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wjbell

GMT compared to TDI

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Right now I have a GMT and I'm thinking about the TDI. Does anyone have any experience with both? What kind of depth on bigger nuggets will the TDI get? For example, I have a 6 pennyweight lead piece that looks like a nugget. In an air test I can pick it up with the GMT at 12" Of course in bad ground it would probably be less. Will the TDI ignore bad ground? What do you think the TDI would do in an air test with the same size nugget? What about smaller gold, say a 1/2 gram nugget. How does the TDI do with those?

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I have a TDI and recently sold my Whites GM V/sat. The TDI hands down has better depth and can handle bad ground that that was difficult to detect on when I had use my GM. The downside is that the TDI can't pick up those crumbs that you can with a GMT but overall performance is better with a TDI. If you want to meet up sometime you can test mine out.

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I have a TDI and recently sold my Whites GM V/sat. The TDI hands down has better depth and can handle bad ground that that was difficult to detect on when I had use my GM. The downside is that the TDI can't pick up those crumbs that you can with a GMT but overall performance is better with a TDI. If you want to meet up sometime you can test mine out.

Thanks for the reply Sean. Where are you located, in Sac?

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If you guys get together, let me know. If possible, I would like to join in and bring my TDI and gpx5000.

Matt

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If you guys get together, let me know. If possible, I would like to join in and bring my TDI and gpx5000.

Matt

Yeah, either way, maybe we can get together and go out detecting for a day. I'm down for around two weeks though while my GMT gets repaired at White's. Apparently, the control boxes don't float. :shrug:

But I'm thinking about a TDI or a minelab SD. The benefits of the TDI are warranty for one (which I've proven can come in handy) and I hear they are better around power lines. But I don't think they have iron discrimination. After you get to know the TDI can you tell when you run over iron, or is it a dig all machine?

The minelabs do let you know it's iron by nulling out right?

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I have not used the TDI enough to understand it's capabilities, but I believe it has really good discrimination. The Minelabs will blank out a ferrous target

if you are using a dd coil. I have not used a dd coil on a Minelab since I had a gp3000 which is quite a few years ago. The best discrimination a person can use

is to dig every target and see what it is. Early on a days hunt, I will dig most if not all targets. As the day goes on and I have dug a ton of targets (sometimes

100 or more) I will cherry pick out the better sounding targets. It really depends on the ground you are working and experience is a great advantage. You just have

to keep at it and persevere through the dry spells. Something like the old saying goes, "a bad day out detecting is better than a great day at work."

Cheers.

Matt

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I have not used the TDI enough to understand it's capabilities, but I believe it has really good discrimination. The Minelabs will blank out a ferrous target

if you are using a dd coil. I have not used a dd coil on a Minelab since I had a gp3000 which is quite a few years ago. The best discrimination a person can use

is to dig every target and see what it is. Early on a days hunt, I will dig most if not all targets. As the day goes on and I have dug a ton of targets (sometimes

100 or more) I will cherry pick out the better sounding targets. It really depends on the ground you are working and experience is a great advantage. You just have

to keep at it and persevere through the dry spells. Something like the old saying goes, "a bad day out detecting is better than a great day at work."

Cheers.

Matt

Thanks Matt. The one thing I like about the GMT is it will grunt on iron. Sometimes you have to dig down and get closer for it to recognize it, but eventually it will. I might dig some questionable grunts or grunts that are in an area where there's a likelyhood of gold too. But I like the discrimination where you can save yourself from digging yet another square nail or iron fragment. If I get a minelab I will definitely run a DD to take advantage of the iron ID. But if anyone knows about the TDI's capability of IDing iron I'd like to know. I'd like to take advantage of technology wherever I can and not dig every single target when another detector can tell me it's junk from the get-go.

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Wjbell;

go over to the Finds treasure forums, go to the tdi forum and read all the posts by Reg Sniff...

In my opinion the TDI will never be as good as most of the Minelab Pi seriesfor nugget hunting...but it has its own virtues...you will have to use it enough to understand how things are though...it is also a fine silver coin detector...not too good on some meteorites...

depending on how you have it set will determine if iron is distinguisable from non-iron...

fred

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A Minelab with a DD coil and Iron disc turned on will not always blank out iron unless the coil is close enough. You will still have to dig down on many targets.

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Thanks fred I'll check out that forum.

El Dorado, yeah that sounds like the GMT's disc. It doesn't start to work until you get close enough.

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Right now I have a GMT and I'm thinking about the TDI. Does anyone have any experience with both? What kind of depth on bigger nuggets will the TDI get? For example, I have a 6 pennyweight lead piece that looks like a nugget. In an air test I can pick it up with the GMT at 12" Of course in bad ground it would probably be less. Will the TDI ignore bad ground? What do you think the TDI would do in an air test with the same size nugget? What about smaller gold, say a 1/2 gram nugget. How does the TDI do with those?

The TDI compares very favorably with the Minelabs in all areas except raw depth. Your Minelab PI's will get about 25% more depth on most targets using the same loop.

As far as iron disc... in a very small nutshell, if you are hunting in low conductivity you will not hear half the iron trash, generally the larger pieces. You will also not hear the larger nuggets of roughly 1/2 oz or larger.

If hunting in high conductivity you will not hear the other half of the iron trash, generally the smaller pieces. You also will not hear the smaller nuggets.

And if you hunt in the "ALL" conductivity, you will everything, but with different tones. Low conductive will be a high tone, high conductivity will be low tones.

Where your ground balance is set as well as where your pulse control is set will also affect how iron responds. So, just as a Minelab, it can be complex or simple to operate, depending on how much time you take to learn it.

Go to this web site and read up on what users have had to say, especially Reg Sniff. He is an expert.

http://tdi.invisionplus.net/index.php?mforum=tdi&showforum=3

And here is a pic to get an idea of how small a nugget can be found with it using the stock loop. They weren't deep but I heard them.

Digger Bob

post-413-0-27802000-1297804783_thumb.jpg

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Thanks Bob.

It's sounds like even though it doesn't necessarily ID iron, there's things that the machine can do to really narrow it down.

I just registered and will read up on that forum.

Thanks!

The TDI compares very favorably with the Minelabs in all areas except raw depth. Your Minelab PI's will get about 25% more depth on most targets using the same loop.

As far as iron disc... in a very small nutshell, if you are hunting in low conductivity you will not hear half the iron trash, generally the larger pieces. You will also not hear the larger nuggets of roughly 1/2 oz or larger.

If hunting in high conductivity you will not hear the other half of the iron trash, generally the smaller pieces. You also will not hear the smaller nuggets.

And if you hunt in the "ALL" conductivity, you will everything, but with different tones. Low conductive will be a high tone, high conductivity will be low tones.

Where your ground balance is set as well as where your pulse control is set will also affect how iron responds. So, just as a Minelab, it can be complex or simple to operate, depending on how much time you take to learn it.

Go to this web site and read up on what users have had to say, especially Reg Sniff. He is an expert.

http://tdi.invisionplus.net/index.php?mforum=tdi&showforum=3

And here is a pic to get an idea of how small a nugget can be found with it using the stock loop. They weren't deep but I heard them.

Digger Bob

post-413-0-27802000-1297804783_thumb.jpg

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Hey Bob... I wnet over there and registered a couple days ago and saw that Reg replied to a post posted for me but I can't login. It says no user by that name.

It was a good post by Reg. The only problem I see with the TDI is that to discriminate iron you have to use the high and low conductivity to ignore it. So if your ignoring high conductivity you're also ignoring bigger gold and visa versa. But when your in low mode you will also hear low conductivity iron. It seems like a workaround for just putting in a iron discrimination circuit like the GMT has. I don't understand why whites didn't put that in. I'm sure I have a lot to learn about detectors in general but if you have a decent iron id in the GMT why not put something like it in the higher end TDI? If your not sure of the gold size it seems like you have to hunt an area twice to get the most out of the detector.

The TDI compares very favorably with the Minelabs in all areas except raw depth. Your Minelab PI's will get about 25% more depth on most targets using the same loop.

As far as iron disc... in a very small nutshell, if you are hunting in low conductivity you will not hear half the iron trash, generally the larger pieces. You will also not hear the larger nuggets of roughly 1/2 oz or larger.

If hunting in high conductivity you will not hear the other half of the iron trash, generally the smaller pieces. You also will not hear the smaller nuggets.

And if you hunt in the "ALL" conductivity, you will everything, but with different tones. Low conductive will be a high tone, high conductivity will be low tones.

Where your ground balance is set as well as where your pulse control is set will also affect how iron responds. So, just as a Minelab, it can be complex or simple to operate, depending on how much time you take to learn it.

Go to this web site and read up on what users have had to say, especially Reg Sniff. He is an expert.

http://tdi.invisionplus.net/index.php?mforum=tdi&showforum=3

And here is a pic to get an idea of how small a nugget can be found with it using the stock loop. They weren't deep but I heard them.

Digger Bob

post-413-0-27802000-1297804783_thumb.jpg

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Wjbell,

First, you have to email Cougar Jim before you will be registered on the TDI forum. Here is what he wrote in the How to join this forum post at the top of his site.

"From now on if anyone wants to sign up for this forum, they will have to email me direct. There is just to many spammers with automatic software trying to register. When you register, send me your user name and I will approve you.

cougarjim1@charter.net

Cougar Jim"

As for adding the iron ID feature to a PI, well, so far no one has anything better than what White's has now. Granted, you may miss large gold if you use the low conductor mode, but just how many large nuggets have you found that might have been missed???? Personally, I have only a handful of larger nuggets over 1/2 oz and only a couple of them couldn't be found using the low conductor mode and those came off Rich Hill. All others I have I can find using the techniques I mentioned looking for small gold. BTW, if I felt there was large gold there, I would simply search the area twice, which I normally do anyway.

Now, most people search an area multiple times so one could go over the same area using the high conductor mode. One could also use the ALL mode and simply check suspected targets by switching modes as they go. Today, there are very few areas that haven't been beat to death so the checking shouldn't take that long.

Regardless, this ability to ignore iron junk with the TDI works very well, especially if a person takes time to really get to know how it works. I have hunted trash laden sites and dug almost no trash while still digging those targets I suspected to be non ferrous. Keep in mind this isn't something to be perfected over night or learned from a book or a post. It takes practice and experience to become extremely proficient.

A newbie may miss more gold using the techniques but will still be able to hunt areas that will drive a normal PI owner nuts digging the trash. As for those who say they dig everything, well I had a couple people try to keep up in a super trashy area but they gave up very quickly. That dig everything gets really old when you can't move more than a few feet before running into another target.

One of my last trips down to AZ, I loaned my TDI to Tony Pancake, a well known nugget hunter who is very familiar with PI's. It took him only a few minutes and he was like a kid in a candy jar learning new tricks to ignore what little junk fooled the TDI. We hunted for hours right in the middle of some of the trashiest areas of the ghost town of Octave and didn't get tired of digging junk ferrous junk because we dug such a little amount.

Is the design foolproof? Nope, but none of them are. Does it give a guy a fighting chance in super trashy areas, the answer is yes, in my opinion.

Hopefully, someone will actually design and sell to the public a fully working iron reject design but it hasn't happened yet. Dave Emery claims to have a working design and promised to send me on to test last Christmas. I am still waiting.

Reg

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Thanks Reg. When I went to the forum I realized I couldn't even read posts until registered. And the error message is displayed (I think) had a registration link so I just clicked it and registered, not even reading any pinned posts.

"As for adding the iron ID feature to a PI, well, so far no one has anything better than what White's has now."

First of all, I'm new to detecting and don't want to ruffle any feathers. Also, I've heard you really know the TDI and are a person to listen to. So thanks again for the replies. But don't the minelabs have an iron ID feature in all modes where they will "null out" over iron? I have a friend that I go out with sometimes with an extreme. His nulls out over targets that are iron just like my gmt grunts over iron. And it's like the gmt, you have to get close enough for it to make the distinction. But it's the difference between digging something that you have to sift out in your scoop, or just digging down far enough to say OK I can pass on this one.

No doubt there's things you can do to narrow things down. And I know what you mean about learning your detector. In the 6 months that I've had the gmt I mostly know what things are when I hear them. You learn to identify the sounds, how they react to the sweeping of the coil, etc. And with a tdi I'm sure there's more room for tweaks and how things react to them. But still it would be nice to have a switch that grunts or nulls in iron like the other detectors.

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Does it give a guy a fighting chance in super trashy areas, the answer is yes, in my opinion.

I have to say hearing Reg in these forums convinced me to buy the TDI in a way. Also I like Whites machines in general.

I have yet to find a piece of gold with mine and my TDI is currently being fixed at Whites but it is a good machine and will work for my needs I think.

As far as trashy areas it does get old digging all the iron. Perhaps in a ghost town situation I would reject digging many targets but out in the gold hydraulics I dig up all those iron targets. Simply cant tell you how many nice pieces have been recovered UNDER those iron targets. With pits being hammered to death its good practice to go over these trashy areas well because people get lazy. However I am just as guilty walking away from these areas <_<

Simply depends on where I am detecting is all

Jerry

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Jerry,

Sorry to hear your TDI is back at the factory. Unfortunately, Whites ran into a problem with the microprocessor they were using in the early second version of the TDI detector. No one can explain why some micros' are failing but they are. This certainly doesn't appear to be a fault of Whites but of the manufacturer of the micro. In any case, it is being taken care of by Whites.

You are right, there can be gold under a piece of junk. I have scraped areas before and ran magnets over areas loaded with trash multiple times and really haven't been that successful. It is not to say that one really nice piece is lurking under some old junk, because that can happen. So, in some cases it pays to move the trash to be sure. Unfortunately, there are places where moving all or most of the trash becomes a major project to say the least.

What can happen far more often is a piece of gold can be easily hidden under a hotrock and easily missed with a VLF. That is easily proven. Unfortunately, most VLF owners are not that familiar with how to deal with this condition or even with the fact it can happen. It is also one of the key reasons PI's became so popular. Gold that was easily missed by a VLF because it was hiding under a hotrock was now being found with PI's since most or at least many PI's have little or no problems with hotrocks we typically run into here in the US. Unfortunately, all PI's are not the same and there are a few that will have some bigger problems with most hotrocks also. Fortunately, these PI's are not normally used for nugget hunting.

On the bright side, the TDI basically ignores those hotrocks that can cause a nugget to be ignored by a VLF. So, the TDI will ignore most hotrocks and will see the gold beneath it.

Now, moving over to what wjbell had to say, yes, the ML's will null out over iron providing you are using a DD coil. The TDI disc technique will work with both types of coils, the DD or the mono.

Now, the ML will generally go deeper, especially on larger gold, which is what digger bob stated. However, much if not most nuggets found today are just a few grams or less and what I have found is the TDI seems to hold its own on this size of gold, especially if you use the tricks to reduce the noise level that becomes apparent when the GB and sensitivity settings are high. This noise is one reason for the depth difference between the TDI and a PI that costs between 3 and 4 times as much.

If a person can afford the more expensive PI, enjoys nugget hunting, and has the time, then it makes sense to buy the more expensive PI. People like me who don't have the money, the time, and/or live far from most productive nugget hunting sites, have a tendency to look for a less expensive alternative, like the TDI. At least that is why I did.

On the site mentioned earlier, I posted both links and info on what a person might expect for depth when using the TDI. Now, the chart displaying different targets was based upon using the All mode and using an air test. Both of these conditions generally will result in a reduction of depth that one might expect in the field. So, I don't recommend people being concerned over the actual depths or distances, but rather take note of the fact targets change tones and what happens to depth capabilities right at or around the tone change. Knowing this information becomes really important if a person is trying to get the most out of their TDI. Ignoring this info is not something recommended to say the least. Why would a person want to ignore a distance or depth variation of 10" or more on the same target. The key is to know why it happens and how to avoid or deal with it.

The idea of being able to minimize digging trash is great but in areas having little junk then depth should be the major concern. So, then it really pays to know their TDI so they can tweak the controls for maximum depth.

We almost always hear people say how bad the ground is. Well, there are places in gold country where minimal ground balance signal is needed and in some remote areas, no GB is needed. If that happens to be the case, then turning off the GB is an option that adds some serious depth. Using a DD coil at the same time can further reduce any ground noise without sacrificing much depth.

There are a couple of mods that can be done that could help also with this capability, but they will be on the back burner for a while. When I get time, my first priority will be an add on module to reduce noise. If that works as expected, it will help a lot. Unfortunately, my time is focused on personal issues right now and will be for a while.

In all fairness, these depth variations one can see on the TDI, especially on certain size gold, happen on some of the SD's also. At least they did on the SD my dad used to own. The design engineer, Candy, also discussed this weakness of reduced depth on certain targets in an article he wrote many years ago. This strange depth loss on certain targets was first experienced by me when using the SD, years before the TDI. I thought it was strange at the time, but didn't know why it was happening. Now, after looking at the fundamental schematic of the early SD's I understand why. The most basic GB (ground balance) design of the early SD's is similar to the TDI. Keep in mind the TDI is designed around the GS 5, which is an improved GS 4 in basic design, and the GS 4 was patterned after earlier Goldscans which were built in the 80's. The point being the basic design used for the GB on the TDI was being used way before the existence of the ML's and not the other way around.

What the TDI has done is improved the potential disc features of this GB technique so there is the option of sacrificing depth for improved discrimination features. If a person tweaks the GB to minimize the depth loss on a certain target, the disc feature can also be lost, but keep in mind the depth is improved or can be improved significantly. The single tone feature also reduces the noise and reduces the GB action that occurs when the GB isn't perfect. So, operating in the single tone mode has other advantages that can be taken advantage of. The key is to know how and when to do it.

The worst case condition for gold is that gold that transitions in tones from a high tone to a low tone. At or near the transition setting of the GB, the depth loss can be quite significant.

One last thing, if a person isn't willing to learn or doesn't want to learn the tricks, then I certainly don't recommend buying the TDI with the expectation it is going to solve all your needs, because it won't. It takes time, practice, and experience to fully appreciate what one can do with this detector. None of this will be fully learned in a month or two. In reality, new ideas and techniques are being learned by me after more than two years.

Reg

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One last thing, if a person isn't willing to learn or doesn't want to learn the tricks, then I certainly don't recommend buying the TDI with the expectation it is going to solve all your needs, because it won't. It takes time, practice, and experience to fully appreciate what one can do with this detector. None of this will be fully learned in a month or two. In reality, new ideas and techniques are being learned by me after more than two years.

Reg

This is also very true for the Minelab PI...

There is always a bit of a learning curve as you upgrade to the PI from VLF...

Good post Reg and thanks for stopping in as you know more about the TDI than most out there....

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One last thing, if a person isn't willing to learn or doesn't want to learn the tricks, then I certainly don't recommend buying the TDI with the expectation it is going to solve all your needs, because it won't. It takes time, practice, and experience to fully appreciate what one can do with this detector. None of this will be fully learned in a month or two.

Reg

Of course, that goes with any detector. My questions were about making a decision on _which_ detector I want to put the time in with, not whether or not I was willing to put time in learning _any_ detector.

Thanks for the replies. I appreciate your insight.

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Jerry and wjbell,

Sorry if I sounded rough when I mentioned it takes time and practice to get the most out of the TDI. This statement wasn't directed towards you two, but was more for others who just might read the post. The TDI works great, but like any other detector, it isn't perfect and it takes time to learn. If you look most TDI's sold by new owners are done so in the first month or two of ownership.

What makes it bad is there is so much lousy info out there that is not correct or only partially correct that will lead people astray and they won't even know why or what is wrong.

It is like the guy who stumbled into a couple of nice nuggets but had his detector set up such that it would be hard to find the nuggets he did. Just plain luck worked there.

I recommend the use of the single tone mode but I should qualify that and say it should only be used by experienced owners who know what to expect. A newbie that is unfamiliar with the what and the why's of conductors and whether they are a hi or a low conductor should not try to use the single tone mode and expect the best results.

What is worse is people listen to the tone and think they know a high tone from a low tone. Well, when the target signal is weak, this is really quite difficult to do.

This high/low conductor thing has an easy explanation but few fully understand it. What isn't easy to understand is the simple fact gold has no constants, meaning a half oz nugget may sound off with a high tone or a low tone on either the TDI or SD's for that matter. Yes, even the ML's (primarily SD's) with their hi/low (wee/woo) or low/hi (woo/wee) response indicates something specific about the gold and not necessarily what a person might think.

This tone change has to do with the signals and the response of the target with respect to the ground balance setting. Change the ground balance (GB)a little and the tone just might change. It depends upon the object itself and it's time constant as it relates to the ground signal time constant.

All tones start out as a fundamental tone and change from that. Very weak signals will make almost no tone change, thus very weak signals are extremely difficult if not impossible at times to tell from one another in the ALL mode. In fact, in one video people can watch a small piece of gold had a weak signal that didn't change much and was referred to as a low tone response. In reality, the target response was really a high tone response that sounded like a low tone and, as such, shutting off the low conductor mode by selecting the high conductor mode would have eliminated that sound.

The point of what I am saying in this thread is for all those interested and that is, it is not simple to fully understand what is going on. Once a person does, then it will all make sense and will seem easy.

Every object we call a target has a time constant, meaning it takes a specific time for that signal to decay to nothing. Big targets have a tendency to take longer to decay. Higher conductor objects also take longer to decay to nothing. Even the ground has a time constant and as such the signal will decay to nothing.

If a person samples the signal after the signal of a particular object has decayed to nothing, it will not be heard. This is usually what happens when a person tries to detect small gold and nothing is heard. Now, in the case of the ground signal, we use ground balance circuitry to eliminate that signal before the end of the decay. To do this, we sample before the ground signal is gone, then amplify it and finally subtract it from the main signal. When the subtract signal and the main signal are the same in amplitude, the response will be no signal and we are at ground balance. At the same time we are subtracting the ground signal, we are also subtracting some of the target response of all other detectable objects.

Now, if the subtraction process is such that a target signal is gone or is almost gone at the time of the GB sample, then the subtract process will leave the main signal as the dominant response. This results in a high tone. If the GB sample is greater than the main signal, then the tone changes. Keep in mind that we are amplifying the GB signal and then subtracting it from the main signal. On objects with a long time constant, this amplification process results in a signal greater than the main signal so when the subtraction occurs, the dominant signal will be the subtract signal. This will result in a negative signal which transforms to a low tone response.

So, in reality, tones change because of the signal as it relates to the GB setting. Change the GB setting and an object just may change tones. It all depends upon the object and how it relates to the ground signal since the GB range is set to assure the ground signal can be eliminated.

Now, with the quick summary of how the GB works and why the tone change, it is important to know that most smaller gold never has enough signal decay to ever be more than the ground signal. So, a few gram nugget will always have a high tone on the TDI. Generally, a 1/4 oz nugget will also fall in that range. It is when we approach the half oz or somewhere between the 1/4 oz and the half oz size the tone might change. At least, it does on the TDI. What also happens is as the tone change zone is approached, there is a depth loss of detection that also happens.

Ok, sounds bad doesn't it? Well, it happens on the SD's also and probably does somewhat on other models, but I haven't spent enough time with them to know how much. I know it does on the TDI so my concern is how to minimize this depth reduction. Well, the trick is to simply change the GB setting and the depth can increase quite dramatically. Change the GB from the normal 9 to 1 and the same particular nugget just might double in depth of detection. Use the single tone mode and there will be a reduction in noise plus less ground signal problems. Go, slowly or use a DD and the ground response if further reduced.

One of the future mods I may do on early TDI's will be to add a simple switch that will add a couple features. One will be to modify an internal circuit to help reduce ground signals and the other will be to reduce the range of the GB control. Together, these two minor changes can really add depth but at the expense of the disc feature.

Someone might ask just how I know the above mods will work. Well, simple I used them for years on my earlier PI's and they work great. This is how I was able to obtain the same basic depth as that of a 3500 when testing a small nugget (about a half gram) with a low power PI. Actually, I could obtain close to the same depth on a gram nugget with this same detector.

So, there are things for the future.

Reg

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Hi Reg, You sounding rough? Never crossed my mind.

As luck would have it I just got back my TDI from the factory. Cant wait to get out there and use it again. Thanks for the tips as always.

Sorry to highjack your thread some wjbell :rolleyes:

See you in the gold fields!!!

Jerry

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