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Duke Of York

Wanting to keep the sand.

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I'm in a bit of a unique situation. I've got a shed on my property with a dirt floor and a stream next to it with incredible amount of sand, gravel and water to mix into concrete. What makes the project "interesting" is that that my stream is located about 5 miles from Auraria, GA (dahlonega), so there is a distinct possibility that gold might be found at the bottoms of the big piles of sand. I own the land and it has electricity. I've thought about the sand a year ago, but now that gold has jumped, my interested in the project is renewed! The stream is very small, unless it is raining, then it is a really gully washer.

Out of curiosity, i attached a magnet to the end of a pole and shoved it in the sand. In some of the spots it came back with a course brownish magnetic sand and another spot it came back with a very fine and very black magnetic sand. No sighting of any gold.

My big question is about using an electric "dirty water pump" can pump sand from the stream onto the bank and upstream.

95267.gif

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=95267

I'm also interesting in any ideas on how best to separate the water and return it to the stream, which piling all of the sand high and dry away from the stream. I'm afraid is i just pile the sand, it will trap all of the silt, but i'd prefer the silt return with the water. If i could pile the silt in another pile, that would be good.

I'm also curious if there is anything i'm thinking about which is obviously illegal or needs permits.

thanks,

fred

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Have you panned at all yet?

Are there any large rocks in the creek? If so go to the eddy side and dig a couple of shovel fulls and pan that out. Remember that Gold is heavy, so it wont be on the surface of the bottom.

Also do you have any pics?

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Have you panned at all yet?

Last week i had a friend cut me a walking path along the stream and asked me about the same question. I'm not a native of north georgia and was clueless on the proximity and history of this area. Since then its been raining.

I didn't have any good pictures of the stream, but i got one of the shed. While close to falling apart, i dream of rebuilding the shed with concrete, yet keep its "charm".

I'm planning on picking up a pan at lunch tomorrow. (yes we have a panning store nearby) The magnet on a pole seems to point to a few areas to check first. I'm assuming that anywhere the magnetic sand would accumulate is the same sort of place gold would get stuck. One image is the magnetic sand the probing found.

The image below is where my stream empties out into the lake during the drought (a few miles up the road). Now that i have a path, i need to take some pictures on my property. The bridge caused a sandbar to form and fill the valley. It was during the drought that i started to think about using the sand as a building material.

6983245.jpg

fred

post-22754-126094428616_thumb.jpg

post-22754-126094682321_thumb.jpg

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Duke

There is a creek in your neck of the woods

called Young Deer creek. It was named for one

of my great great Grandfathers, Young Deer.

Find that creek and you will find gold.

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The first thing you will need is a US Army C of E permit to alter a stream, then they same from state and local orgs.

Big fines and restoration costs when they catch you ( usualy a neighabor squeals) saw it happen time after time.

Don,t talk about it on open forums other eyes are reading.

Max

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The first thing you will need is a US Army C of E permit to alter a stream, then they same from state and local orgs.

Big fines and restoration costs when they catch you ( usualy a neighabor squeals) saw it happen time after time.

Don,t talk about it on open forums other eyes are reading.

I'm not looking to break any laws nor am i looking to harm the stream. Either it is legal to remove the silt or it isn't.

I guess what i need to find out is if there is any gold even in the stream. If there isn't any, i'd be best trying to catch the water at a little 2 foot falls during downpours and take the sand from the falls, not the stream itself.

If there is gold, then i'll need to worry about permits.

If i were just looking for gold using an electric pump and not saving the sand, would i still need permits?

fred

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Guest bedrock bob

I'm not looking to break any laws nor am i looking to harm the stream. Either it is legal to remove the silt or it isn't.

I guess what i need to find out is if there is any gold even in the stream. If there isn't any, i'd be best trying to catch the water at a little 2 foot falls during downpours and take the sand from the falls, not the stream itself.

If there is gold, then i'll need to worry about permits.

If i were just looking for gold using an electric pump and not saving the sand, would i still need permits?

fred

First of all if you pump "sand" with that submersible pump it will eat it up. You need a trash pump or a slurry pump to do that.

Second, any time you pump water, sand, or anything else from any watercourse you will need some type of permit. I dont know what the regulations are in your area, but find out. The process to do anyhting lik ethat is often long and complicated.

Cement sand is a whopping $200 for a 12 CY dump truck full delivered. It wil probably cost you that much to pump 12 yards. If you find out where the borrow pit they are hauling from you can probably haul it yourself for much less in the bed of your pickup. If you find the right borrow pit there will be more gold in the sand that you by than you could ever recover from a creek lik ethat that is being constantly deconcentrated with tons of silt and barren sand.

So, there is a lot better way to collect gold, and a lot better way to stockpile buildng sand.

But by all means sample the creek with a pan and have yourself some fun!

Just my two cents!

Bob

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So, there is a lot better way to collect gold, and a lot better way to stockpile buildng sand.

Again, my problem is backwards. I have a heavily silted stream and i have a convenient local need for sand. Simple sense says to pull the sand out of the stream and use it, that way i just have to haul bags of porland mix.

Also i did not pick the location, the location picked me. While there are probably better places to look, there are none more convenient or personally more interesting. Where my wife grew up on the shore of lake erie, her dad used lake sand. It just happens that where i was hoping to grab sand "might" happen to contain gold.

This leads me to the question, just what is legal? Is using a hand pan in a stream legal? Is a suction dredge into a sluice box legal?

fred

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Guest bedrock bob

Again, my problem is backwards. I have a heavily silted stream and i have a convenient local need for sand. Simple sense says to pull the sand out of the stream and use it, that way i just have to haul bags of porland mix.

Also i did not pick the location, the location picked me. While there are probably better places to look, there are none more convenient or personally more interesting. Where my wife grew up on the shore of lake erie, her dad used lake sand. It just happens that where i was hoping to grab sand "might" happen to contain gold.

This leads me to the question, just what is legal? Is using a hand pan in a stream legal? Is a suction dredge into a sluice box legal?

fred

Once again you will have to research the laws in your area. I could not tell you what is legal and what is not in Georgia. Even if you got an answer on that one here it may or may not be factual. Ther eis no use relying on second hand information on laws, when your state publishes he laws and you can get the info from the proper agancies. I would do the proper research and find out first hand info on what the laws are in your area.

It may make sense at this point to just utilize sand from the creek, but once you know the full scoop I will bet my last nugget that you will be much better off to buy clean washed sand and have it delivered. Unwashed sand from a creek contains organic materials, silt, and rounded, weathered sand particles and it makes for poor concrete. And to boot, you will find that processing sand for gold is slow, costs money, and wont produce enough gold to make it worthwhile in MOST places. So you will do more work, spend more money, and get less sand and gold. At least that is the way it usually works.

Good luck!

BOB

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Once again you will have to research the laws in your area. I could not tell you what is legal and what is not in Georgia. Even if you got an answer on that one here it may or may not be factual. Ther eis no use relying on second hand information on laws, when your state publishes he laws and you can get the info from the proper agancies. I would do the proper research and find out first hand info on what the laws are in your area.

If i were looking for legal advice, i'd be asking on a lawyers forum! Since you mentioning federal permits, i assume you are under the same federal government as me, so what about your local laws. Can you take a pump and a sluice and work your way up a stream on private property with the owners permission? Or does the clean water act or some other law i don't know about make it illegal to suck up sand and release it back into the water as muddy water?

fred

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Guest bedrock bob

In my state you can not increase the turbidity of a stream in any way. If you sucked up the sand in any creek you would need a dredging permit. In other states it is more restrictive. In some states all streams and creeks are public domain. In most states you cant do a darn thing in a creek that causes any disturbance.

I know an outfit that digs sand from the rio grande and they deal with the International Boundary Comission because the river is used as an international boundary. Then there are the state permits, as well as the Dept. Of Interior.

There are just a buttload of laws and they are different for each and every area, because each and every area has different considerations.

But if you intend to attempt to recover gold from that sand I guarantee you that you are subjest to an entirely different permitting process.

So skip the legal forums, the only way to find out the scoop is to do the research. Start with the Georgia Mining and MInerals Division (or equal) and work from there. You should be able to get some fast answers on the web site.

In short, you are not going to be able to do anything like you are sugesting (legally) without a pile of paper. Each state is different and has different jurusdiction over streams, creeks, and intermittent watercourses.

In my state the answer is NO. You cant disturb material in a streamcourse, even on private property, and even with the owners permission, unless you have been properly permitted. In other states you can indeed do this. What the laws are in eorgia, only the state of Georgia can tell you.

Bob

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Here oyu go Duke. All the answers that you will ever need on your topic.

http://www.georgiaepd.org/

...Now that wasnt so hard was it?

Thanks, when i searched the site for "gold panning" and see lumpkin county hosts the World Championship Gold Panning Competition, so based on your recommendation of taking your easy answer, i infer that gold panning must be legal.

fred

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Guest bedrock bob

Well you can bet the gold panning championship is legal because they have it in a tub and not in a creek, and they pan for lead shot and not for gold. I suppose that you could infer that much. Inferring anything else might get you in trouble. Before any prospector does anything anywhere we all do our research...at least the ones that stay out of trouble! I would imagine that panning would be allowed in areas that are not withdrawn from mineral exploration, or in an environmentaly sensitive area. Outside of shaking a pan the laws get strict very quickly!

There is a "laws" page that gives the skinny on all surface mining in GA, as well as water quality and related topics. It is linked form the home page that I posted.

So good luck Fred! I hope you can get permission to dredge a whole pile of borrow sand to pour that floor with!

Bob

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Well you can bet the gold panning championship is legal because they have it in a tub and not in a creek, and they pan for lead shot and not for gold. I suppose that you could infer that much. Inferring anything else might get you in trouble. Before any prospector does anything anywhere we all do our research...at least the ones that stay out of trouble! I would imagine that panning would be allowed in areas that are not withdrawn from mineral exploration, or in an environmentaly sensitive area. Outside of shaking a pan the laws get strict very quickly!

There is a "laws" page that gives the skinny on all surface mining in GA, as well as water quality and related topics. It is linked form the home page that I posted.

So good luck Fred! I hope you can get permission to dredge a whole pile of borrow sand to pour that floor with!

Your such a nice Guy Bob....I simply dont see how anyone could ever hate you..... :hahaha:

Bob

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Duke

Just so happens that the largest producer of gold in California is not even a gold mining company, at least not on the surface. They are a large construction company that owns and operates is is own sand and gravel plants. Teichert Construction. They build roads, bridges and just about anything that need lots of concrete, asphalt etc. Since all the cement aggregates must be washed, they happpen to use really big trommels and run the cleaned sand through sluices or concentrators. They run under a much different permit process than a placer mine. While they do not take sand directly from a creek or river, some of their operations are certainly right next to waterways. If it can be done in CA it can be done anywhere!

Maybe you can just get a permit to remove some sand for personal construction, store it and if feasible then process that sand for gold......... probably not enough $$ for a real capitol venture, but would certainly make for great conversation showing off the gold!

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Guest bedrock bob

Your such a nice Guy Bob....I simply dont see how anyone could ever hate you..... :hahaha:

Bob

Yeah, my point exactly!

And I got your nickel right here HPS! A 2004 Louisiana Purchase five cent piece! :grin:

Hey, I dont dance around the point. While I am a true believer in asking forgiveness if permission is not available, the official answer is "you gotta follow the law". Even if you are going to break the law you owe it to yourself to find out what law that is. Getting caught is bad, but getting caught with a stupid look on your face is just pendejo.

If I am going to break a law I am going to do it where the Sheriff is my cousin or I have seen the magistrate naked. Otherwise I am going to either follow the law or know enough about the situation that I can break it and not get caught.

crap, a 20 X 20 slab 4" thick is only 5 cy of dirt, or about 150 buckets. You could just piss ant that much by hand in a few nights and never have to worry about it. You could test it in your back yard if you wanted to, no? I dont think the post had anyhting to do with a few buckets of sand, it was a question about law and possibly ethics.

Bob

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Guest bedrock bob

Eldorado,

You have some great dredging experience and can reallt put this one in perspective for us!

Give us an idea of what size pump that it would take to pull this off. It looks like it is about six feet from the sand to that trail, and I would suppose that he would pump the slurry uphill from there to it's destination (however far and however much lift). Either this or you would shoot it into a conveyance on wheels, let the water run off, and cart it to your destination. Either way you would need a pump capable of lifting slurry ten feet with a 4" hose? Maybe a 6"...I'l bet you need 15 horsepower to pump sand that far up.

That is my assumption here... and I want you to tell me if I am wrong on anything...

You have to also consider it takes a shitload of water flowing to pump sand unless you use a triplex type pump. As you pump over your box it is going to produce how many gallons per minute? Your "sedimentation" pond or pile that you catch your processed sand in will need to handle how much water running back down the slope and into the river? If you size the pump that will lift slurry that far and estimate how many gallons per minute is flowing we can give this fellow an idea of what kind of operation he is going to have here! 20 gpm? 30? mas?

And we are pumping 5 yards of extra fine material and processing it. What kind of box would you use? I am figuring a highbanker mounted close to the creek, and haul the tailings in a wheelbarrow to the construction site, no?

I just was involved in a little operation that used a 4" hose and a trash pump with a 5 hp engine. We could only get 6 feet of head and had to put a pump into a pump to get 10 feet out of the hole at 7000 feet altitude. Head pressure is a bitch.

I saw a big dredge operating in the Sea of Cortez. They were building a sea wall and pumping de-watered slurry about 6 feet high. The machine could lift it about 10 feet, but could only place it at 8 feet high. They had a 3,000 H.P. turbine mounted on about a 24" (or so)triplex pump. At sea level they could reach a whopping 10 feet of head pressure, albeit they were effectively pumping 24" of slurry with only a 2" slump rate.

So how much would the apparatus cost to do it?

I figure I would shovel it out of the creek when it was dry by the light of the moon!

Bob

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I'm still struggling to understand what, if anything, is actually legal? I see no exemption in the mining law nor the army laws nor the soil and water conservation laws which even say hand panning would be "legal".

No, it wasn't all about just a floor, but i thought an extended description of the project was not really important to the discussion. If it were possible to pour one slab, many other uses could have been found. The origin of the idea came from a discussion of the potential of the stream to generate electricity. My conclusion was that the stream was far too small to produce even a negligible amount of electricity and the the one big potential resource was the huge amounts of sand flowing down the stream. The easiest way to test the theory would be to clean out a natural sand trap. If my guess is correct, the trap would refill with sand during the next storm and have been a renewable resource.

Who was it that said, that the hallmark of authoritarian systems is the creation of innumerable, indecipherable laws. Such systems make everyone an un-indicted felon and allow for the exercise of arbitrary government power via selective prosecution.

fred

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Eldorado,

You have some great dredging experience and can reallt put this one in perspective for us!

Give us an idea of what size pump that it would take to pull this off. It looks like it is about six feet from the sand to that trail, and I would suppose that he would pump the slurry uphill from there to it's destination (however far and however much lift). Either this or you would shoot it into a conveyance on wheels, let the water run off, and cart it to your destination. Either way you would need a pump capable of lifting slurry ten feet with a 4" hose? Maybe a 6"...I'l bet you need 15 horsepower to pump sand that far up.

That is my assumption here... and I want you to tell me if I am wrong on anything...

You have to also consider it takes a shitload of water flowing to pump sand unless you use a triplex type pump. As you pump over your box it is going to produce how many gallons per minute? Your "sedimentation" pond or pile that you catch your processed sand in will need to handle how much water running back down the slope and into the river? If you size the pump that will lift slurry that far and estimate how many gallons per minute is flowing we can give this fellow an idea of what kind of operation he is going to have here! 20 gpm? 30? mas?

And we are pumping 5 yards of extra fine material and processing it. What kind of box would you use? I am figuring a highbanker mounted close to the creek, and haul the tailings in a wheelbarrow to the construction site, no?

I just was involved in a little operation that used a 4" hose and a trash pump with a 5 hp engine. We could only get 6 feet of head and had to put a pump into a pump to get 10 feet out of the hole at 7000 feet altitude. Head pressure is a bitch.

I saw a big dredge operating in the Sea of Cortez. They were building a sea wall and pumping de-watered slurry about 6 feet high. The machine could lift it about 10 feet, but could only place it at 8 feet high. They had a 3,000 H.P. turbine mounted on about a 24" (or so)triplex pump. At sea level they could reach a whopping 10 feet of head pressure, albeit they were effectively pumping 24" of slurry with only a 2" slump rate.

So how much would the apparatus cost to do it?

I figure I would shovel it out of the creek when it was dry by the light of the moon!

Bob

I smell something. Its not pleasant.

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Guest bedrock bob

I smell something. Its not pleasant.

It is just the smell of the dredged up bottom. There is microscopic organisms as well as shell fish that are being disturbed and ground up. The smell will go away soon after the sun hits the material and dries it out.

A gold dredge will barely lift material over the surface of the water. In order to harvest sand as slurry you need some big ass pumps, or a an auger type elevator. I dont think you could get a jet pump to lift material 2 feet much less 6. I was just trying to get an opinion from the experts, thats all.

Bob

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It is just the smell of the dredged up bottom. There is microscopic organisms as well as shell fish that are being disturbed and ground up. The smell will go away soon after the sun hits the material and dries it out.

You guys obviously are dredging something completely different than the material i was looking at. There is no smell nor any shell fish or anything else alive, except perhaps mosquito eggs.

Here is an example i found of someone doing exactly the sort of thing i was looking to do. Just a simple pump, no jet pump. Just sucking the sand with the water, running it though some classifiers and return the water. Of course it isn't being done in america. Nothing is done in america anymore!

http://www.kriyayoga.com/love_blog/post.php/1123

sand_pump-dsc04587-b.jpg

sand_pump-dsc04586-b.jpg

fred

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Guest bedrock bob

Since there are no "real miners" that will belly up to the bar here, I suppose that a "recreationalist" will have to provide some info on this one.

Here is is in laymans terms. There are charts that the pump manufaturers publish that can give you the approximate lift at a given rate of discharge. This will work peaches as long as the discharge/flow does not fall below the target rate. When it does the sand will begin to "settle" in the pump or hose, and the slury will "thicken" to the point that the pump will cease to pump. At this point you have a pump housing and a hose filled with solid wet sand. A cusser to clear out.

It will take 15 horsepower to fill a 4" hose coming off a suitable slurry pump to pump 7.3 feet of head at 2000 feet altitude given a slurry that does not exceed the criteria for the pump. This is an average, and various pump designs will be more or less efficient. A submersible slurry pump will be the most efficient for a small operation, but has no intake hose so that you can control pickup...the whole pump must be moved through the material. They are very expensive.

When we dewater our "recreational" mine we use a big diesel engine that I would estimate to be about 150 HP. It is mated to a 6" summersible "bowl" type pump that will lift the water 300 feet from the "bowls" to the outlet. The discharge is also a 6", and at 80 feet of lift (from the winze that we use for a sump to the top of the spoils pile)we can produce about 40 gallons per minute...it wont fill a 6" pipe half full. The pump and engine are a hundred years old and very inefficient, but you can draw some parallells here.

Now that is just water, and not slurry. For slurry the head depends on the amount of solids that the slurry is carrying, and for that you can use the chart below to make some ROM guesses as to what type of engineering you will need to pump the sand.

http://www.engnetglobal.com/Temp/verder/articles/technical_tip_complete.pdf

Plan on handling about 30 gpm runoff from the slurry back into the creek. In other words you will have some bank erosion and will need to control this with geotextile fabric or a PVC pond liner material. Otherwise your trail and river bank will be cut from the water flow.

I figure that it will take 2.5 hours to pump a yard of material and you will produce about 450 gallons of water in that time. I would not rely on those calcs because they just sound errant to me...I think you will produce a lot more water... but that will give you a pretty good idea of what kind of pump, how long it will take, and what kind of equipment will be required.

I hope that this puts it in three dimensions for you. And while I completely agree with your assessment of laws being very restrictive. you can readily see why the powers that be do not want the average joe out there trying to pump slurry out of a creek without some sort of plan. On the other hand there are a lot of guys out there with good engineering experience that could pull it off slick with no problems. For them the hard part is keeping their cool while filling out all of the forms. Go figure.

Bob

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Guest bedrock bob

You guys obviously are dredging something completely different than the material i was looking at. There is no smell nor any shell fish or anything else alive, except perhaps mosquito eggs.

Here is an example i found of someone doing exactly the sort of thing i was looking to do. Just a simple pump, no jet pump. Just sucking the sand with the water, running it though some classifiers and return the water. Of course it isn't being done in america. Nothing is done in america anymore!

http://www.kriyayoga.com/love_blog/post.php/1123

sand_pump-dsc04587-b.jpg

sand_pump-dsc04586-b.jpg

fred

You are right! What you see is a 6" pipe with a slurry pump...not a jet flare like is used on gold dredge. They are using at least a 25 HP engine and probably getting a flow like a trickle of piss at the other end. I figure that the pumping apex is at the edge of the road and they might be lifting the slurry 8 feet max. So there you go!

It does not look like they care if the ground erodes as their production water goes back down the slope. Your operation would look a heck of a lot the same, except you have a lot more GRADE so your run wont be as long. And you will have a "chute" or "water slide" of material going back into the creek.

Sure...looks great! If'n you can finance this type of operation and get it permitted then you are good to go for sand my friend!

Bob

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