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Anti dredging arguments


Fsbirdhouse

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Alright,

I have read a couple of arguments on blogs attempting to justify the ban on suction dredges in California.

I would like to read the stated opinion of just one person who is against dredging, that is able to bring up one point other than a dredger spilling gas during refueling (Look out boaters)that can in any logical way justify such a ban.

There are some pretty smart people in the world, and surely there must be one who can support a dredging ban by reason of logical, intelligent discourse to present his/her position by presenting 'facts' in support of that position.

I find the people willing to put their 'Opinions' against dredging in forums and blogs of 'insufficient caliber' to bear the burden. At least so far. I am willing to listen.

I am a fisherman, an almost fanatical fisherman. Salmon, trout, and steelhead are the fish of choice. Always have been. Caught well over a thousand, all over the West.

Alaska, where I lived a number of years and flew the bush in my own Cubs, mostly to fish or hunt. Oregon, where I lived for 5 years and again caught salmon, steelhead, and in Idaho, where I live a hundred yards from the Snake river and have run the Snake in my little jet boat for 26 years. In other words I love to fish, and want nothing more than to see the fish population continue to grow and flourish in all those places.

I have also used 2" dredges, 4" dredges, and 8" machines. I have a little first hand knowledge on both sides of the fence as regards this debate. Just a little.

I get more than a little irritated about the 'floured mercury' issue.

With ample studies done on sediment plumes settling out so quickly behind a dredge, just what do they think mercury is?

It's a metal, it's heavy, it will be the very first thing to settle out of a dredge plume. Even if it's floured, and especially if it's floured, it will quickly find its way thru the gravels and cobbles into a stable abode in the river system. All 2% of it.

It sure isn't moving "Miles downstream" as is claimed by dredging opponents.

The whole debate against dredgers seems to be one long grasping at straws!

Will somebody, somewhere champion the cause of a dredging ban with a just and reasonable argument?

Anybody heard one? Stand up and be counted.

If you can.

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I have done a little dredging threw the years with various size suction dredges. On the south and middle forks of the American and the north fork of the yuba. And what I always found was the sluice always trap-ed mercury removing it from the rivers. And the fish loved the plume they where always there feeding on the insects you kicked up. So in my opinion helped to clean up the environment. I just wonder if the idiots that make these laws have ever witnessed what happens when it floods. I think most of that mercury ended up in the state capital.

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The dredging ban is total, complete, bul lsh it.

I love and respect the environment, but to say that a responsible dredger is ruining it

is laughable if you actually know what happens when you dredge.

This is a political agenda with an environmental-concern mask on.

Every pursuit has people in it who mess it up for everyone and dredging is no different.

We have all seen people whose dredging methods are sloppy and irresponsible.

They should be spanked and given a time out.

But the majority of people I have recreational-dredged with or seen dredging,

are not hurting, or damaging or killing anything.

Dredging is an amazing recreational activity that is exciting and healthy and fun

and ultimately beneficial for the river if it is conducted responsibly.

fwiw,

Flak

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The dredging ban is total, complete, bul lsh it.

I love and respect the environment, but to say that a responsible dredger is ruining it

is laughable if you actually know what happens when you dredge.

This is a political agenda with an environmental-concern mask on.

Every pursuit has people in it who mess it up for everyone and dredging is no different.

We have all seen people whose dredging methods are sloppy and irresponsible.

They should be spanked and given a time out.

But the majority of people I have recreational-dredged with or seen dredging,

are not hurting, or damaging or killing anything.

Dredging is an amazing recreational activity that is exciting and healthy and fun

and ultimately beneficial for the river if it is conducted responsibly.

fwiw,

Flak

As David has said, the environment has nothing to do wit it. There are other things at work here....

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I helped guy dredge for a few days in SW Oregon. The fish and crawdads came swarming to have a picnic on the nymphs that were stirred up. I think that fish know more about the environment than the greenie weenies...fish probably have bigger brains.

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Seems to me this whole recent attack against miners has come about because various groups are accusing the dredgers of killing fish, or destroying their habitat.

The loudest voice currently, have been the Indians and fisherman.

Hello! Fisherman kill fish! All fisherman kill fish!

Don't let 'em come up and say, "But we catch and release". Catch and release kills fish!

http://www.acuteangling.com/Reference/C&RMortality.html

Check graphs toward bottom of page

Maybe we should sue to ban fishing until an environmental impact statement is done.

Lets ask to find out how well a Salmon or Steelhead is able to spawn after an exhaustion event following 'Catch and Release' Can they even make a Redd?

I am not really suggesting that any of that should be done. God forbid. But if we were able to apply the same rules to their 'Sport' that they seek to apply to the lawful pursuit of our rights under the 1872 mining laws, I think they would come out far worse as to their impact on the environment as regards the fish population.

Kill ratio? Dredgers-0. Fisherman-millions and millions.

I think the entire problem boils down to certain groups not wanting to share the outdoors with their fellow Americans.

We're ruining the aesthetics of it for them, and after all, it's all about them.

They have no other argument that holds water.

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Once everyone figures it out that this whole anti-dredging thing has nothing to do with fish or mercury and realize it is about money and politics you will realize the Indians will win this battle. We should just call it the Happy Camp Cancer.

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I am going to be in Happy Camp in about two months, was just downstream from there 26 years ago diving on an 8" dredge.

Had to wait all this time to retire and go back.

Don't know if I'll ever dredge again, but I sure hate to see our rights as Americans going down the chute as they are.

Our politicians are so corrupt, money and power rule at every level, and environmentalists are puppets on their string.

I'm bitching now, while I still have that right left to me, because tomorrow.......well, who knows?

Once we were a nation of law administered with a dose of common sense.

Where'd all that go?

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Once everyone figures it out that this whole anti-dredging thing has nothing to do with fish or mercury and realize it is about money and politics you will realize the Indians will win this battle. We should just call it the Happy Camp Cancer.

Probably right that this is about something other than fish. But having a raving horde of rabid greenies weigh in ranting about homeless fish sure adds fuel to the political fire.

Are native Americans excluded from the dredging ban? Just curious.

Bill C

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:*&$*(: 100% Bill and they're dredging up a storm,just like gill netting fanatics do!! Seperate nation from the US and make their own laws--funny fact is they're what started this whole mess in ancient and current times AFTER being harrassed by the cancer on the klamath :eee: all I can say now is :nono::nono::nono: :pukes:

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Its not about fish, they kill more fish than any white man, its about the KARUK tribe wanting the Klamath River

and the land the Gov. payed them for years ago.

They want all the land from the river back to the Oregon border and from the river south to the Marble Mtn.s

They want to stop anything that the white man enjoys in that river. If they can stop the dredging then they

will stop the fishing and then the rafting. If not for the fight that Dave Mccracken and the New 49's have

put up it would all ready be over. They are fighting us with money we give them every year, money that is

supose to go to the people of that tribe to live on and inprove there life but all they get is lies and

threats if they speak out. I know this for a fact because I lived in Happy Camp. I have sat in there

council meetings more than a few times and seen and heard how they treat there people. I fought with them also

over a different matter, and I won! People that do not or have not lived there have no idea what go's on there.

I have frends in that tribe and I know how they operate and it's not good! As soon as the dredgers beat them

on this lawsuit they will file a nother one and here we go again. There fighting us with our own money folks

and it's not going to stop as long as the stupid state of Calif. lets them file. They say you can't beat a

dead horse and make it eat but by god the KARUKs have found a way to do it.

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1800'

Almost all of the Karuk legal financial support comes from many rich tribes that have casinos and many enviro groups. I do not have to live in Happy Camp to know that, it has been published many times via all the groups that supported SB670. It is that consortium of tribes that bribed The last GOV by agreeing to pay more of their casino revenue to California that caused the Gov try to terminate dredging. His previous stance on dredging was clearly defined when he vetoed AB1032. Once they agreed to the increased fees, then SB 670 was put into play. And please note that all the money "donated" to the new 49'rs has produced zero results..........pretty much the same with the PLP a total waste of hard earned money . Now remember that Stopher is also a part of the government consortium that wants to appease the tribes and he is in charge of the new tainted SEIR study which we all know is very one sided.

Mc Crack and his goons are the vector for this Happy Camp Cancer! They ruined dredging for many that have never even been on the Klamath or worked in salmon waterways.

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It's a very long story but to make it real short. some new 49'rs really pissed of some Karuks one to many times.

In 1985, myself and two friends bought 3 claims from McCracken at Somes Bar on the Klamath river.

Upon examining the claims we bought, and talking to the locals in the area of Somes Bar, we discovered that our lower claim was part of the river the Karuks held to be special to them for a reason I cannot recall now, but we immediately contacted McCracken who offered, without hesitation, to trade us three claims farther up the river, which is what happened.

I seem to recall that the claims at Somes bar, or at least the one in question were dropped from those he had for sale.

I don't believe he was aware of the problem before we discovered there was one, but he acted quickly to resolve it for the peace of all, at that time.

Can't say what New 49ers have done since.

If they were mining on the Res., then I guess they (Karuks)have a right to complain.

Other than that, they got no bitch more than the rest of us.

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Birdhouse..... this has been hashed over to death in the past. Start searching right here on this forum and you will find much more info without causing current issues that Bill is talking about. I did not see the "not again" post, but can only guess....

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Birdhouse..... this has been hashed over to death in the past. Start searching right here on this forum and you will find much more info without causing current issues that Bill is talking about. I did not see the "not again" post, but can only guess....

I don't think Bill was addressing me, and I don't think he meant the "Oh no, not again" thing was because I brought up the dredging ban issue.

That issue was no doubt discussed at length on previous threads, but I was not involved then, and it is an ongoing thing.

If my addressing the issue again somehow leads to a 'snit' between others here, I won't accept responsibility as having caused it. That's up to them.

About the middle of April I'll be in Happy Camp, and I suppose I'll hear a great deal more on the subject I'm sure!

It is beginning to look like I won't be seeing any dredges in the Klamath this year, but I suppose the Rogue will be hosting a veritable fleet of 'em.

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A word about PLP and Dave McCracken. They are both well intended friends of dredgers and other forms of prospecting. Their styles are different. PLP relies heavily on pure, legal arguments and existing opinions. The New 49ers actively are involved in fact finding and evidence gathering in addition to litigation. True, initially PLP's approach was a bellyflop in the Federal District Court. But it ain't over 'til it's over and other litigation ultimately may vindicate the legal arguments initially raised [but not addressed] in the federal case [the federal case was dismissed on a technicality, so no other legal issues needed to be decided]. Meanwhile, there has been much research and empirical testing done with the assistance of Dave McCracken, particularly in regard to alleged mercury dangers. How those data are construed by the courts or in the Legislature yet has to be seen. The Karuk leadership may be one of the primary forces at work to have President Obama designate a huge chunk of land lying between the Klamath River and Oregon as a National Monument. There is a real danger that this actually could happen, but probably not until the final hours of Obama's Administration [regardless whether that will be in two or six years] because the President cannot afford to agitate members of the House while he negotiates economic issues. Both the Karuks and the non-Karuk local community, of course, would stand to better their own economic issues if some sort of informal peace treaty could be negotiated wherein lawsuits were dropped and the larger population is encouraged to trade with the Karuks [rather than the informal boycott of Karuk businesses as now may be the case what with all the hard feelings and polarization that have developed over the years].

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I don't think Bill was addressing me, and I don't think he meant the "Oh no, not again" thing was because I brought up the dredging ban issue.

That issue was no doubt discussed at length on previous threads, but I was not involved then, and it is an ongoing thing.

If my addressing the issue again somehow leads to a 'snit' between others here, I won't accept responsibility as having caused it. That's up to them.

About the middle of April I'll be in Happy Camp, and I suppose I'll hear a great deal more on the subject I'm sure!

It is beginning to look like I won't be seeing any dredges in the Klamath this year, but I suppose the Rogue will be hosting a veritable fleet of 'em.

It had nothing to do with any of your posts... Or the subject matter.

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"The Karuk leadership may be one of the primary forces at work to have President Obama designate a huge chunk of land lying between the Klamath River and Oregon as a National Monument. There is a real danger that this actually could happen"

I've heard this before. Where might I find information about this possibility?

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A word about PLP and Dave McCracken. They are both well intended friends of dredgers and other forms of prospecting. Their styles are different. PLP relies heavily on pure, legal arguments and existing opinions. The New 49ers actively are involved in fact finding and evidence gathering in addition to litigation. True, initially PLP's approach was a bellyflop in the Federal District Court. But it ain't over 'til it's over and other litigation ultimately may vindicate the legal arguments initially raised [but not addressed] in the federal case [the federal case was dismissed on a technicality, so no other legal issues needed to be decided]. Meanwhile, there has been much research and empirical testing done with the assistance of Dave McCracken, particularly in regard to alleged mercury dangers. How those data are construed by the courts or in the Legislature yet has to be seen. The Karuk leadership may be one of the primary forces at work to have President Obama designate a huge chunk of land lying between the Klamath River and Oregon as a National Monument. There is a real danger that this actually could happen, but probably not until the final hours of Obama's Administration [regardless whether that will be in two or six years] because the President cannot afford to agitate members of the House while he negotiates economic issues. Both the Karuks and the non-Karuk local community, of course, would stand to better their own economic issues if some sort of informal peace treaty could be negotiated wherein lawsuits were dropped and the larger population is encouraged to trade with the Karuks [rather than the informal boycott of Karuk businesses as now may be the case what with all the hard feelings and polarization that have developed over the years].

Martin,

That may very all well be true for both parties, but PLP got caught with their pants down on that last case, very poor showing for an attorney especially when he and Hobbs were warned ( By Old Gold Miner) about going after the Feds prior to going after the State. McCrak can gather all the evidence he wants but it is a complete waste of effort cause Stopher gets to pick and choose what studies are going to be used for the SEIR. And as far as I know McCrak is not a scientist. Hell.... all the scientific studies that needed to be done have already been done in AK and are publicly available to show dredging is a de-minimus activity. Stopher will probably not use them either........... Just remember, the CDFG is a State agency the gets some of that Indian money. Crap, Stopher even picked an enviro group out of UC Davis to put the SEIR together. Almost the most tree loving university in CA! The way I see it, is they will allow dredging again, but never in the Klamath area and for the rest of the state it will be severely limited either by dredge size or time allowed in the water........but it is very possible we will never be allowed to run a dredge LEGALLY again in the Golden State. I wish we would have had a conversation about this during our last campfire chats...

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