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John B.

Meteorite Law Update

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Hi All

These guys obviously don't know didly. Well he told me of a fellow that was ticketed and a thought to be meteorite was confiscated. The piece was sent up to ASU he thought and it came back a leaverite. But a $260.00 fine stuck because of intent and the defendent said he was meteorite huntin. So my suggestion to anyone out hunting and questioned is that your looking for leaverites, iron ore or ????? anything but meteorites or artifacts.

snipolatta

Happy Huntin John B.

Hi John,

These threads get my SOAPBOX turned on...

I looked high and low for this case and the fine and could not come up with any documents. If anyone can find any details, I'd sure like to see the documents.

There is a lot left out of this. Fine for what and did the guy get a lawyer and fight it?

Seems to me there are 1000's of dealers selling rocks of all kinds. The City of Tucson, an apparent co-conspirator, who boasts making 100 million dollars in the illegal trade, bartering, buying and selling of rocks of all kinds should get nailed prior to any amateur hunter pursuing his God given right to roam the earth and the right to pursue happiness.

Seems to me if the feds had any real interest, they would go after the Councilmen of Tucson and then all the hotels and motels who are also co-conspirators. And, then shut down the Quartzsite show too. What we need to also know is who supported these laws and if they are still in office get them out. Secondly, we need to find who was in office and let these laws happen and vote them out too! Seems we keep re-electing the same people....for decades....who are part of the problem, not the solution. When have we ever heard from any politician who asked for help in stopping a bill?

Well, we can only look in the mirror to find the problem. We buy foreign made product and wonder why so many Americans are out of work! We complain about China but mostly no one looks to make sure what they buy is made in America!

I could NOT buy my Grandkids toys this year simply because everything in the store is made in China. ARRRRGHmad0229[1].gif

My Detector is MADE IN AMERICA, I try.

Jim

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Eric;

your attached opinion is well written and thoughtful...you certainly put considerable work into your writing. I am too lazy to match your efforts, so, my poorly framed response will have to suffice.

I think you and others are trying to devide the baby with a sword. Everyone will get a piece but the baby is gonna suffer most...My point is you can't say the object is the property of the finder but the scientific information belongs to the People...either the whole thing belongs to me or the whole thing belongs to the People. In a world where information and learning matters more than the holy Dollar that idea might work...the People are not that evolved...in my opinion. To codify a sharing of finds made by the people on Public Land is to introduce another unenforcible law...efforced by the same "crats" without "common sense".

Which brings another point...donot expect "common sense" from enforcement they are not encouraged to interpret the law...and the courts have many times made it clear that that is not the job of law enforcement...enforcement is...the courts and the People judge the Law...

Every law written into the books creates another opportunity for harrassment by the enforcers...and rarely accomplishes the stated mission of said legislation...The "antiguities"law and Mining law come to mind...

enough of this...as long as there are Laws and Bueaucrats there will be stupid intrepretations and overzealous enforcement...because, they do think the land is theirs...Not Yours!

fred

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Hi Guys

Come on Bones we need your tenasity !! What country are we moving to ?? Jim P, You found what I already found squat !! Are you versed with FS or BLM protocal or proceedure ?? Is what I was told correct about public hearing on policy changes ?? George V told me that and he's put them to task a few times making them change or abandon bad policy moves !! He trying to look up anything on it as well. Tommarow I will call the report number off the FS Web Page and ask them where their change of policy came from. The antiquities act and covering it !! Then shut up and listen !! Happy Huntin John B.

John,

Whenever the BLM decides to do something (they decide prior to the hearings), they hold public forums and invite the public to attend.

I've been to these and when I say they decide to do something prior to the hearing, if change is going to occur, the lawyers and the politician and an overwhelming amount of people better show up to change their minds.....because their mind is really already been made up and they come to the meeting loaded for bear. The meetings are mostly a way of appeasing the populous and make them think they are part of the solution. The 4 wheel drive clubs fight this constantly in their quest to keep desert roads open. We can all see how that has worked out.

Jim

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Seems to me there are 1000's of dealers selling rocks of all kinds. The City of Tucson, an apparent co-conspirator, who boasts making 100 million dollars in the illegal trade, bartering, buying and selling of rocks of all kinds should get nailed prior to any amateur hunter pursuing his God given right to roam the earth and the right to pursue happiness.

Seems to me if the feds had any real interest, they would go after the Councilmen of Tucson and then all the hotels and motels who are also co-conspirators. And, then shut down the Quartzsite show too. What we need to also know is who supported these laws and if they are still in office get them out. Secondly, we need to find who was in office and let these laws happen and vote them out too! Seems we keep re-electing the same people....for decades....who are part of the problem, not the solution. When have we ever heard from any politician who asked for help in stopping a bill?

Forgive me, but it seems that accusing the city of Tucson of $100 Million dollars of illegal trade isn't very wise. Are you really saying that Jim? Am I reading that wrong?

I think the dollar figure you're talking about includes sales by dealers of perfectly legal rocks, minerals and fossils. Seems pretty irresponsible to accuse anyone of illegal trade without proof.

Not to mention the bad idea of including it in a discussion about meteorites which draws an unrelated negative correlation. That's just plain "less than smart" in my opinion. Your post paints a dark picture.

Many reputable people (hunters/dealers/collectors) are working very hard to promote responsible meteorite hunting, recovery and collection. And then people make posts like this that can be read wrong by the public who aren't in the know. It's bad enough that the media gets it wrong so often, but when there's negative information and posts like yours within a thread regarding meteorite law and the great land debate, it seems like a very bad thing to do.

Maybe I'm just reading your post wrong? Point being others might too...

Regards,

Eric

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My observation on the issue of a "locatable mineral" is that it is entirely time dependent. Of course, my opinion is academic and holds no more pendant gravity than a gnats scrotum. But, scientific analysis of the Melrose stone showed Au content of up to 0.32 oz per ton. Any extraterresterial object left exposed to the geology (time & pressure) of this planet will decay into it's constituent components. Once this process takes place differentiation is virtually impossible. These decayed products would then become placer deposits subject to further movement from the initial deposition point. In fact, one could argue that meteorites found on the earth are all classified as placer deposits. Also supporting this argument is the work done by Schultz, Klaser, and Cannon in 1982 postulating that Hudson Bay is a probable impact crater. They showed concentric gravity rings extented 1700 miles from Hudson Bay to the Great Lakes. Further confirming the evidence are the large iron ore and nickel dosits found in the region. The only difference between the two examples is the scale upon which they are observed. I might also note that NASA has recently calculated the accreation meteorite dust volume deposited on the earth's surface as 78,000 tons per year. The dispersal of which is ubiqutious. If one were to take the BLM's assertions of ownership literally, then even the constituent dust settling on public lands are protected from removal under the Antiquties Act. There are some in the scientific community that also believe that water was brought to this planet by extraterrestial objects. I will refrain from discussion on the research of the origins of RNA and pre-humanoid life forms now recognized by sceince to avoid offending the sensibilities of some believers. Suffice to say...there are those in government that obviously have thoughts that are out of this world.

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Forgive me, but it seems that accusing the city of Tucson of $100 Million dollars of illegal trade isn't very wise. Are you really saying that Jim? Am I reading that wrong?

I think the dollar figure you're talking about includes sales by dealers of perfectly legal rocks, minerals and fossils. Seems pretty irresponsible to accuse anyone of illegal trade without proof.

Not to mention the bad idea of including it in a discussion about meteorites which draws an unrelated negative correlation. That's just plain "less than smart" in my opinion. Your post paints a dark picture.

Many reputable people (hunters/dealers/collectors) are working very hard to promote responsible meteorite hunting, recovery and collection. And then people make posts like this that can be read wrong by the public who aren't in the know. It's bad enough that the media gets it wrong so often, but when there's negative information and posts like yours within a thread regarding meteorite law and the great land debate, it seems like a very bad thing to do.

Maybe I'm just reading your post wrong? Point being others might too...

Regards,

Eric

Eric,

Are you a lawyer or something? Have you ever been at the legislature or speak in front of committee for what you beleive or assisted in creating law? Have you ever partcipated in your Parties election process or served as a board member in your counties political arena? Have you ever walked your town pounding on doors to get people to vote? What does your congressman say about all of this? If you are lawyer, which I do not think you are, you actually scare me as you have given almost your entire defense away.dry.gif Doesn't seem to wise to be giving away a defense so that the prosecusion can see you coming. Isn't that what you are doing? If you want to make a difference, I am sorry to say...you are preaching to the choir. Suggest you create an article and submit it to some legal journal somewhere so that the legal minds in this country become aware of this stuff or something a little more productive than this thread. Would not your time be better spent doing that? It's obvious you have researched all of this in great detail to not do something with it other than talk about it. Can you show me any case law other than old woman where a meteorite hunter was arrested or sited for hunting, selling, trading or bartering, have in possession meteorites in the USA? I think you need to come up with some case law where this stuff has been used against someone. I am not talking about being sited for trespass. I am still looking for this stuff. I honestly am interested and want to read the case law. Paranoia makes really bad law. Public institutions trade meteorites for their collections. I suppose that's illegal too or is the law selective?

Tuscon representatives, during public news interviews claimed the show brought into the town 100 million dollars to be used within the community. If it is illegal to buy, sell, trade or barter meteorites or other minerals, ignorance to the law is no excuse and Tucson is promoting this as is Quartzsite and other large shows. Meteorites are hunted , bought, sold, traded every single day in the USA. I dont see anyone getting arrested for it. You can read it any way you want but my point is the issue is way bigger than a simple meteorite hunter or a small dealer selling meteorites. If this is stupid, stupid is as stupid does. Those people, making all the money, are doing what about this?? It's a really big picture.

I am not negative, Eric. But you are probably right, I am probably stupid. Cant type or spell worth a darn either. I retired early and I am enjoying life and I earned my stupidity and I did not screw over anyone getting there. There is probably a law against that I have not heard of yet. I will, as I can, support where and when I can. I think, or I hope, everyone here would support, to some extent, legislation that would correct what is out there now.

So, just for conversation sake, instead of opininated name calling, let's say I am a law maker. What are you going to give me as proof the law needs to be changed? You need to convince me my time would be worth pursuing a bill or a rider on a bill that would change law that might take years to complete and odds are it's such a small issue it may just never make it? Who would you suggest may help sponsor such legislation? Who is backing you? Which law makers have you contacted and met with to talk about this issue? What do those people think about it? How many people are being affected by this ... 5000, a million? What forward progess have you made sense this began? So far, I have two opinions.

Regards,

Jim

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Eric,

Are you a lawyer or something? Have you ever been at the legislature or speak in front of committee for what you beleive or assisted in creating law? Have you ever partcipated in your Parties election process or served as a board member in your counties political arena? Have you ever walked your town pounding on doors to get people to vote? What does your congressman say about all of this? If you are lawyer, which I do not think you are, you actually scare me as you have given almost your entire defense away.dry.gif Doesn't seem to wise to be giving away a defense so that the prosecusion can see you coming. Isn't that what you are doing? If you want to make a difference, I am sorry to say...you are preaching to the choir. Suggest you create an article and submit it to some legal journal somewhere so that the legal minds in this country become aware of this stuff or something a little more productive than this thread. Would not your time be better spent doing that? It's obvious you have researched all of this in great detail to not do something with it other than talk about it. Can you show me any case law other than old woman where a meteorite hunter was arrested or sited for hunting, selling, trading or bartering, have in possession meteorites in the USA? I think you need to come up with some case law where this stuff has been used against someone. I am not talking about being sited for trespass. I am still looking for this stuff. I honestly am interested and want to read the case law. Paranoia makes really bad law. Public institutions trade meteorites for their collections. I suppose that's illegal too or is the law selective?

Tuscon representatives, during public news interviews claimed the show brought into the town 100 million dollars to be used within the community. If it is illegal to buy, sell, trade or barter meteorites or other minerals, ignorance to the law is no excuse and Tucson is promoting this as is Quartzsite and other large shows. Meteorites are hunted , bought, sold, traded every single day in the USA. I dont see anyone getting arrested for it. You can read it any way you want but my point is the issue is way bigger than a simple meteorite hunter or a small dealer selling meteorites. If this is stupid, stupid is as stupid does. Those people, making all the money, are doing what about this?? It's a really big picture.

I am not negative, Eric. But you are probably right, I am probably stupid. Cant type or spell worth a darn either. I retired early and I am enjoying life and I earned my stupidity and I did not screw over anyone getting there. There is probably a law against that I have not heard of yet. I will, as I can, support where and when I can. I think, or I hope, everyone here would support, to some extent, legislation that would correct what is out there now.

So, just for conversation sake, instead of opininated name calling, let's say I am a law maker. What are you going to give me as proof the law needs to be changed? You need to convince me my time would be worth pursuing a bill or a rider on a bill that would change law that might take years to complete and odds are it's such a small issue it may just never make it? Who would you suggest may help sponsor such legislation? Who is backing you? Which law makers have you contacted and met with to talk about this issue? What do those people think about it? How many people are being affected by this ... 5000, a million? What forward progess have you made sense this began? So far, I have two opinions.

Regards,

Jim

Hi Jim, Without getting into a pissing contest with you, I still think your accusation is irresponsible. Maybe I'm taking it too seriously or the wrong way, but to make a blanket accusation against all the reputable rock and gem dealers and the City of Tucson for illegal trade at the Tucson show, whether directly or indirectly isn't cool. The burden of proof is on the accuser. This is a public forum. You write something that could be considered an accusation of corruption and conspiracy against particular group of people, and then you ask me if I'm a lawyer? There are many reputable rock and gem dealers who might take offense to your accusations. I don't care to insult the dealers who provide such wonderful specimens to private collectors and science. Sure there are bad apples in every barrel, but the public will weed those out.

What I care about is getting ALL sides of the story out there PUBLICLY regarding the USA meteorite/land issue. No I'm not tipping my hand, I'm not really giving up any secrets, or legal information/strategy that's not already out there. It's there for anyone to research and compile and form their own opinion. There's lots more where this came from. This is only the tip of the iceberg. I'm only giving my opinion.

No I'm not a lawyer and I don't need to be. You could argue I'm an idiot, and you might be right. But, I could argue the same about anyone and I could be wrong. Who's right, who's wrong? No one, and we look like jerks if we try. Where would that get us? Nowhere really.

I've never minced words or bit my tongue with ANYONE. Ask anyone that knows me. I really don't mind that what I say riles you. Really. It gets people talking on all sides of this issue. People are going to talk and you can't stop it. Keeping your mouth shut gets no one anywhere, and doesn't let everyone have all the facts to decide for themselves. I don't care what anyone thinks of me or my opinions. If I were afraid of public opinion I wouldn't say what I'm saying publicly.

Let me make this as simple as I possibly can. The issue is NOT the Tucson show.

You did ask one valid question that I'll answer. "Can you show me any case law other than old woman where a meteorite hunter was arrested or sited for hunting, selling, trading or bartering, have in possession meteorites in the USA?"

Nope... So I guess it's non issue then right? We can all pack our stuff and go home.

Look, it's not illegal to hunt, recover, buy, sell, trade, or barter meteorites. Period. There is NO law that specifically forbids it. The rift is where the BLM govern federal land and is unjustifiably using antiquated and irrelevant laws to govern something which has no laws governing it.

That's the whole point of this. People are afraid. They're afraid they will get their meteorites taken away from them by the BLM/Smithsonian if they admit that they found them on federal land, or if it's a spectacular find. It's not a conspiracy, it's a fact.

The government (BLM and Smithsonian) probably couldn't care less about Ordinary Chondrites. The point is there's no law that specifically says you can't recover meteorites on federal land, but people are mistakenly thinking there is because they are scared to get their meteorite confiscated due to the precedence set with the Old Woman meteorite.

Even this logic isn't justified because there are hundreds and hundreds of meteorites found on federal land which are classified meaning someone had to find them.

The government only cares when it's an "object of scientific interest" and they have used that selectively once with the Old Woman meteorite. I have not seen another case where this has happened so blatantly and people have been afraid of it happening again ever since. The government doesn't care, until it cares. And that's wrong.

What I'm saying is just part of the whole story, and the bigger picture.

We all benefit from meteorite hunting, recovery and collection. People should not be so afraid of losing meteorites they found because it's NOT illegal to find them.

What is questionable is whether someone can sell a meteorite that was found on federal land. This isn't very clear accept that you need a permit to sell any "mineral" found on BLM land. But the mineral laws are inadequate for meteorites. Seems silly to lobby the government for more laws. Right?

Even when you try to apply the highly inadequate/irrelevant Mineral Laws to meteorites, they just don't work. Yes meteorites are rocks. But they consist of multiple minerals. How do you handle that?

Where the problem comes in, is the BLM offices I've contacted don't know. Most times you call you get an intern on the phone who can't really answer any questions. Sometimes you'll luck out and get a geologist on the phone, but even the geologists seem not up to speed on meteorites. No offense to the geologists out there of course, but I've spoken with numerous geologists who know nothing about meteorites. Their job is rocks and minerals, assigning permits, determining whether a mineral is locatable for mining claim purposes, etc.

No one has ever been able to tell me decisively whether a meteorite is falls under the mineral permitting laws. Nor has there been an instance where someone applied for a permit to sell meteorites found on federal land as far as I know. This is due in part to the BLM websites which state that meteorites are illegal to collect on BLM lands. This is only a POLICY and not LAW. It's really a catch 22. No one will apply for a permit because it says on the BLM websites, and is "common knowledge", even though inaccurate, that meteorites are illegal to collect on BLM land. Hmmm? A rather perplexing conundrum.

And before you argue that it's simple. It is, I agree. But the solution to the problem that does not exist is complex.

Figure that one out!

It could be as simple as challenging the BLM policy. BLM policy is NOT legislated law, therefore, one might go out to the desert, find a meteorite on BLM land, and apply for a permit to sell it and see where the cards fall.

I haven't heard of anyone doing that. Has anyone done that yet?

Regards,

Eric

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Snip

This is due in part to the BLM websites which state that meteorites are illegal to collect on BLM lands. This is only a POLICY and not LAW. It's really a catch 22. No one will apply for a permit because it says on the BLM websites, and is "common knowledge", even though inaccurate, that meteorites are illegal to collect on BLM land. Hmmm? A rather perplexing conundrum.

Snip

Regards,

Eric

Eric,

Like I said, you are preaching to the choir. And, IMHO, going about this the indirect wrong way. You are absolutely wasting your time and doing nothing but stirring the pot here. The demographics will prove 90% of the people that might read your stuff and agree with it will do nothing. Your website, best I can tell is a "for profit" venture. If this cause it really true and dear to you, move it away from any profit center. None of the posts in this forum, unless maybe yours, had the original intention of making it over to your web page magazine. I was actually floored when I saw this. It is apparant we have come from two different worlds.

Can you post the URL of the BLM website you mentioned that states it is illegal to hunt meteorites? Thanks.

Jim

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Eric,

Like I said, you are preaching to the choir. And, IMHO, going about this the indirect wrong way. You are absolutely wasting your time and doing nothing but stirring the pot here. The demographics will prove 90% of the people that might read your stuff and agree with it will do nothing. Your website, best I can tell is a "for profit" venture. If this cause it really true and dear to you, move it away from any profit center. None of the posts in this forum, unless maybe yours, had the original intention of making it over to your web page magazine. I was actually floored when I saw this. It is apparant we have come from two different worlds.

Can you post the URL of the BLM website you mentioned that states it is illegal to hunt meteorites? Thanks.

Jim

You are absolutely right about ONE thing Jim. We come from two very different worlds. And I believe (perhaps naively) that I can change them, with the help of LOTS of people.

So far you've said about me:

I'm preaching to the choir: No, I'm having a discussion with fellow meteorite hunters about an important issue on a meteorite hunting and collecting forum. Seems like a no brainer to me. Then again I'm preaching to the choir.

I'm doing it wrong: Really? There's a rule book for what we're all doing here?

I'm wasting my time: Really? I don't think I am. Sorry you feel that way.

You accuse me of funneling traffic to my site or magazine. Yeah, so? I funnel LOTS of traffic back to Nugget Shooter, and have for years! ;)

The link I posted actually went to my www.MeteoritesUSA.com website with a related article which I thought might be intrusive and assuming if I posted it here in it's entirety. It didn't link to my www.MHCMagazine.com magazine website. ;) And Yes, a link does have the effect of allowing one to click and go to another site for more information. YES! I absolutely intend to write about this issue in the magazine. ;)

Were you actually insulted that I provided a link to more information about this issue on my site? So what's your point? Did you notice I linked back to this very Nugget Shooter thread too in that article, and I linked back to Nugget Shooter in many other articles on my site too. Do you seriously believe I did something wrong there? If so, well I don't know what to tell you Jim. ;)

You would actually suggest to me that not only am I doing it wrong, you want me to change my business model. Well, that's kind of arrogant on your part. Wait, should I say, it's none of your business...? Or is that rude? Did I tell you that you were doing it wrong Jim?

No, I said that the accusation you made was irresponsible, and insulting to reputable dealers and apparently you didn't like that, so you feel the need to attack me personally, and publicly, attack my business model, and tell me I'm wrong. Then you suggest I should change my websites and entire business model over to non-profit. Oh no! You're one of them aren't you? ;) Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't think I will.

You said: "The demographics will prove 90% of the people that might read your stuff and agree with it will do nothing."

Jim, while you see the forest, you don't see the tree. You're forgetting something very important. According to your own numbers that means 10% will take action.

I get over 100k people to my sites every year. If only 10% of those take action that's 10,000 people each year! Hmmm... But wait, you have the exponential growth rate (Moore's Law) applies indirectly to any industry. Especially the technology and media markets, of which my websites and magazine are firmly entrenched. The meteorite world is also affected by this so elementary and economic law of growth. That growth will double every two years roughly. Meaning that in 2 years there should be approximately 200,000 visitors to my sites. The numbers are below.

YEAR: Visitors

2010: 100,000

2011: 150,000

2012: 200,000

2013: 300,000

2014: 450,000

The 10% conversion each year is accumulative.

YEAR: Visitors = Action Takers!

2010: 100,000 = 10,000

2011: 150,000 = 15,000

2012: 200,000 = 20,000

2013: 300,000 = 30,000

2014: 450,000 = 45,000

----------------------

TOTAL for 5 Years = 120,000

So basically in 5 years according to your numbers I should have about 120,000 people to take action? Am I really wasting my time Jim?

I don't think so.

Regards,

Eric

P.S. Can we stop wasting time now? Let's get back to the issue at hand. Meteorites!

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Hi Jim and All

Jim I as well are unaware of who was ticketed. Richard Ehren from the Coronado national forest service minerals dept. told me the story. He is the big kahuna downtown in Tucson in that dept. I think he's a wierd one and almost impossible to have a resonable discussion with. But I don't think he would have any reason to tell me a fib ??

Oddly I have seen similar stuff going on in animals, fossils, artifacts, weapons, drugs you name it. It goes on all the time with the feds creating or changing laws and sitting back. Sometimes it's activly involved in the wheelin dealin of whatever the deamed contraban is then a couple years down the road arrests and citations go down. Sadly there are always a few families who are devestated financialy by the legal fees defending themselves for what they thought were minor infractions. There is always the thought that well it's ok everybody does it !! I hope I'm wrong and this policy change can be changed or reversed but with the current regiem and tree hugger enviroment in power. I doubt it will happen and our liberties on public lands and all other areas of our lives are under assault. Heck our government will only allow nonamerican oil companies drill for oil in the gulf. Need I say more. Happy Huntin John B.

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Hi Jim and All

Jim I as well are unaware of who was ticketed. Richard Ehren from the Coronado national forest service minerals dept. told me the story. He is the big kahuna downtown in Tucson in that dept. I think he's a wierd one and almost impossible to have a resonable discussion with. But I don't think he would have any reason to tell me a fib ??

Oddly I have seen similar stuff going on in animals, fossils, artifacts, weapons, drugs you name it. It goes on all the time with the feds creating or changing laws and sitting back. Sometimes it's activly involved in the wheelin dealin of whatever the deamed contraban is then a couple years down the road arrests and citations go down. Sadly there are always a few families who are devestated financialy by the legal fees defending themselves for what they thought were minor infractions. There is always the thought that well it's ok everybody does it !! I hope I'm wrong and this policy change can be changed or reversed but with the current regiem and tree hugger enviroment in power. I doubt it will happen and our liberties on public lands and all other areas of our lives are under assault. Heck our government will only allow nonamerican oil companies drill for oil in the gulf. Need I say more. Happy Huntin John B.

Hey John! What's this I hear you guys are foaming a new State? :hahaha:

The BLM and the way it is run is not unlike other large federal agencies. Each District has the ability to "do it's own thing" provided they do not go below a set national standard. If they have a local issue that gets their attention, they can impose a local policy.

I did have conversation with the OSC in Oregon/Washington and was given the run around. Senator Kyl is on his way out. In a statement he made....Now he does not have to worry about getting re-elected, maybe he can get something done!

In order to predict a possible outcome of a case, you need to see if there is case law that may be applied to a current court case.

Most of the time what worked for the a judge before will work again for another judge. Most BLM offenses have fixed maximum fines and or jail time stipulated within the law. We really do not even know what they would write a ticket up for at this time.

Like you, I would help too. It would be nice to find a probono defense lawyer ahead of time and help educate him or her. I imagine there are lawyers that deal with the BLM issues all the time...I just do not know any. Our current Governor got a defense fund going in a matter of a few days to the tune of $600,000. It was estimated round one with the feds would cost $250,000.

I was always under the impression that a person could gather up to 25 #'s of rock, black sand, etc., per day without permits, etc.

A meteorite can and has weighed under 1 gram. Can you imagine some prosecuting attorney trying to show the judge or the jury an under 1 gram iron and how freaking stupid he would look and then to find out it's value is squat not to mention the fact they would have to prove it was a meteorite and not a fleck of an old iron can.

As far as the oil all I can say is buy American Made products...it is the only power the American people have left. Our buying habits are why American is in the shape we are in!

When I was in the gulf, I had the opportunity to run around in a small boat out to and around the barrier islands. All I saw beyond the islands were non-American ships....big ones!!!

Went hunting for a few hours today. Found 4 BB's, a nickle then a penny and then a quarter! Man...you can really mess with a meteorite hunter with BB's...I thought I really had something!!

Jim

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Hi Jim

Yeah I was thinking of running for governor of baja arizona but was afraid I'ld loose to Grajalva because I can't speak mexican :yikes: !! I can't envission any type of small time crack down or bust either :shrug: . Unless it to set presidence of existing rules or laws ? But the feds put a couple guys or drug dealers trying to skate the charges on watch and love places like this and ebay and make some buys and pal up with some hunters/dealers then it's allover the news of a huge ring of thiefs making millions devastating public lands doing it !! With huge scientic losses to the good ol boys club at the smithsonian and every other university or museum that wants publicity. Most will be petty BS charges but some will be considered kingpins and they are the ones screwed big time trying to defend themselves against a government with all the capital and lawyers it wants to crucify Jesus Christ :whaaaa: !! The feds have done this many times to critter collectors, fossil diggers/collectors, minerals, antiquities, indian artifacts and just about anything they can think of for brownie points ? Most of all it's job preservation for some useless bureaucrat :hmmmmm: . But hey I'm probably just parinoid :unsure: ?? Happy Huntin John B.

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Hi Jim

Yeah I was thinking of running for governor of baja arizona but was afraid I'ld loose to Grajalva because I can't speak mexican :yikes: !! I can't envission any type of small time crack down or bust either :shrug: . Unless it to set presidence of existing rules or laws ? But the feds put a couple guys or drug dealers trying to skate the charges on watch and love places like this and ebay and make some buys and pal up with some hunters/dealers then it's allover the news of a huge ring of thiefs making millions devastating public lands doing it !! With huge scientic losses to the good ol boys club at the smithsonian and every other university or museum that wants publicity. Most will be petty BS charges but some will be considered kingpins and they are the ones screwed big time trying to defend themselves against a government with all the capital and lawyers it wants to crucify Jesus Christ :whaaaa: !! The feds have done this many times to critter collectors, fossil diggers/collectors, minerals, antiquities, indian artifacts and just about anything they can think of for brownie points ? Most of all it's job preservation for some useless bureaucrat :hmmmmm: . But hey I'm probably just parinoid :unsure: ?? Happy Huntin John B.

Well, Thank you for pledging / planning on support. Sooner or later someone is going to get popped. That will be the time to fight it, in court. Eric's research should really help.

Way off topic :unsure: I hope I am not offending anyone...

Grajalva, when he first came to be, started a process to open the border with Mexico so that there would be free passage for people that had family on both sides. He went to each county with a BS unfactual story and most County Supervisors (who did not learn Sh343 in school) supported his goal. I fought it (alone) in my County based on the US/ Mexican treaty (Quadelupe Delgado) and won. The Supervisors just did not know the history of the Mexican border, why it is where it is, etc. Neither did Grajalva (go figure). Once they learned about it, publicly in open session, they changed their minds. It probably help that I chaired my party are the time.

America all ready fought and won that battle. A lot of American lives were lost (my, how we forget or never learn). Now they want to give the border away...again.

If you feel it is important for America to protect it's borders, the people need to get Grajalva out of office down there. He had the overwhelming votes that got him elected from your area. Another thing he did was NOTHING when the local tribe here imposed an illegal tax on Americans. They sent a letter to Verizon and Verizon being as dumb as a box of rocks, based on this letter, began charging this tax to everyone in the area that lived on deeded land. Local businesses would not fight it because much of their income came from the tribes. After several attempts to find out who authorized this , the BIA and the Department of the Interior remained silent and no one would legally respond. I requested assistance from Senator Kyl and Senator McCain and actually got it!! McCain went toward Verizon and the FCC and Kyl...if I remember right, went toward the Department of the Interior. After about a month, the tax was removed from the bill. They had already collected 1.6 million dollars from this illegal tax. The point of that particular story is that most EVERYONE in this town did not pay the illegal tax any attention!! Did not care that they were taxed....nothing! I could not believe it. This is how unconscious Americans have become. Instead of "Don't Tread On Me", it's now "Do Nothing And Like It". Instead of an Eagle....it's now a Skunk! All we have to do is to look into a mirror to see who is at fault.

Anyway, you sure know how to get me on a roll.confused0082[1].gif

My boots are Made in America!

Jim

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Hi Jim

You are totally correct about Raul Grajalva :angry-smiley-010[1]: !! He and Giffords were on a Seirra club rampage to close down lots of southern Az's public lands to prospecting boorb . Both are bad news but Raul is the worst :*&$*(: !! Happy Huntin John B.

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It's not really necessary to wait for someone to be charged under a criminal violation. Any person in possession of a meteorite found on public land can seek a declaratory judgment pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §§ 2201-2202 in the US District Court establishing the rights of the parties involved, i.e. ownership prior to transfer to a third party. Although, I see a couple of caveats. First and foremost, subsequent prosecution by a pissed off US Attorney's Office. It may be safer to seek judgment in mass. I suspect an action brought by 100 or more plaintiffs would discourage such a position due to the sheer number of criminal Defendants involved.

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Hi Bob

Then we can get into Tort law and counter sue the BLM. There are a lot of remedies for this but my law mind is tired and the fact there is no law against hunting for meteorites is a moot point. The last time I encounterd a BLM person in the field he was willing to trade info on native sites for info on the Old Woman fall. Legal is a big word here and most have no understanding for the remedies.

Wayne

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I was just trying to throw a little fuel on the fire...then here you come with a bucket of water :rasberry: How's a trouble maker posed to have any fun round cheer...

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It's not really necessary to wait for someone to be charged under a criminal violation. Any person in possession of a meteorite found on public land can seek a declaratory judgment pursuant to 28 U.S.C. §§ 2201-2202 in the US District Court establishing the rights of the parties involved, i.e. ownership prior to transfer to a third party. Although, I see a couple of caveats. First and foremost, subsequent prosecution by a pissed off US Attorney's Office. It may be safer to seek judgment in mass. I suspect an action brought by 100 or more plaintiffs would discourage such a position due to the sheer number of criminal Defendants involved.

Any action taken in the US Courts should be initiated in the US Court of Claims, not the US District Court. The USDC handles criminal matters and is historically biased in favor of the government. The USCofC deals with property rights issues, ownership, and etc. and has ruled against the government on many occassions concerning some very sensitive issues, such as grazing rights and water rights in the Western US.

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