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John B.

Interesting info Kinda relevent

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Hi All

I'm really pissed about my friend getting ticketed for non relavent to archeology trash. Of course non relavence is my personal opinion. I had an opportunity yesterday to spend a couple hours down at the Forest Service yesterday. I started venting on one of the mineral ologists about one of the others mineral guys in there telling me that there were no more artifacts left in greaterville and to haul out the trash. Thinking maybe this fellow was setting me up for the ticket Al got since Al was in the close vacinity of my claim there. I mean what are the odds in the 20 + years of beepin down there I've never seen an enforcement officer from the Forest Service and all the rangers I met were nice folks. Well after I was done there I asked to visit with an archeologit. So Chuck took me downstairs to that department and there I visited with one. He told me that years ago he and a pal went to greaterville to find a nugget with a detector and found the same kinda crap we've been diggin for years. I suggested we set a bucket inside the fence line a kentucky camp to deposit all the crap one digs in a day. Then they could sift throught it for anything they deem relevent or worthwhile, recycle the crap that has no value and let the freinds of the kentucky camp peddle the rest to tourists. Well his reply was worse than I thought. The artifact has relavence to it's find location and an aluminum 51 year old beer can can be an artifact. I guess somebody ( tax payers) have to pay their wages. Today I had a chat with a lawyer friend of mine asking him search and seisure rights with the forest service enforcement division. His opinion was that they indeed have the right especially if there is probable cause ( metal detector , shovel , pick ,bucket, pouch )!! I also found out that us folks in the south have an even more disturbing set of circumstances. If you are within one hundred miles of the international border you are always subject to full search by almost any government entity. I've been told that the new omnibus bill has many new changes we all will not like.

Fucked in Southern Az

John B.

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John it is a sad situation for Sure,Artifacts when investigated need to be sorted by location.So the bucket thing must have pissed them off,I hope Al can get a dismissal or lowered fine,Seems like times are changing.So if we have free time we need to be out there enjoying it while we can..

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Hi All

Ran into a guy from Florida last week in Quartzsite,

he pulled out a .50cal bullet a beer can (opened with an

opener) and 2 square nails! I told him to mail them home,

do not carry them around. Anyhow I think Denny said it

best, Get out there and enjoy it while you can. That's my

plan!!

Best Regards

Herb

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Guest goldstudmuffin

Hi John,

If you set a bucket inside the fence line at kentucky camp I'll be happy to stop by and leave a deposit!

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Hi John,

If you set a bucket inside the fence line at kentucky camp I'll be happy to stop by and leave a deposit!

I think we should all leave a deposit in a bucket and send it straight to who ever is in charge over there. I will have a fresh deposit ready about 10 minutes after I have my first sip of coffee in the morning.

-Joe

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I have gave a little thought to the over 50 years

is a artifact thing.

Most of the guys on the forums was around then some

a lot longer. If the Forest Service is curious about

what was going on then,why don't they just ask. :inocent:

So if we are over 50 then we are living artifacts. The

Forest Service has no right disturbing us on public land.

If that don't work ,and you are over 50,you can just say

artifacts my butt. I just came back to get my stuff. :olddude:

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Saw mill i like that one, But the fact,s are rules are rules we have all been talking about this for awhile,The fact that they are disturbed{artifacts} is enought to get the FS guys pissed.I hope they do not see these forums, Because as we bicth poor Al will be the one paying the price,We need to think before we go pushing are weight around :twocents: yea we don,t like it but you aint going to win that fight that way. :inocent:

Joe were the hell have you been long time no see,

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The "ticket" is total bull chit and I hope to get one just like it someday!

Take it to court and force a jury trial. Demand the FS guy prove the trash you collected came from public land as well as PROVE how long they have been on that land prior to you having "disturbed" them. Then ask for your expenses and court costs in the settlement. I cannot imagine them even considering walking into a court room to prosecute this kind of a case. If they do and they win (doubtful) you will end up paying the same fines or a reduced fine negotiated in the pre-trial hearing. Either way a win.

Just my opinion.... Your mileage may vary.

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Here are the Bull.hit I mean legal citations:

Code of Federal Regulations, 36 CFR 261.9: "The following are

prohibited: (g) digging in, excavating, disturbing, injuring, destroying,

or in any way damaging any prehistoric, historic, or archaeological

resources, structure, site, artifact, or property. (h) Removing any

prehistoric, historic, or archaeological resources, structure, site,

artifact, property."

USDA Forest Service Manual Direction (draft): "Metal Detector Use. Metal

detectors may be used on public lands in areas that do not contain or

would not reasonably be expected to contain archaeological or historical

resources. They must be used, however, for lawful purposes. Any act with

a metal detector that violates the proscriptions of the Archaeological

Resources Protection Act (ARPA) or any other law is prosecutable.

Normally, developed campgrounds, swimming beaches, and other developed

recreation sites are open to metal detecting unless there are heritage

resources present. In such cases, Forest Supervisors are authorized to

close these sites by posting notices in such sites."

ARPA, 16 U.S.C. 470cc: "No person may excavate, remove, damage, or

otherwise alter or deface or attempt to excavate, remove, damage or

otherwise alter or deface any archaeological resources located on public lands or Indian

lands unless such activity is pursuant to a permit. . ."

For more information, contact Mark Bruhy, Supervisor's Office, 68 S. Stevens St., Rhinelander, WI 54501, 715-362-1361, or email mbruhy@fs.fed.us.

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Lotsa luck. so you would purger yourself in court,It is not rocket science that a square nail is a certon age,Now if it was from some were else maybe ,But that would lead to another mess,I hope he get,s off this one,But the ranting and raving at his expence{al}seems counter productive,A small wave makes no wake,so to say. :twocents:please excuse my spellin only 6 days out of surgery :stupidrb:

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I have a box of square nails on my shelf in the shop, cut nails also. The burden of proof is on them, not the person being cited, at least for now (things are changing fast though). The prosecution MUST prove the artifacts age and where it was prior to the suspect disturbing it. I don't see how that can happen in this case with the info given me.

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Denny

I know all about the disturbing an artifact thing.

I have spent about a zillion hours in pre work meetings,

and job site tours with the Forest Service.

What I want to know is,while digging a target,and an old

bullet or piece of junk rolls out. What happens when Smokey

the bear walks up,and gives you a ticket for disturbing an

artifact?

There is a difference in intentionally disturbing artifacts,

and accidentally disturbing one. Intentionally is going into

a known or posted historic site or public land for the purpose

of removing or disturbing artifacts.

Accidental disturbances during the course of a legal activity

on public land can not be cited. This is what makes a big

difference in court.

I have never met anyone with Xray vision. Most mining areas

are littered with old junk. I bet everyone that has detected

or prospected has disturbed a so called artifact.

The truth is if you can find a piece of forest land that

doesn't have metal junk over 50 years old its rare.A lot of

the stuff is simply where someone dumped their trash,shot

at game,had a camp,corral,feed trough,or fell off of ordinary

equipment while working. Nothing historical about that junk.

Everyone and their dog had square nails.They used them for

everything and they are scattered everywhere. I have pulled

a few pounds of them out of log truck tires.

The 50 year thing is just a lame way to stop anyone from

doing anything on public land,by some over zealous green

Forest Service types. The 50 year thing never stopped them

from dozing and burning much older structures and sites.

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Saw mill i like that one, But the fact,s are rules are rules we have all been talking about this for awhile,The fact that they are disturbed{artifacts} is enought to get the FS guys pissed.I hope they do not see these forums, Because as we bicth poor Al will be the one paying the price,We need to think before we go pushing are weight around :twocents: yea we don,t like it but you aint going to win that fight that way. :inocent:

Joe were the hell have you been long time no see,

I have been right here Denny, How's everything?

-Joe

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Saw Mill like i said i hear you 100%.It is the intent,And 50 yrs is rediculous,When i first saw the law i thought it was toltal BS also i felt it was a in for them to interpret the law towards there own adgenda,{That is my pariniod mind at work}Joe I,am fine just had the old knees redone last wendsday,already walking around and even went to work.So i figure i will be out in the hills in less than 30 days, You still making those pick,s ?hope you all are doing good in this bs economey.

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Saw mill i like that one, But the fact,s are rules are rules we have all been talking about this for awhile,The fact that they are disturbed{artifacts} is enought to get the FS guys pissed.I hope they do not see these forums, Because as we bicth poor Al will be the one paying the price,We need to think before we go pushing are weight around :twocents: yea we don,t like it but you aint going to win that fight that way. :inocent:

Joe were the hell have you been long time no see,

Denny,

Good to hear you are up and running or walking again after the knee surgury. Also nice to see Joe posting again. I’ve read the three threads here on Al’s recent saga with the FS and like John B and others I’m pissed as well, because the entire matter was taken way beyond the rules and regulations as interpreted by one FS ranger / district and in my opinion Federal law reletive to prospecting on public lands with a metal detector.

In all due respect to your above quote, I for one do hope the FS people see this discussion on the forum (I’m sure they’ve already tapped into it by now) and other forums where its posted. This is a matter which should Not be taken lightly by anyone using our public lands. If the FS is allowed to prevail via “simply paying the citation”, our legal rights will continue to errode and this matter will spread like a cancer to other FS districts around the country.

Also pissing off a FS ranger implies prior intent to willfully do so. With that in mind, to willfully destroy, keep, etc. Historic Artifacts also implies the same!

I’ve said this before on one of the other threads here, this “ranger” was way out of line with the laws / regulations and if this matter was further persued in court against the FS, the prosecutions burden of proof would “fail” to the benefit of Al the defendant!

If Al needs help in fighting this I’ll contact Jerry Hobbs at the PLP and we’ll donate $100.00 to the organization on Al’s behalf.

I’m on the same page with Sawmill, LL and others here from a legal standpoint. And thanks John B for bringing this to our attention!

BTW, Al I have a question, did the ranger confiscate the “trash” that you were cited for or do you still have it in your possession, and / or was each piece of “trash” cataloged by the ranger in the citation issued?

Gary

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Saw Mill like i said i hear you 100%.It is the intent,And 50 yrs is rediculous,When i first saw the law i thought it was toltal BS also i felt it was a in for them to interpret the law towards there own adgenda,{That is my pariniod mind at work}Joe I,am fine just had the old knees redone last wendsday,already walking around and even went to work.So i figure i will be out in the hills in less than 30 days, You still making those pick,s ?hope you all are doing good in this bs economey.

Yea doin alright, 2009 was one of my best years. Go figure, now I am stressin about taxes...

I am still building the picks though I have taken some time off from it. In my absence it turns out there are quiet a few pick builders these days. Competition is good for the consumer. On a more serious note folks we are losing our hard earned freedoms. It is time to do something, anybody got a plan?

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Hi All

In the couple of chats I had with Al. He apparently promptly paid the ticket rather than fool with these guys :whaaaa: . I only wish I would have known sooner and somehow could have taken on the fight :angry: . I don't think he needs it but I would have paid his legal fees just to put a stop to this crap :shrug: . I'm certain the clubs in Tucson as well would have chipped in :thumbsupanim . There is no doubt in my mind this ranger will be praying on the locals for awhile until someone challenges him and shoves it up his back side :nono: . They better have some form of expensive age dateing and not opinions to prove thier case as well :( . Well that's my opinion and I'm pissed :angry-smiley-010[1]: . Happy Huntin John B.

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The truth is if you can find a piece of forest land that

doesn't have metal junk over 50 years old its rare.A lot of

the stuff is simply where someone dumped their trash,shot

at game,had a camp,corral,feed trough,or fell off of ordinary

equipment while working. Nothing historical about that junk.

What is historical is that Americans WERE there and in most cases they were MINING or LOGGING. We can't do that today.

Those were the Americans who built this country and made it what it is today. The liberals in this country are doing their best to take access to the land away from the people. They are writing laws and closing roads left and right. This has to stop. As it is in so many cases, the liberal interpretation of a law (from the Constitution to the meaning of "is") is totally different from what the original authors intended.

America is no longer the land of the free. It is a land ruled by thousands of bogus laws written by bureaucrats who don't have any idea about what they are doing and they are becoming more absurd every day.

Al C, unless there is something missing in this story, I am real sorry to hear that you didn't fight that citation.

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.....Al C, unless there is something missing in this story, I am real sorry to hear that you didn't fight that citation.

I also echo Slims words, I did call PLP today and was told they had Not heard of this event but were willing to take a further look-see if I was able to provide more info from those more in the know on the matter. I emailed them again tonight and said, at this time it's a pretty mute issue because the fine was paid.

This is the type of event that needs to receive publication time in a magazine or internet news

article before the liberal news publications get wind of it and "spin" their wheels off with their slant on things, hell that's probally already in the works!

Al C, to you and yours I wish the best in all your endevors. It is my deepest hope that a some point this nonsense gets resolved or at least finds an ankle bracelet firmly attached to it!

Gary

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