Jump to content
Nugget Shooter Forums

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Willy Bayot

Powerful Meteorite Detecting tool

Recommended Posts

Could you tell how its use would be 'severely restricted'?

Thanks,

Willy

We've already had people here that have tested proton mags on meteorites with very poor results. Problem is most meteorites are not solid metal like you use in your tests. Buy some different sizes and classes of stony meteorites for testing purposes and post the results, then you can brag all you want, if it's justified.

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Look at this document:

http://users.skynet.be/fa352591/PPM%20MarkII%20test%20results.PDF

This is a comparative test ground which has been setup by a team of our existing clients.

Willy

Thank you for the report Willy. Interesting read, but I did note that the targets being located were large items and that the data showed the finds quite well. Most all meteorites are pretty small in comparison though, and I believe that is the main disagreement folks have with the technology.

My apologies also. Most sites don't allow folks to openly market their own products, and I reacted out of habit. Could be the prospecting world is different, and creative business ideas are encouraged.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We've already had people here that have tested proton mags on meteorites with very poor results. Problem is most meteorites are not solid metal like you use in your tests. Buy some different sizes and classes of stony meteorites for testing purposes and post the results, then you can brag all you want, if it's justified.

Steve

Thanks for the suggestion.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the report Willy. Interesting read, but I did note that the targets being located were large items and that the data showed the finds quite well. Most all meteorites are pretty small in comparison though, and I believe that is the main disagreement folks have with the technology.

My apologies also. Most sites don't allow folks to openly market their own products, and I reacted out of habit. Could be the prospecting world is different, and creative business ideas are encouraged.

Mike

I quite understand how suspicions existing forum members can be against claims from brand-new members, more specially if they also say that they have no previous meteorite hunting experience. By the way, I shall probably never get the opportunity to get one from here in Europe.

I was probably a bit too 'pushy' in my first post, I see now that I should have better introduce myself first and I never wanted to be aggressive to anybody.

I'll follow the good suggestion of GoldFinger to buy/get some samples of meteorites and make benchmark tests with them.

I know very well that the stony ones will not be detected but they would not be with a metal detector either.

I am also aware that the tiny metallic ones would probably not be detected by a fast survey.

What I have understood from my readings is that there are at least half the meteorites found to be of Fe-Ni type.

My main point was to promote the use of this technology to make quick GPS-based surveys over large area without the need of 'sweeping' a coil and waiting for the usual 'weeping' of a metal detector. This method would, I think, be quite complementary to the thorough sweeping method.

Anyway, I know someone in Canada who owns a number of meteorites of various kinds and sizes he had found himself and also owns one of our PPM.

Thus, I'll ask him to make and publish some benchmark tests with them.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey Willy; thank you for the clarification...you are too Techno-smart for me. But you are mistaken about stone meteorites...

"I know very well that the stony ones will not be detected but they would not be with a metal detector either."

I reckon most of the chondrites found at Franconia or Gold basin are found with detectors, both vlf and PI...

There are rare types that would be difficult to detect but cetainly most Chrondrites are detectable...any of O Richard Nortons books will give you a solid base of knownledge for your research and this discussion.

Fred

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

hey Willy; thank you for the clarification...you are too Techno-smart for me. But you are mistaken about stone meteorites...

"I know very well that the stony ones will not be detected but they would not be with a metal detector either."

I reckon most of the chondrites found at Franconia or Gold basin are found with detectors, both vlf and PI...

There are rare types that would be difficult to detect but cetainly most Chrondrites are detectable...any of O Richard Nortons books will give you a solid base of knownledge for your research and this discussion.

Fred

In Wikipedia, I find the following description of the types of Chondrites:

-H chondrite have High total iron and high metallic Fe (15-20% Fe-Ni metal by mass[7]), and smaller chondrules than L and LL chondrites. ~42% of ordinary chondrite falls belong to this group (see Meteorite fall statistics).

-L chondrites have Low total iron contents (including 7-11% Fe-Ni metal by mass). ~46% of ordinary chondrite falls belong to this group, which makes them the most common type of meteorite to fall on Earth.

Thus, the metal contents of those are essentially Fe-Ni which are not only metallic but also magnetic material.

If a VLF can detect those, I can assure you that a PPM will also detect them but at a longer distance.

It would not be true if the metal contained in them would not be magnetic, which would make them detectable by a VLF or PI but not with a mag.

Is my reasoning correct?

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy, I retract the statement " I doubt he ever used a Mag"

I went to your site and found it most informative and seen you referenced

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/mag/projects/fmx1/fmx1.pdf

Carls Mag Plans.

I still can't see a mag finding Meteorites like a good ol Detector or Maginet on a stick can.

You Referenced the Inverse Square law on detectable signals. Light, RF and Magnatisum all follow this law unless focused in some fashon.

The Magnetic signature of a 1lb chunk of Iron is minuscule to begin with.

At 4ft it would be 1/2 the original.

I just don't see a mag detecting a magnetic field as faint provided by a 1lb meteorite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy, I retract the statement " I doubt he ever used a Mag"

I went to your site and found it most informative and seen you referenced

http://www.geotech1.com/pages/mag/projects/fmx1/fmx1.pdf

Carls Mag Plans.

I still can't see a mag finding Meteorites like a good ol Detector or Maginet on a stick can.

You Referenced the Inverse Square law on detectable signals. Light, RF and Magnatisum all follow this law unless focused in some fashon.

The Magnetic signature of a 1lb chunk of Iron is minuscule to begin with.

At 4ft it would be 1/2 the original.

I just don't see a mag detecting a magnetic field as faint provided by a 1lb meteorite.

Since you cite Carl Moreland, see also his reference to a document I have published about my mag project which started back in 2005.

Here it is: http://www.geotech1.com/cgi-bin/pages/common/index.pl?page=mag&file=projects.dat

It is not the Inverse Square law, it is the Inverse third power law. Thus, it is even making the signal decaying faster with distance.

However, according to this law, a 1lb chunk of iron generates a field gradient of about 3nT (i.e. old gamma units) at 2 meters of distance.

Look at the attached nomogram. It is just a plot showing this law applied in practice. It has been extracted from this document published by Geometrix : http://perso.infonie.be/j.g.delannoy/BAT/ampm-opt.pdf

Thus, it is indeed quite feasible and rather easy to detect such a target at 4ft since it would then generate a field gradient of almost 20nT.

A reasonably good PPM easily measures field gradients of 1nT while ours is about 5 times more sensitive than that.

Anyway, 'the proof of the pudding is in the eating'. I'll have some benchmark tests applied on a number of meteorites and we'll see if the mag technology can indeed be successfully applied on the meteorite hunting.

Willy

post-25199-0-39391800-1299963162_thumb.j

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I quite understand how suspicions existing forum members can be against claims from brand-new members, more specially if they also say that they have no previous meteorite hunting experience. By the way, I shall probably never get the opportunity to get one from here in Europe.

I was probably a bit too 'pushy' in my first post, I see now that I should have better introduce myself first and I never wanted to be aggressive to anybody.

I'll follow the good suggestion of GoldFinger to buy/get some samples of meteorites and make benchmark tests with them.

I know very well that the stony ones will not be detected but they would not be with a metal detector either.

I am also aware that the tiny metallic ones would probably not be detected by a fast survey.

What I have understood from my readings is that there are at least half the meteorites found to be of Fe-Ni type.

My main point was to promote the use of this technology to make quick GPS-based surveys over large area without the need of 'sweeping' a coil and waiting for the usual 'weeping' of a metal detector. This method would, I think, be quite complementary to the thorough sweeping method.

Anyway, I know someone in Canada who owns a number of meteorites of various kinds and sizes he had found himself and also owns one of our PPM.

Thus, I'll ask him to make and publish some benchmark tests with them.

Willy

Willy,

Some of the iron type meteorites we find are smaller then your pinky fingernail. They weigh less than 0.1 grams. In fact most gram scales won't or can't weight them. I have to resort to a grain scale used to measure gun powder to weigh these. And, the ones I find are typically subsurface down to about 2 inches. All I get on the detector is a very weak "zip-zip" when I pass over them and you have got to be really listening. A good test would be to take a tin can, cut out a 0.125" x 0.25" piece of it, and put it under 2 inches of top soil. That would be a good starter test. See what you can do with that!

I think others have commented on the other flavors of meteorites.

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy,

Some of the iron type meteorites we find are smaller then your pinky fingernail. They weigh less than 0.1 grams. In fact most gram scales won't or can't weight them. I have to resort to a grain scale used to measure gun powder to weigh these. And, the ones I find are typically subsurface down to about 2 inches. All I get on the detector is a very weak "zip-zip" when I pass over them and you have got to be really listening. A good test would be to take a tin can, cut out a 0.125" x 0.25" piece of it, and put it under 2 inches of top soil. That would be a good starter test. See what you can do with that!

I think others have commented on the other flavors of meteorites.

Jim

You are right, it is not even necessary to test those ones, it is hopeless.

I have no illusion about using such a tool in such a case.

That does not mean that this method can not be applied for bigger pieces, even if buried.

I mean: Quickly covering large ground area while logging results on a file (no zip-zip) together with the corresponding GPS fixes. Then, study of the file and go back to the interesting spots for a more thorough scan using any tool, VLF, PI, MAG or even your beloved small permanent magnet on a stick.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darn it...can't you geeks speak down to me...please!

All Chondrites have some amount of nickel/iron in the form of specks, lumps, globs or veins...if you want the technical terms and explanation borrow or buy one of the Norton books I mentioned...even Mars or Lunar meteorites might be detectable in neutral soil using ametal detector in the fixed, non tracking mode...but your machine would not "read" those at all...

fred

post-378-0-04418900-1300035625_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is the picture I meant to post...look close and you will see the metal where I filed the edge...

fred

post-378-0-00360400-1300035851_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darn it...can't you geeks speak down to me...please!

All Chondrites have some amount of nickel/iron in the form of specks, lumps, globs or veins...if you want the technical terms and explanation borrow or buy one of the Norton books I mentioned...even Mars or Lunar meteorites might be detectable in neutral soil using ametal detector in the fixed, non tracking mode...but your machine would not "read" those at all...

fred

Hey Fred,

Nice flow lines on that baby!

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darn it...can't you geeks speak down to me...please!

All Chondrites have some amount of nickel/iron in the form of specks, lumps, globs or veins...if you want the technical terms and explanation borrow or buy one of the Norton books I mentioned...even Mars or Lunar meteorites might be detectable in neutral soil using ametal detector in the fixed, non tracking mode...but your machine would not "read" those at all...

fred

Hey, Fred, I guess you misunderstood what I said in my last post.

I do not contest at all that those Chondrites are detectable with a VLF or PI, I just said that there is no hope to detect the smaller ones described by DesertSunBurn with a mag during a quick survey session. They should probably only be detectable after a long and thorough coil sweeping. This can only cover a small ground for each search session. I am doing myself VLF surveys (using (White's XLT and White's V3) on our archaeological fields to find roman coins and I know very well how boring and tiring it is even though we limit our searches to the trenches of a single digging season.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi again,

A few weeks ago, I promised to make a series of comparative tests between a VLF and my PPM on a collection of various types of meteorites.

This is the link to the post on a french-speaking meteorite forum. This is posted by the person with whom I have made the tests and actually the owner of this collection.

This report is made in French but I could translate some parts of it if necessary.

http://meteorites.superforum.fr/t3859-comparatif-magnetometre-ppm-vlf-spectra-v3

The VLF used to make the comparison is a White's Spectra V3 set in 'meteorite search' mode.

Any question is welcome.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the update Willy. I just entered the URL into Google, and then hit the available "translate" link.

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Willy!

Sounds like you had some fun testing all those meteorite specimens! So, how was the test performed and what coil was being used on the spectra?

Was this a free air test or did you bury the samples?

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Willy!

Sounds like you had some fun testing all those meteorite specimens! So, how was the test performed and what coil was being used on the spectra?

Was this a free air test or did you bury the samples?

Jim

The Spectra was equipped with its standard coil(10"), its discrimination mode was set to 'meteorite'.

The tests were made with the specimens put on the ground and slowly decreasing the distance between the sensor or coil until the instrument positively detects it, i.e.:

- The sweep movements of the VLF recognized it by a beep and a correct VID on the LCD (-95)

- The PPM generated a gradient threshold warning (it was set to 8nT)

To be sure, we then put the sensor or coil close to the specimen and slowly increased the distance until the instrument lost the detection.

The test environment was in the favor of the VLF since we know very well that air tests are giving better results for metal detectors.

This is because the eddy currents induced by metal detectors in buried targets also induce some currents in the more or less mineralized ground and fool the detector.

A PPM is not at all disturbed with that since it does not induce and detect eddy currents.

I think the large differences of detection distance for chondrites is due to the combining of two different physical laws:

1. The difference of detection sensibility based on the rule 'inversely proportional to the THIRD power of the distance' for the PPM while the VLF responds to the rule 'inversely proportional to the FOURTH power of the distance'.

2. A chondrite has its Fe-Ni contents as small chondrules separated by non-conducting parts. This keeps the induced Eddy currents in each small chondrule. The sum of those eddy currents do not add up to be detected by the VLF or PI. On the contrary, the PPM is influenced by the TOTAL mass of all the tiny Fe-Ni pieces, more specially if their remanent magnetization is in the same orientation for all of them.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This scientific article clearly shows the huge advantages of using magnetometers instead of metal detectors to find deeper meteorites.

http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/seri/PA.../0057//0000020.000.html

Read the pages 17 to 21 by clicking on the 'Next article page' button at the bottom of each page.

If you prefer, I have attached the document to this post as a Word file.

Willy

Doc4.doc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy,

One of the area I hunt frequently if full of what is know as "hot rocks". These make a detector scream. Now, some of these rocks are magnetic and some are not. However the meteorites are mixed in with these types of rocks both on the surface and underground. A recent find was a 39g H5 at 6" subsurface. I have to move several hot rocks out of the way to get to it and the only way I knew something of interest was there was the sound of my detector. It gives me a specific sharp sound I have learned to tune into. However, when digging, I always wonder if I am just digging another hot rock.

Because I bought a new detector and I am awaiting arrival of it, I gathered some of thesehot rocks from my hunting area so that I can test it locally without traveling when it arrives.

So how would your unit handle such a condition and tell me I have a unique object in the ground relative to the hot rocks around it?

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy,

One of the area I hunt frequently if full of what is know as "hot rocks". These make a detector scream. Now, some of these rocks are magnetic and some are not. However the meteorites are mixed in with these types of rocks both on the surface and underground. A recent find was a 39g H5 at 6" subsurface. I have to move several hot rocks out of the way to get to it and the only way I knew something of interest was there was the sound of my detector. It gives me a specific sharp sound I have learned to tune into. However, when digging, I always wonder if I am just digging another hot rock.

Because I bought a new detector and I am awaiting arrival of it, I gathered some of thesehot rocks from my hunting area so that I can test it locally without traveling when it arrives.

So how would your unit handle such a condition and tell me I have a unique object in the ground relative to the hot rocks around it?

Jim

Jim,

I think the term 'hot rock' covers a multitude of types of contents, all of them being disturbing for a VLF by one or more of their components.

It also the case for the term 'black sand' which is a generic term used by detectorists.

This is a text extracted from a gold prospection site:

<There are a number of definitions on what hot rocks are made up of but in general they are what we know as ordinary granite. Hot rocks are a remainder of a cosmic meltdown. In the molten planet, heavy minerals moved down to the bottom. Lighter elements, like those of granites, floated up to the top. To this day, they are still fixed in the earth’s crust as hot dry rocks. They are also one of the worse enemies a prospector can have. One important issue to remember about metal detectors though is that even the best and finest metal detector will respond to what is known as hot rocks. Hot rocks are much mineralized rocks that give some metal detectors a positive response. In gold prospecting hot rocks bring about problems, and why does this take place? Well, when the detector loop is passed over them they make a great deal of noise and in many occasions this misleads the prospector to thinking he has found a metal target. And they bring about inconveniences because they lead the prospector to think he may have found something when in fact he has only run into a hot rock. Although hot rocks might be a bit of a hassle for prospectors, it does not have to turn into such a big predicament for the reason that there is an approach to dealing with this problem. It is feasible to identify them. This will require of practice so that the prospector is able to make out when it is a hot rock or a real metal target. Take into account also that a rock can be a hot rock in one area while it may not be in another area. As a result this means that a hot rock is a “hot rock” depending on the type of ground that it is situated in, and depending on the amount of mineralization, the “hotter” the rock will be.

If a rock causes there to be a sound in the detector, it is caused by the change in mineralization in the earth. As a matter a fact, there are some rocks that are so mineralized that they not only make a signal that sounds like metal but they can also cause the audio of the detector to overload and on occasion neutralize the effectiveness of the loop. This means that they can literally destroy the use of the detector so that it will not detect any target.>

Do you use a VLF or a PI?

Do these 'hot rocks' make a PI to scream as well?

In order to objectively answer you, I would need to make a real test with those hot rocks while using my PPM. Preferably with several types of them.

However, the type of 'hot rock' which is just highly mineralized does not disturb a PPM nor a PI. The types which are magnetic would surely be taken as a potential target.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy, IIRC you are outside the US? I don't have any, but I am wondering if someone could send you a few of the "hot rocks" from their area and have you test against them. Might be a much better barometer of performance than using some generic hot rocks from a different environment.

:twocents:

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willy, IIRC you are outside the US? I don't have any, but I am wondering if someone could send you a few of the "hot rocks" from their area and have you test against them. Might be a much better barometer of performance than using some generic hot rocks from a different environment.

:twocents:

Mike

I did not dare to ask but it is exactly what I had in mind. :rolleyes:

I would obviously pay for the shipping costs.

What could be less expensive than shipping them to Belgium is to ship them to Canada (BC) to my partner. He is able to make the tests as well.

Willy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Willy,

I use a 71Khz VLF. I do not use a PI so someone else may answer your question there. I think all that hunt this area are troubled by hot rocks. They can almost be overwhelming at times and are for some folks. I kind of "broke-in" hunting meteorites there and would probably think something broke if I did not hear hot rocks at least every 12 inches!happy0193[1].gif

I think this test...is a true final test. This is a real field condition no one can change. As stated, many of them will stick to a magnet.

Some of them, particularly in Gold Basin, will stick better than a meteorite...as in magnetite. One of my videos on youtube shows where I can not shake the stone from my magnet!

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where I hunt there are literally PILES of hot rocks that will make a PI scream just like a metal target. They are indistinguishable from a target with a PI or VLF. And then there is the ore material that is also indistinguishable from a target. It is black mineralized quartz that is highly magnetic and sounds just like metal.

There is a slightly different response with these rocks as a free metal target but no difference at all to a chondrite that I can hear. Many meteorites simply wont make my PI respond at all but these hot rocks will. And guys with every type of detector VLF or PI have the same trouble here.

The ore material has a lot of gold in it but you cant tell with the detector at all. It all makes a racket. You must crush the ore to see if you have coarse gold in a piece. You learn quickly to distinguish the ore from the hot rocks but as far as I can tell there is absolutely no difference in target response between the two different rocks.

I have hunted a lot of different areas and only RARELY get a rock to respond with the PI, but in Hillsboro a PI will go WILD in certain spots and a VLF is completely worthless on the surface.

As far as a magnet goes in Hillsboro if you get a neo close to the ground a dozen rocks will jump up to it. Almost every rock is magnetic. So using a magnet to weed out waste rock is a waste of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...