Notice of Intent...

[azblackbird]

Here's the scenario...

Research indicates past gold, silver, and copper bearing geology and formations in an area I wish to prospect.

Area is PNF land.

All I want to do for now is some small scale sampling (non-mechanized) and detecting to determine mineral viability.

There are non-maintained roads and single-track trails leading to the general area, however... the actual area I want to sample is virgin ground and hasn't seen any activity (that I know of) since the late 1890's early 1900's.

Now here's the kicker... one of the goat trails I need to take to access this sampling/potential claim area has a "ROAD CLOSED" sign posted just off the main trail, which BTW is also a 'non-maintained' trail.

My question to the experts here... Do I need to get any permits, or file a notice of intent if I wish to ride my Rhino and Rokon into this area to gather samples, or to survey any potential claim markings? :shrug:

[sawmill]

azblackbird

You can't get a notice unless you have

an active claim. Unless you have a good

claim and are dead serious about developing

it into a real mine,never ask about or

apply for a notice,or plan. This will

bring attention,that you really don't

want.

Don't get caught riding or driving any

motorized vehicle on any closed road for

any reason,especially prospecting.

Without having an active claim on those

trails or roads,all you can do is contact

the district ranger,and beg,or walk in like

everyone else.

Just casual hand tool prospecting does not

require a notice or permission. Using a

closed road or trail ,or asking to use it

just for casual purpose ,as simple prospecting

will set off the alarms,and bring you misery.

If you had a real discovery and was wanting

to bring in exploration equipment,then you

might get a bonded permit,to open a trail or

road. Be prepared to pay the national debt,

and sell your soul to the Forest Service.

The first thing a ranger would want is some

proof ,that there is a real prospect,that may

lead to a real working mine,and not just a

wild goose chase ,by a hobby prospector.

[azblackbird]

azblackbird

You can't get a notice unless you have

an active claim. Unless you have a good

claim and are dead serious about developing

it into a real mine,never ask about or

apply for a notice,or plan. This will

bring attention,that you really don't

want.

Wait a minute... you're telling me I have to file a claim first? How do I know to file a claim unless I have had access to the area to sample, survey and mark it?

Don't get caught riding or driving any

motorized vehicle on any closed road for

any reason,especially prospecting.

Uhhh... so how am I supposed to access my 'potential' claims if the roads or trails to them are closed?

Without having an active claim on those

trails or roads,all you can do is contact

the district ranger,and beg,or walk in like

everyone else.

Wouldn't that be my purpose for filing a notice of intent, to let the District Ranger know that I will be riding cross country to access a potential claim?

Just casual hand tool prospecting does not

require a notice or permission. Using a

closed road or trail, or asking to use it

just for casual purpose, as simple prospecting

will set off the alarms, and bring you misery.

What "alarms" are you referring too? Why would I bring "misery" to myself? I have nothing to fear from our government. I'm just trying to abide by their laws, which to say the least are about as clear as mud.

If you had a real discovery and was wanting

to bring in exploration equipment,then you

might get a bonded permit,to open a trail or

road. Be prepared to pay the national debt,

and sell your soul to the Forest Service.

Bringing in heavy equipment would definitely be a possibility, however before I get to that point, I need to verify (sample), prospect, explore, and survey the area before claiming it for any minerals to be removed. If there are no economically recoverable minerals, no use in filing a claim, nor even a notice of intent until I can verify it would be be worth my time. Thus the reason for needing access to the area.

The first thing a ranger would want is some

proof ,that there is a real prospect,that may

lead to a real working mine,and not just a

wild goose chase ,by a hobby prospector.

Seems to me we have a 'Catch-22' situation here... kinda hard to provide proof of mineral viability if you can't 'legally' access the area to claim it, or do any sampling or meaningful exploration... right? Isn't that the whole purpose of a notice of intent? But then again... you don't need a notice of intent if you are just doing minor sampling, or surveying to mark a claim... right? :shrug:

[sawmill]

azblackbird

I didn't make the rules,just

telling you the sad truth.

The Forest Service is not denying

you access by not letting you ride

a Rhino on a closed trail.

You have the same access as the

rest of the public does to the area.

If you are serious about getting

there walk or ride a mule. If you

find anything of interest,file a

claim,then you will at least have

a little standing for a permit.

Opening a closed road or trail on

Forest land for private purpose is

an expensive,and long process.

Most times it is impossible to get

permission even if you have a real

legitimate reason.

If you don't like what I have said,

just wait until you talk to the

ranger. I am sure he will be real

understanding when you advise him ,

that you will be riding your Rhino

in the area.

Until you produce evidence that you

are a legitimate mining ,or exploration

company,with deep pockets,the Forest

Service just sees you as a recreational

prospector. Make a discovery,file a

claim,apply for a notice,if you think

it is worth while. If the prospect looks

good using the notice,then file a plan.

The notice only gives you the right to

prospect beyond casual hand methods .It

does not give you any rights to actually

mine or recover minerals for profit. It

does put you under a lot of attention

from that point on,because you are in the

system forever more. There is some things

you just don't want to raise your hand

for,before thinking. ^__

I work on National Forest timber sales.

The Forest Service can't even open some

roads on their own projects,for their

own use.Once these roads are closed and

make the permanent closure status,they

can only be opened by an act of Congress.

[Hoser John]

:baaasmiley: no noi ever as 1872 mining laws give you the right to prospect already BUT forest name and classification I am not familiar with sooooooooooo local yokel info most important as to local proclavaties of pisfers-John :ph34r2:

[azblackbird]

azblackbird

I didn't make the rules, just

telling you the sad truth.

The Forest Service is not denying

you access by not letting you ride

a Rhino on a closed trail.

You have the same access as the

rest of the public does to the area.

If you are serious about getting

there walk or ride a mule. If you

find anything of interest, file a

claim, then you will at least have

a little standing for a permit.

2813.14 - Right of Access to Claim . The right of reasonable access for purposes of prospecting, locating, and mining is provided by statute. Such access must be in accordance with the rules and regulations of the Forest Service. However, the rules and regulations may not be applied so as to prevent lawful mineral activities or to cause undue hardship on bona fide prospectors and miners.

Opening a closed road or trail on

Forest land for private purpose is

an expensive, and long process.

Most times it is impossible to get

permission even if you have a real

legitimate reason.

There's nothing to open, the trail is already there. 2813.14 states I have reasonable access without undue hardship. By walking 4 or 5 miles in treacherous terrain with 100 lbs of prospecting gear (risking a broken ankle) would cause undue hardship in my case.

If you don't like what I have said,

just wait until you talk to the

ranger. I am sure he will be real

understanding when you advise him ,

that you will be riding your Rhino

in the area.

Truth be known... if I would ever happen to see a Ranger in the area I wish to prospect, he's either lost... or his superiors hate his guts so much, that they have assigned him to patrol an area where the potential for grave injury or death is ever present. We're talking about a pretty remote area that I wish to prospect in, thus the reason for the Rhino and Rokon (my mule) to gain access to the area. A regular 4x4 or Jeep wouldn't make 10ft. due to the difficult terrain, thus the use of the Rokon.

Until you produce evidence that you

are a legitimate mining ,or exploration

company,with deep pockets,the Forest

Service just sees you as a recreational

prospector. Make a discovery,file a

claim,apply for a notice,if you think

it is worth while. If the prospect looks

good using the notice,then file a plan.

The notice only gives you the right to

prospect beyond casual hand methods .It

does not give you any rights to actually

mine or recover minerals for profit. It

does put you under a lot of attention

from that point on,because you are in the

system forever more. There is some things

you just don't want to raise your hand

for,before thinking. ^__

2811.1 - Lands Open to Mineral Entry . All National Forest System lands which (1) were formerly public domain lands subject to location and entry under the U.S. mining laws, (2) have not been appropriated, withdrawn, or segregated from location and entry, and (3) have been or may be shown to be mineral lands, are open to prospecting for locatable, or hardrock, minerals (16 U.S.C. 482).

Funny... I don't see anything in the statute making me provide proof that I'm a "legitimate" mining company. The whole idea is to prospect, sample, and survey the area in the hopes of becoming a "legitimate" mining company. Can't put the cart before the horse ya know. ;)

[whylee]

Sounds like you have all the answers there. As sawmill stated you are up against the govt. Just go to the ranger and tell them that, im sure they will see it your way and just go remove the sign for you.

It just does not work that way, no matter how much sense it makes to you. They dont care if you have to hike in 4-5 miles in rough terrain with a 100 pound pack. These are our lands and it really sucks, but we are losing them at a alarming rate. Once they close a area off for a wilderness area or whatever, it is pretty much gone at that point. Its not as simple as just going in to a ranger station and reading them rules and regs, they didnt make the rules, they just enforce the laws that have been handed down. I wish it was as easy as that but its not.

[sawmill]

Azblackbird

I don't know how you are missing

the main point,but every thing you

added ,revolves around an existing

mining claim,for access purpose.

No one is denying you access. They

are not going to let you use a closed

road for motorized vehicles,just for

your convenience.

Argue with the ranger. He will win

whether you agree or not.

[azblackbird]

Argue with the ranger. He will win whether you agree or not.

No need, there's a case already pending that's doing the "arguing" for all of us. This should set a precedence. :whoope:

PLP vs. Eldorado NF

In the mean time, I'm going to continue on with business as usual following the NF laws as I interpret them.

[whylee]

No need, there's a case already pending that's doing the "arguing" for all of us. This should set a precedence. :whoope:

PLP vs. Eldorado NF

In the mean time, I'm going to continue on with business as usual following the NF laws as I interpret them.

Just be careful, it hurts all of us when people interpret laws, but by doing so it breaks them. They only see it as prospectors doing what they want regardless of the law. You dont want to end up in court spending thousands because you dont agree with a law or you think it meant this or that, sometimes its best just to ask to be sure.

[Au Seeker]

No need, there's a case already pending that's doing the "arguing" for all of us. This should set a precedence. :whoope:

PLP vs. Eldorado NF

In the mean time, I'm going to continue on with business as usual following the NF laws as I interpret them.

I hope this case brings back our rights as they should be, but I doubt it will, I noticed that they are requesting a Jury Trial, if this trial is to be held in California most likely the jury will have as a majority even after the jury selection process a bunch of environmental sheep following their leaders!!! :*&$*(: :*&$*(:

And if they do lose it will only set a precedence for more closures of our lands, but I commend them for trying and hope they win.

Skip

[sawmill]

Azblackbird

You may want to rethink some

things. The case you cited in your

post was dismissed last December.

The PLP lost it big time,because

they screwed it up from the start.

Name one real significant case the

PLP has ever won.

[Hoser John]

:yuk-yuk: PLOP FLOPPED AND GOT MOPPED AS USUAL

[azblackbird]

Azblackbird

You may want to rethink some

things. The case you cited in your

post was dismissed last December.

Yeah, I saw that after looking into it a little more. Actually there's some very good info in the dismissal record that would allow for a future filing should it ever come to that.

The PLP lost it big time, because

they screwed it up from the start.

I wouldn't say they "lost" per se. They just jumped the gun, as none of the plaintiffs had a verifiable summons or complaint issued from the FS, nor could show any actual damages that would give legal cause to argue in court. That right there speaks volumes if you can read between the lines.

Name one real significant case the

PLP has ever won.

They've probably won about as many cases against the .gov, as any other recreationist organization representing anybody who likes to get out and have some fun. :shrug:

[sawmill]

Azblackbird

The case was dismissed with prejudice,

that means that it can't even be appealed.

I would say that is a major loss.

Don't take my response personal. There

is way too much bogus information out

there for prospectors now. When I see a

problem with any info,I try to set it

straight ,so other guys don't get in a

jam.

I have dealt with the Forest Service,BLM

Tribal,and Federal government for over 50

years. I don't agree with most of their

crap,but have learned to work around it,and

survive,sometimes thrive!

I could write a book about road closures,

from personal experience.One of my jobs is

opening and closing roads for drilling and

mining companies.

I opened and closed one road 7 times in 3

weeks for 7 different companies. Each one

had to have separate permits and bonds.The

road had to be closed and approved each time

to meet bonding release requirements.

Most of the Forest Service people hate these

stupid rules as bad as we do. This ranger

district has been fighting to open roads that

were listed by mistake for 3 years,to complete

a timber sale on a burn.

Just a suggestion ,if the area you are

interested in isn't worth the effort to walk

or ride a mule for,it ain't worth fighting

over. If the ore won't pay for a pack mule,

small miner operation ,you need to find a

better spot.

Keep it simple,use the law to your advantage.

Ride your jackass by the ranger and grin like

a possum,because he can't mess with you then.

[azblackbird]

Thank you for all your responses and insight SawMill.