed area. Gold Basin = Brown, Franconia = Brown and every unwa I have is brown.

To take the streak a bit further, when you grind on a meteorite, the dust produced is as good as doing a streak test. Grind on Hematite and the dust will be red and grinding on Magnetite, the dust will be black for just two examples. I've pointed out the color of the dust in my videos for a few different meteorites (Chondrites) and it is brown. I have yet to see old OC's be anything but brown. I am not saying there wouldn't be a different color, but I think the color it typical of iron oxidation.

I am currently studying meteoric iron shale from Canyon Diablo and it is streaking brown.

So, remember, you are not ruling in a meteorite, you are ruling out terrestrial rocks. Weathered OC's can streak. And as you know, that test along is not conclusive.

In regards to iron meteorites, I fail to see the point! I am not sure it is going to prove much. It's not going to tell you much. I can see the same streak on earth iron as I can on an iron meteorite. The best test for them is to create a polished window and if you a lucky at that point you would see the patterns or you will need to etch the window....or you can XRF it (none destructive) to verify the presence of nickel. And then, some irons are not going to have much of a pattern if any and maybe not anywhere near the surface. So, the XRF or XRD sort of tests tend to be a very valid go/no-go test. Other than that is would be up to a scanning electron microscope-EDS to indicate the presence of the nickel element. Etching is great for comparative analysis, etc. Still, you are not ruling in a meteorite, you are ruling out earth rocks!

Anyways, just my two cents

Kind Regards!

Jim

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Like Jim said, use an external hosting site (see forum sticky, or try www.imageshack.us) for high-quality macro picts, then they won't get distorted.

What is the color of nickel or iron? What is the color of silver? How about platinum, or zinc, or tin? Have you ever seen chromium or aluminum or lead?

There are no chondrules visible in your photos, I only see a crystalline magmatic structure.

Thank you, I agree that I shouldn't say off the bat the specific meteorite name. And I said nickle/iron instead of metal because when I gathered the magnetic material from the filings of my rock with my magnet(last picture), they matched the color of nickel and iron, and because they strongly adhere to my magnet the likeliness of them being nickel or iron is pretty high. Although I agree I cant tell for sure until I get them tested. And for some reason this website stretches all my pictures and makes it really hard to see what I wanted you guys to see in the photographs. Where you able to see the metal flecks in my picture? If it is possible to zoom out I'm sure you will be able to see them, the way the flecks surround dark chondrules really looks like the LL-chondrites on this website http://www.saharamet...lery/chondrite/ I really hope I can find a place to get this rock tested for a good price.

Thanks,

Sani Nassif

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Jim, have you ever streak tested Tagish Lake? I assure you it is quite black, from personal (accidental) experience. I would hazard to guess that there are several other C chondrites that also leave black streaks.

I do see your points, though, I hadn't really heard of streak tests being used for anything besides irons before.

Hi Michael,

I would like to comment on the statement above.

Not all stones leave colored streaks. An uncolored streak is a valid streak. The test very much indicates needed information.

A streak test is a valid test and it is one of the fundamental tests that should be performed with a suspect rock. The test is not necessarily testing to rule in a meteorite. You use the test to rule out terrestrial rocks.

For example, if the streak test is conducted, as it should be, and it streaks red or black, it's obviously not a meteorite. Case closed, no need to go any further.

Fresh chondrites will show little if any streak because they have not had enough time on earth to oxidize. However, an old chondrite can streak and the streak will typically be brown and you really have to rub because of their hardness in a clean windowed area. Gold Basin = Brown, Franconia = Brown and every unwa I have is brown.

To take the streak a bit further, when you grind on a meteorite, the dust produced is as good as doing a streak test. Grind on Hematite and the dust will be red and grinding on Magnetite, the dust will be black for just two examples. I've pointed out the color of the dust in my videos for a few different meteorites (Chondrites) and it is brown. I have yet to see old OC's be anything but brown. I am not saying there wouldn't be a different color, but I think the color it typical of iron oxidation.

I am currently studying meteoric iron shale from Canyon Diablo and it is streaking brown.

So, remember, you are not ruling in a meteorite, you are ruling out terrestrial rocks. Weathered OC's can streak. And as you know, that test along is not conclusive.

In regards to iron meteorites, I fail to see the point! I am not sure it is going to prove much. It's not going to tell you much. I can see the same streak on earth iron as I can on an iron meteorite. The best test for them is to create a polished window and if you a lucky at that point you would see the patterns or you will need to etch the window....or you can XRF it (none destructive) to verify the presence of nickel. And then, some irons are not going to have much of a pattern if any and maybe not anywhere near the surface. So, the XRF or XRD sort of tests tend to be a very valid go/no-go test. Other than that is would be up to a scanning electron microscope-EDS to indicate the presence of the nickel element. Etching is great for comparative analysis, etc. Still, you are not ruling in a meteorite, you are ruling out earth rocks!

Anyways, just my two cents

Kind Regards!

Jim

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Like Jim said, use an external hosting site (see forum sticky, or try www.imageshack.us) for high-quality macro picts, then they won't get distorted.

What is the color of nickel or iron? What is the color of silver? How about platinum, or zinc, or tin? Have you ever seen chromium or aluminum or lead?

There are no chondrules visible in your photos, I only see a crystalline magmatic structure.

I completely understood your first point, I know that the filings from my rock matches the color of almost every existing metal, but the magnetic properties of my filings only match 4 elements. Silver, platinum, zinc, etc. do not attract magnets at room temperature. The four elements that contain the magnetic properties my filings have at room temperature are iron,nickel,cobalt and gadolinium. Terrestrial cobalt and gadolinium are dark in appearance and do not match the ferromagnetic filings that I picked up from my rock, therefore I think that the likeliness of the metal that I have being Iron or Nickel are higher than it being gadolinium or cobalt. Although I agree with you on the fact that I will not know for sure until I get my rock tested.

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Jim, have you ever streak tested Tagish Lake? I assure you it is quite black, from personal (accidental) experience. I would hazard to guess that there are several other C chondrites that also leave black streaks.

I do see your points, though, I hadn't really heard of streak tests being used for anything besides irons before.

Hi Mike,

No, I referenced OC's, the most likely found. CC's as you state by your experience, could be different, understandably. Different class.

Jim

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I completely understood your first point, I know that the filings from my rock matches the color of almost every existing metal, but the magnetic properties of my filings only match 4 elements. Silver, platinum, zinc, etc. do not attract magnets at room temperature. The four elements that contain the magnetic properties my filings have at room temperature are iron,nickel,cobalt and gadolinium. Terrestrial cobalt and gadolinium are dark in appearance and do not match the ferromagnetic filings that I picked up from my rock, therefore I think that the likeliness of the metal that I have being Iron or Nickel are higher than it being gadolinium or cobalt. Although I agree with you on the fact that I will not know for sure until I get my rock tested.

You are digging way deeper than necessary for basic test. Iron is common in many earth rocks. Continue the tests. Do a streak...what color do you get? What is the bulk density??

Jim

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You are digging way deeper than necessary for basic test. Iron is common in many earth rocks. Continue the tests. Do a streak...what color do you get? What is the bulk density??

Jim

Yes oxidized forms of Iron exist in the majority of all earth rocks and are relatively dark in their appearance(the filings on the right hand side of the magnet in the last picture I posted). Elemental Iron exists only in meteorites(excluding slag), and on my original post I said that I did that test(I picked up magnetic filings from my rock and compared them to oxidized iron that exists abundantly on earth) to see whether or not what made my rock magnetic was the very common terrestrial oxidized iron or something else, and it appeared to be an un-oxidized ferromagnetic metal. As for a streak test, the filings of the rock came out to be a light brown color. And unfortunately I do not have an scale accurate enough to do a bulk density test. Also where can I get a good cheap filer that can file a smooth surface, because my filers left a bumpy surface that made it hard to see clear details of the rock.

I apologize for over-analyzing topics its just that science really intrigues me and its hard for me to shut up about it

Sani Nassif

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Yes oxidized forms of Iron exist in the majority of all earth rocks and are relatively dark in their appearance(the filings on the right hand side of the magnet in the last picture I posted). Elemental Iron exists only in meteorites(excluding slag), and on my original post I said that I did that test(I picked up magnetic filings from my rock and compared them to oxidized iron that exists abundantly on earth) to see whether or not what made my rock magnetic was the very common terrestrial oxidized iron or something else, and it appeared to be an un-oxidized ferromagnetic metal. As for a streak test, the filings of the rock came out to be a light brown color. And unfortunately I do not have an scale accurate enough to do a bulk density test. Also where can I get a good cheap filer that can file a smooth surface, because my filers left a bumpy surface that made it hard to see clear details of the rock.

I apologize for over-analyzing topics its just that science really intrigues me and its hard for me to shut up about it

Sani Nassif

Sani,

Wet/Dry sand paper works pretty good. Start with something like 150 grit and work up toward 600 or 1000 grit. It takes a little time but you end up with a nice polished surface. Do that and then take your pictures outside in natural light.

You filings are likely from the outer surface. The streak should be done on your clean windowed surface. Got a coffee cup laying around? The ring on the bottom of the cup is not normally glazed. Take your window and rub it on that ring to get a color. Will take you less than 5 minutes to do.

Jim

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I'm still learning, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. The first pic sure looks like fusion crust to me, I have an NWA that has fusion crust practically identical to it. The other pics are too poor to tell much more.

The scratch test tells a lot in my opinion. I have purchased quite a few meteorites on ebay. So far I have had 2 seperate ones that sort of seemed to good to be true when I got them. Both were very heavy and grey black in color. The cortex sort of looked like fusion crust on both of them, but on closer examination did not look right. I scratched each of them on the sidewalk and got red streaks. I did not want to grind a window at this point so I took density tests and got density's around 4.5, much heavier than my real ones. One was magnetic, the other only barely. I finally ground windows on both of them and both exhibited a solid greyish color, no chondrules, no metal flakes. I am fairly sure both were hematite. I returned both rocks to the sellers, one of which had sold quite a few others, expressed apologies, and stated he will no longer sell them. I am just mentioning this because I believe these tests can certainly rule out meteorwrongs. False tests have a positive side, they show a newbie what metworwrongs look like....jim

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P.S. Steve, streak test are used for iron meteorites only, they don't tell you anything about stones since all stones leave streaks.

Mike-

We get a lot of first time posters on this forum asking if a particular rock they found is a meteorite or not. The first thing we tell them is to do a streak test to check for iron minerals like hematite,magnetite,etc. You'd be surprised how many are eliminated with that simple test...

Steve

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I'm still learning, but I'll throw in my 2 cents anyway. The first pic sure looks like fusion crust to me, I have an NWA that has fusion crust practically identical to it. The other pics are too poor to tell much more.

The scratch test tells a lot in my opinion. I have purchased quite a few meteorites on ebay. So far I have had 2 seperate ones that sort of seemed to good to be true when I got them. Both were very heavy and grey black in color. The cortex sort of looked like fusion crust on both of them, but on closer examination did not look right. I scratched each of them on the sidewalk and got red streaks. I did not want to grind a window at this point so I took density tests and got density's around 4.5, much heavier than my real ones. One was magnetic, the other only barely. I finally ground windows on both of them and both exhibited a solid greyish color, no chondrules, no metal flakes. I am fairly sure both were hematite. I returned both rocks to the sellers, one of which had sold quite a few others, expressed apologies, and stated he will no longer sell them. I am just mentioning this because I believe these tests can certainly rule out meteorwrongs. False tests have a positive side, they show a newbie what metworwrongs look like....jim

Hi again Jim Winn!

I need your regular email address if you can send me a PM.

You know, I really do hope I am wrong, for the sake of the finder.

Take a look at the first picture. It tells a lot. Look at the top edge where the brown colored patina is pealing away. Normally, fusion crust is thicker and does not peal away like this. Where fusion crust has pealed, it has been my experience there is damage beneath. In this picture, it just looks like the patina pealed or chipped off, to me.

Now, take a look at the bottom of this same picture. See the linear cliffs? This is not typical of a meteorite and is very typical of earth rocks.

In the other views where you can see the window, look around the edge....do you see any thickness indicating a fusion crust? The rock appears to be flat. I do not see uniform ablation of any kind on it's surface.

This is what I see, based on these pictures.

Jim Wooddell

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Gotcha (and Jim), thanks for the clarification.

Mike-

We get a lot of first time posters on this forum asking if a particular rock they found is a meteorite or not. The first thing we tell them is to do a streak test to check for iron minerals like hematite,magnetite,etc. You'd be surprised how many are eliminated with that test...

Steve

That was something I noticed, too, Jim, and mentioned it in my first post. The cracks on the surface do not appear to be contraction cracks, but rather the rock itself cracking apart. This is an interesting rock and it is something I wouldn't mind looking at in person, but from the pictures we have been presented I'm more inclined to say "nice meteorwrong" than anything.

Sani, I live in southern California, too. If you ever make it out by the 210/15 interchange I'm in the area and would be happy to look at your find over a beer and slice of pizza.

In the other views where you can see the window, look around the edge....do you see any thickness indicating a fusion crust? The rock appears to be flat. I do not see uniform ablation of any kind on it's surface.

This is what I see, based on these pictures.

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NOT a meteorite. Top looks pretty good but underside reveals the truth - hematite... Those are NOT chondrules and no crust and no metal. it sticks to a magnet because thats what hematite does.... Good try though!

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The ONLY way for you to know is to send it in to a lab and have it analyzed.

There is no one that can give you an answer from a picture.

My :twocents: from viewing the pictures is NADA even a meteorite. Pictures are very tough to analyze, even if they are quality close ups, which yours aren't.

So if you really want to know if you have , 1st a genuine meteorite is do a few of the simple tests that can be done at home, then 2nd if you feel it passes these have an experienced hunter/collector view it in person and get their opinion.

BUT most important contact a university or lab that can do the proper testing /classifying on it.

Then you will be standing on solid ground. And your mind will be assured.

Not true...many of us CAN tell from a photo. Assuming of course the photo is good, and the rock isn't weathered to near nothing. HED type meteorites including Lunars and martians (without obvious crust) need Oxygen isotope abundance tests in a lab before anyone knows.... This is because they look so much like earth rocks that without crust, regmaglypts or flow lines one can't know. However, If they DO have those features then one can tell from a photo!

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Rubin you can tell from a photo if the piece in question is definitely an LL type meteorite ??? That was the topic question that was asked.

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