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Geo-George

Illegal dredging/sluicing?

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Here's one for ya....

I have a placer mine on my Calif. claim.

There is a shaft that I have been working that takes on a couple of feet of water each spring.

It is about 150 feet from an active stream.

All water remains within the mine, I just recirculate the water for my dredge/sluice.

I remove the tailings to outside the mine, but the water remains inside.

I'm working an old stream bed with a lava cap.

Am I in violation by using a dredge in the mine?

I wonder now, if I file a "Lode" claim within my "Placer" claim, would the same laws apply?

I know there has got to be a way around that stupid law.

I break away the material with a pick and suck it up with the dredge.

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Here's one for ya....

I have a placer mine on my Calif. claim.

There is a shaft that I have been working that takes on a couple of feet of water each spring.

It is about 150 feet from an active stream.

All water remains within the mine, I just recirculate the water for my dredge/sluice.

I remove the tailings to outside the mine, but the water remains inside.

I'm working an old stream bed with a lava cap.

Am I in violation by using a dredge in the mine?

I wonder now, if I file a "Lode" claim within my "Placer" claim, would the same laws apply?

I know there has got to be a way around that stupid law.

I break away the material with a pick and suck it up with the dredge.

So you not working a stream, and only recircuating accumulated water inside a shaft ?

I'd think not related but that's a logical assumption.

Not that government has any logic these days.

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Here's one for ya....

I have a placer mine on my Calif. claim.

There is a shaft that I have been working that takes on a couple of feet of water each spring.

It is about 150 feet from an active stream.

All water remains within the mine, I just recirculate the water for my dredge/sluice.

I remove the tailings to outside the mine, but the water remains inside.

I'm working an old stream bed with a lava cap.

Am I in violation by using a dredge in the mine?

I wonder now, if I file a "Lode" claim within my "Placer" claim, would the same laws apply?

I know there has got to be a way around that stupid law.

I break away the material with a pick and suck it up with the dredge.

George,

Unfortunately yes you are in violation of SB670 which states...

"Under existing law, it is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge in

areas, or in or within 100 yards of waters, that are closed to the

use of vacuum or suction dredges..."

http://www.equalaccess2justice.us/docs/article2448-attachment1.pdf

The fact that your only 150 feet away from an active stream instead of the 300 feet (100 yards) would put you in violation of SB670. :whaaaa:

Even if you filed a Lode Claim, I believe you would still be in violation of SB670 according to the way it is written. :*&$*(:

Skip

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George,

Unfortunately yes you are in violation of SB670 which states...

"Under existing law, it is unlawful to possess a vacuum or suction dredge in

areas, or in or within 100 yards of waters, that are closed to the

use of vacuum or suction dredges..."

http://www.equalaccess2justice.us/docs/article2448-attachment1.pdf

The fact that your only 150 feet away from an active stream instead of the 300 feet (100 yards) would put you in violation of SB670. :whaaaa:

Even if you filed a Lode Claim, I believe you would still be in violation of SB670 according to the way it is written. :*&$*(:

Skip

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So he needs to move a recirculting sluice further away and bring the dirt outta the hole to his location ?

Just wondering ?

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Thanks all, I really apreciate the input.

The only route I can figuire to take at this time, is to hand load the recirculating sluice and do away with any suction devises that move material. I figure I can still use the recirculating sluice to just move the water around.

darn! :angry-smiley-010[1]:

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:aw-shucks: this sucks :nutty: I know what I'd do but I have had a attack of don't give a flying furry :grr01: John

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convert the dredge to a highbanker fed by a suction nozzle

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I've never heard anyone mention, or maybe not realize that.....

A placer claim is 660 feet wide, and 1320 feet long.

If a stream runs the length and center of a claim, you can not dredge or "boom" within the boundries of the claim, 'cept for the last 30 feet on either side. When I refile my claim this fall, I'm seriously concidering turning my claim 180 degrees, thus giving me half the length along the stream, but an additional 375 feet to either side that I can work by "booming", and such.

Doesn't solve my mine issue, but I'll try anything.

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convert the dredge to a highbanker fed by a suction nozzle

Still a recirculating sluice, no material may pass through the "suction nozzle", right?

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I guess what I am talking about is a power sluice like this one

post-1252-127094405497_thumb.jpg

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Steve, George,

The highbanker combo/power sluice would still be considered a suction dredge I'm afraid because of the suction nozzle.

To be legal I would just run a recirculating sluice using the dredge pump and hand load the sluice, you can also use the pump to get more water from the stream to add to your diggings if needed, there is nothing illegal about using the pump to pump water from the stream as long as the water doesn't return back to the stream, you would just be going by the regulations for highbanking.

You can also use a "handdredge/suction tube" to help suck materials from the cracks and crevices, the DFG has termed these devices to be legal within the active stream.

Ebonbetta,

Quote:

"So he needs to move a recirculting sluice further away and bring the dirt outta the hole to his location ?

Just wondering ?"

No he wouldn't have to move the sluice as long as he didn't use a suction hose or suction device, he would be legal per highbanking regulations.

Skip

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Ya,I get it.

Still a "suction devise".

Been lookin' at a bilge pump, no suction nozzle.

According to what I have read, ya can't even have a "Dredge" on the claim, period.

( Well, not supposed to anyway,....)

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I've never heard anyone mention, or maybe not realize that.....

A placer claim is 660 feet wide, and 1320 feet long.

If a stream runs the length and center of a claim, you can not dredge or "boom" within the boundries of the claim, 'cept for the last 30 feet on either side. When I refile my claim this fall, I'm seriously concidering turning my claim 180 degrees, thus giving me half the length along the stream, but an additional 375 feet to either side that I can work by "booming", and such.

Doesn't solve my mine issue, but I'll try anything.

George,

You may want to consider another claim or two running parallel to your existing claim, if you would be able to turn your claim 90 degree, the areas parallel to your claim would have to be open to claiming anyway, just a thought.

If there is good gold in the stream I would try to keep as much of the stream under claim as possible because I do think the ban will end at sometime in the future, how long in the future and to what degree everyone will be able to dredge is unsure at this time, but I'm an optimist, again this is just my thoughts.

Skip

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Ya,I get it.

Still a "suction devise".

Been lookin' at a bilge pump, no suction nozzle.

According to what I have read, ya can't even have a "Dredge" on the claim, period.

( Well, not supposed to anyway,....)

George,

I wouldn't go and buy another pump, just use the pump from your dredge at idle, as long as you don't use the jet/nozzle, etc. it is a legal pump, you can use any of the hoses as long as your not using them to suck material.

I would remove the jet and nozzle from the claim to be legal.

Skip

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The nearest claim to mine is at least 2 miles away.

Uh, right, 90 degrees. :tisk-tisk:

We'll just have to wait and see what happens with the ban. :huh:

Won't expand my claim, I'd have to take on a partner. That doesn't seem to work out. :nono:

I've run into issues before. :aw-shucks:

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Steve, George,

The highbanker combo/power sluice would still be considered a suction dredge I'm afraid because of the suction nozzle.

To be legal I would just run a recirculating sluice using the dredge pump and hand load the sluice, you can also use the pump to get more water from the stream to add to your diggings if needed, there is nothing illegal about using the pump to pump water from the stream as long as the water doesn't return back to the stream, you would just be going by the regulations for highbanking.

You can also use a "handdredge/suction tube" to help suck materials from the cracks and crevices, the DFG has termed these devices to be legal within the active stream.

Skip

Skip, THAT statment in bold above is NOT TRUE.....take a look again at the picture that Eldorado posted. The pump has a flexible hose with filter to insert into the steam, it pumps water only! Remove any mention of "dredge" from this picture. The pump is set-up close to the water source and the hose / filter is placed in the water. Depending on the distance from the water course additional hose may be required to reach the high-banking unit.

Now the business end or suction nozzle of the high-banker has nothing to do with the dredging "process" it simply does the same thing in sucking-up material "on land", your NOT sucking-up in-stream river material and discharging it as an in stream dredge would. With a high-banker, as you correctly note a holding discharge pond must be made so as not to allow "sediment" to re-enter the river / stream or you could be fined.

Also, the CA DFG has responded to the "high-banking" guestion and found it very "legal" under the restriction of SB670.....I'll see if I can find it again!

Eldorado very correcty attached the picture of the KEENE HighBanker!

Gary

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150 yards=450' you may not in any way suck a darn thing WITH A SUCTION NOZZLE OR POWERJET--YOU GUYS GONNA PAY THIS GUYS FINES AND DO THE JAIL TIME TOO?? JUST CALL THAT HORSES ARSE STOPHER HE CREAMS IN HIS JEANS DENYING FOLKS THEIR RIGHTS--John

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Skip, THAT statment in bold above is NOT TRUE.....take a look again at the picture that Eldorado posted. The pump has a flexible hose with filter to insert into the steam, it pumps water only! Remove any mention of "dredge" from this picture. The pump is set-up close to the water source and the hose / filter is placed in the water. Depending on the distance from the water course additional hose may be required to reach the high-banking unit.

Now the business end or suction nozzle of the high-banker has nothing to do with the dredging "process" it simply does the same thing in sucking-up material "on land", your NOT sucking-up in-stream river material and discharging it as an in stream dredge would. With a high-banker, as you correctly note a holding discharge pond must be made so as not to allow "sediment" to re-enter the river / stream or you could be fined.

Also, the CA DFG has responded to the "high-banking" guestion and found it very "legal" under the restriction of SB670.....I'll see if I can find it again!

Eldorado very correcty attached the picture of the KEENE HighBanker!

Gary

Gary,

I'm really (meaning positively) sure that I'm right, a highbanker combo setup to "dredge" as it is setup in the picture Steve posted is a "dredge" on legs rather than floats and the material is going into the hopper instead of a crashbox or flare, you can use the equipment in the picture setup as a highbanker, leaving the suction attachments at home and be completely legal.

The key words in SB670 that will confirm this are "a vacuum or suction dredge" there is no defining words that state that the "a vacuum or suction dredge" has to be mounted on floats, legs, etc., you could run a sluice on floats in the active stream as long as you aren't using any suction devices (other than a hand operated PVC suction tube) and you are hand loading the sluice and be completely legal under the wording of SB670.

You can not run the equipment in the picture setup as a highbanker within the active stream per highbanking/power sluicng regulations, unless you are loading "wet" stream material in to the highbanker and not "dry" bench material.

If you use this setup or any highbanker combo setup running in dredge mode, it is a dredge, and if you use it within 300 ft (100 yds) of an active waterway and DFG or any other enforcement officer seeing you doing so and the dredge ban is still active you will be cited for violating the dredge ban SB670, whether you will be fined/jailed or just warned is up to the individual officer issuing the citation.

Anyone considering using a setup similar to the picture feel free to contact Mark Stopher of the DFG and show him the picture to confirm this before doing so.

Skip

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Mark Stopher will tell you a pan is illegal if he feels like it....... guy is nothing more than one of the bad cancer cells infecting what we like to do! It is a highbanker! Especially if used where no water or material is taken from or returned to the stream.

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Mark Stopher will tell you a pan is illegal if he feels like it....... guy is nothing more than one of the bad cancer cells infecting what we like to do! It is a highbanker! Especially if used where no water or material is taken from or returned to the stream.

Steve,

I agree that it is a highbanker, but when you attach the suction hose/nozzle it becomes a dredge/suction device, and in effect you would have to use it 300ft from the active waterway per SB670.

I don't like Mark Stopher anymore than everyone else who is affected by the ban, but he is the "a$$ho1e" in charge of what can be done at this time!!! :*&$*(:

Skip

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I put this situational question to Jerry Hobbs. Showed him the picture of the power sluice and the scenario of the mine. His opinion is the same as me, the 300' rule only applies to a suction dredge. GG, modify your equipment and go get that gold! Feel free to contact Jerry yourself, I think he is one of the most, if not the most knowledgeable persons regarding SB-670 ..........

Skip, Stopher is not in charge of anything more than the CEQA process and getting the EIR done...........and to make sure the CDF does not step on their *icks while doing it.

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I put this situational question to Jerry Hobbs. Showed him the picture of the power sluice and the scenario of the mine. His opinion is the same as me, the 300' rule only applies to a suction dredge. GG, modify your equipment and go get that gold! Feel free to contact Jerry yourself, I think he is one of the most, if not the most knowledgeable persons regarding SB-670 ..........

Skip, Stopher is not in charge of anything more than the CEQA process and getting the EIR done...........and to make sure the CDF does not step on their *icks while doing it.

So, I understand that,....

I can use a recirculating system for the water, but I may not use suction to retrieve the material off the mine floor, once it has been chipped from the wall or floor, correct?

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George,

You do what you think is best for you in your situation, Jerry is a great authority on the laws, but he will not be the one to issue any citations, but I'm sure the PLP and Jerry will come to your defense if you are cited, but I would contact Jerry/PLP if I were you to insure that would be the case, and be prepared to fight if you are cited.

Most likely if your claim is remote enough no one would be the wiser if you do so, being that the DFG doesn't have the manpower to catch everyone if they indeed would be interpreted as breaking the law, but it is a risk that you must be willing to take.

I will not say what I would do if I were in your shoes, all I have posted is my option of how I read the SB670 dredging ban, and how I think the DFG will react to what has been discussed is performed out on a claim, which is all this topic is, a discussion/options, I have not read anywhere in this thread that someone has openly admitted to knowing going out and breaking any laws.

Skip

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