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I can't believe this has not been posted by now.

A few days ago,the BLM and several other Agencies arrested 24 people here

in Utah for stealing,selling,and buying artifacts. They had been watching and

building cases for over two years. Their evidence must be pretty good because

two of the parties involved have committed suicide,since the bust.

None of the parties arrested had a clue they were being watched or investigated.

I will try to post a link to the story.

http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/1244710.html

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I can't believe this has not been posted by now.

A few days ago,the BLM and several other Agencies arrested 24 people here

in Utah for stealing,selling,and buying artifacts. They had been watching and

building cases for over two years. Their evidence must be pretty good because

two of the parties involved have committed suicide,since the bust.

None of the parties arrested had a clue they were being watched or investigated.

I will try to post a link to the story.

http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/1244710.html

Something is missing from this picture / press release.....the four corners area, 24 people involved, two years to investigate, the FBI.....geezzzz, not to sound as if I'm supporting the desacration of an archeologic / historical site, but a ton of laws would have been broken by these people if they were doing any kind of excavation on BLM land without permits. And an unnamed buyer of articals / artifacts from various shops? I'd love to know the inventory from his / her 300k+ purchase!

Years back as a young pup many of these original artifacts etc. were pruchased and later sold in mom and pop antique stores and pawn shops for pennies on the dollar from the original owners who's historic and late ancestors had passed such items "down to the next generation". A lot of these artifacts were out there because someone needed food or their next drink. I also suspect times haven't changed much since!

Some people, desperatly in need of a dollar, would sell 'whatever historical item' regardless of any

ancestor who fought against i.e. Custer, had an antique bowl(s) or found and collected arrow heads. This article just doesn't wash somehow with me and leaves a nasty 'rat bastard' after taste!

Gary

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Gary

You missed a lot of details.

These were not artifacts sold by original owners years ago. And most of

the parties involved were damned sure not poor. The reason for a two year

investigation was to prove exactly where and when these artifacts were dug

up.

It was not just BLM land involved,there was State,and Navajo Nation land

involved too. Some grave robbers also known as pot hunters,don't care if the

grave they are looting is an old Navajo grave either.

If you could see what they have done to burial sites and ruins,it would turn

your stomach. The fact is these people knew what they were doing is illegal ,

and they thought no one was watching.

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Aloha people,

Last year I was fortunate enough to hook up with some guys from UNLV doing some research on Native American Rock Artwork. We spent a couple of weekends over several months taking pics and gps coords for the State and BLM people so they could try to save some of these original works of art. These were drawings made by native americans living in the desert and told their stories in pics. I will always treasure the time I spent with these guys and gals. Unfortunately i believe that someone may have leaked some of this info out and it got into the wrong hands. A couple of months ago I was told to delete all gps coords and hide any info I have in my possession as someone had actually chiseled out a bunch of these drawings and may try to sell them to collectors.

I is shame and disgraceful what some people will do to "our history" to make a buck BUT that is just human nature I guess. Hopefull all these people will end up behind jail for a loooooooong time and not get away with a slap on their wrist and a big bank account hidden away somewhere.

Aloha and be safe out there.

Stan aka Kaimi

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I'm going out on a limb here but it seems a comment on our time that OUR government will spend 10's of millions of dollars in the preservation of artifacts from a past culture or in prosecuting people for the , (IN SOME CASES) of moving a rock only to ignore the pain and suffering of the children of these same people. A 150 yrs ago, the government tried to exterminate the same people whose artifacts are now so treasured, interesting

Not only Native Americans but other Americans are doomed to poverty by the lack of understanding that people who are alive today or worth far more that the artifacts of the past.

The preservation of a small fish is more important than the farmers who grow crops to feed people. The farmers land will wither from lack of water. He will leave because he can't make a living but the policies of part of the government only sees the fish, the other is not "There" problem. The law is more important than justice.

I don't advocate the destruction of removing these parts of our past, I just see things from a different POV. If we are more enlightened than 150 years ago, we would do some thing much better today than we do.

Just a stray though from a squirrel in a tree Wyndham :coffeetime:

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I'm going out on a limb here but it seems a comment on our time that OUR government will spend 10's of millions of dollars in the preservation of artifacts from a past culture or in prosecuting people for the , (IN SOME CASES) of moving a rock only to ignore the pain and suffering of the children of these same people. A 150 yrs ago, the government tried to exterminate the same people whose artifacts are now so treasured, interesting

Not only Native Americans but other Americans are doomed to poverty by the lack of understanding that people who are alive today or worth far more that the artifacts of the past.

The preservation of a small fish is more important than the farmers who grow crops to feed people. The farmers land will wither from lack of water. He will leave because he can't make a living but the policies of part of the government only sees the fish, the other is not "There" problem. The law is more important than justice.

I don't advocate the destruction of removing these parts of our past, I just see things from a different POV. If we are more enlightened than 150 years ago, we would do some thing much better today than we do.

Just a stray though from a squirrel in a tree Wyndham :coffeetime:

I rather agree with you Wyndham.....A better solution to both problems, would be to set up a museum on the Reservations, with the artifacts going there. Use the Taxpayer money to build it and then let the Native Americans run it and collect the funds. That is not only a humane way, but a non Socialist way to manage the situation. Why waste millions? instead let the artifacts earn money for the Native Americans!...Gee that sounds like Amercan Capitalism.....but I wax nostalgic.

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Yea you been looking in the rear view mirror tooo long, thanks wyndham

Heck....the view is a lot better than whats coming!

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Sonny

How would you like it if a bunch of Indians dug up your Great Grandpa then

tore his house down looking for trinkets to put into a museum so white people

could show their own race for a profit?

The Indians don't want their dead ancestors and their possessions put on public

display,for someone to gawk at. Museums are just as guilty as grave robbers. They

pay for so called legal grave robbers with a degree to loot sites,then throw most of it

in the basement and forget its there.

I can see a museum with old handed down artifacts,and stuff from the surface,but

draw the line at grave robbing,and destruction of ancient ruins. Hell if you need a

pot for display there is several Zuni or Pueblo people that can whip one out that looks

just like the old ones. Believe it or not lots of tribal elders in all tribes already know

the information our so called scientists are still looking for about the ancient ones.

My Great Great Grandfather made the journey over the Trail of Tears. I bet he would

have a few thoughts about who was really the savages. :laught16:

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Sonny

How would you like it if a bunch of Indians dug up your Great Grandpa then

tore his house down looking for trinkets to put into a museum so white people

could show their own race for a profit?

The Indians don't want their dead ancestors and their possessions put on public

display,for someone to gawk at. Museums are just as guilty as grave robbers. They

pay for so called legal grave robbers with a degree to loot sites,then throw most of it

in the basement and forget its there.

I can see a museum with old handed down artifacts,and stuff from the surface,but

draw the line at grave robbing,and destruction of ancient ruins. Hell if you need a

pot for display there is several Zuni or Pueblo people that can whip one out that looks

just like the old ones. Believe it or not lots of tribal elders in all tribes already know

the information our so called scientists are still looking for about the ancient ones.

My Great Great Grandfather made the journey over the Trail of Tears. I bet he would

have a few thoughts about who was really the savages. :laught16:

All men are savages.....not just us not just them.

It was a thought to prevent the digging up of artifacts by untrained inexperenced graverobbers. Nor do I condone the digging up of bodies to display. As both a student and a teacher of History.....please dont preach to me....I have had ths arguement before wth others. But you are more than welcome to your honored opinion and thank you for voicing it.

Oh yeah and my Great Great Grandfather was Kaiser Wilhelm.......you want to talk savage?

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Guest bedrock bob

One of the fellows in the sting was a Santa Fe rich man. Claims he bought most of the stuff they caught him with over 30 years ago from the Navajo people, and can evidence this well. He also owns a lot of acreage with a cave that he excavated. The real items (perishables) of interest he has had in his collection for many years. There is a lot of talk about how overzealous the officials were in this case. He was caught trying to buy artifacts... There was no indication that he had ever sold any although it was implied.

Not too many years ago artifacts were a big market. Before the "new gold rush" most of us hunted artifacts to some extent. I personally built a fireplace with petroglyph stones for a State Senator, and the market for these items was controlled by some very influential folks in Utah. Just like a lot of other things, we overzealously enforced the laws for the common man and allowed the rich influentials to enjoy the black market with relative impunity.

Still, Santa Fe is flooded with reproductions of every type of artifact. The fake stuff often commands a better price than the real stuff. Check out those seashell encrusted urns...A reproduction brings almost as much as the ancient Grecian original recovered from the bottom of the sea! As long as there is a demand, folks will take the artifacts to make a buck.

What is ethical when the law caters to the rich man? If I pick up an arrowhead in my back yard I am a criminal to some. If I leave an arrowhead on top of a mountain I am a fool to others. Certainly a burial site is sacred, and Indian land is as well. Picking up a potshard or even selling it from public land is hard to understand. Until our leaders make and enforce logical laws that apply to ALL people and carry sentences that are the same for ALL people there will be chaos.

There is not a single Liberal in Santa Fe that does not posess an eagle feather. Not a conservative that has not picked up an arrowhead. Not a shop that does not have a Mimbres reproduction, and very few that can't get you the "real stuff" if you know who and how to ask. Right or wrong most of the priceless stuff has come from the Res and was bought from Res members. It is fine to stand on morals and pontificate about what is ethical, but as long as there is a big market for the stuff there will be someone out there digging it up.

Would a golden Egyptian burial mask be any less ethical to take home than a Mibreno pot? Would a small silver milagro found on a hilltop be unethical to take home? How about a coin found in a park? A wedding ring lost in a car wreck? I believe it is up to the finder to decide on his own. At least until the law got involved.

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Bedrock Bob

I have worked and lived around Navajo's most of my life. I don't know of very many

that would even touch an arrowhead found on the ground. They are highly superstitious

about stuff like that. Some of the younger guys might pick one up,but if an elder catches

them they will get a stern lecture. :laught16: Breaking tribal taboo's can get you banned

from the clan. A Navajo caught robbing graves,or selling looted artifacts wouldn't last

10 minutes on the reservation. If he survived,he would be treated like crap forever. I am

sure that there is a few renegades that has done or tried it. But if the tribe finds out,the FBI

would look like buddies compared to the tribal council,and other members.

Most of the artifacts are coming off of BLM,State,National Monuments,parks and recreational

land. A lot of it is stolen from some of the large tracts of posted private land.

Some do come from the reservation,but in every Rez artifact arrest, it has been a white pot

hunter trespassing on Indian land.

As I said in my posts,I think the government over reacts about stuff found on the surface.

Some of the finest collections of arrowheads have been preserved by private collectors.Most

usually end up in a museum or put on public display sooner or later. I don't care if anyone

picks up stuff from the surface,that is up to them and the cops if they get caught.

As a young guy I used to collect arrowheads and stuff from the surface,It was legal then.

My old Grandma found out and I was wishing the Feds had of caught me before she was

done. In my case that was a good thing,because I have worked on Federal land and Indian

reservations since.

Once you are in the system,the laws get stricter ,and they watch like vultures. Just moving

an arrowhead on a government contract job can get you black balled. We have to notify the

pottery cop and they will flag it. But if you don't see it and its not flagged and you run over

it that's OK. After the first one we haven't seen anymore. :ph34r2:

The high rollers in the bust are trying to win public support by whining about how they

were busted,and make the cops look like the bad guys. The Feds must have a pretty

tight case,because two of these guys committed suicide just days after the bust. The Navajo

tribe,Ken Salazar,and Under Secretary Echohawk ,are going to push this to the limit.

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As a Diver born and raised in the Keys, I dove on many wrecks. I have found many many items and as another member of these forums can attest to, I have talked with and trained under one of the best Art McKee. With all of my experience in that form of "prospecting", I can see no difference in diving for treasure or picking it up off the ground. Picking up an arrowhead or registering and digging artifacts should be legal on land as well as underwater.

We have let our Government dictate to us, instead of us dictating to them, but we know how that goes. Much like back home, if I get caught raiding another’s lobsterpot I stand the chance of getting arrested or if I am really unlucky....shot. So should be artifact hunting on land....But if am willing to do the research and register a "claim" of artifacts, then I should be able to reap some reward of it.

This goes back to my previous post. I would prefer to see a national register and museums set up, rather than private collectors hording where none or select few can see the items. Although my previous post was totally taken out of context, this is what I mean and meant. It would be an equal sin to melt down a Spanish gold coin for the gold content, as it would be for a collector to hoard a "Membrino" pot.

THIS is the teaching and the life of the great Art McKee. For years he owned and maintained the Art McKee Museum back home in the keys. Again, I say if the "on land" treasures were registered and categorized.....museums set up and maintained by the Native Americans whose heritage is represented, then it would serve everyone in the naton. Both observer and ancestor alike. :twocents:

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http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicC...ge.cfm?PR_ID=30

For those interested, this is the prospecting world I came from.

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I really don't know who in their right mind would want to rob a grave. One guy told me of someone who used to do that somewhere in Mexico and ended up with a broke back. He said that it was bad medicine robbing Indian graves, and he got what he deserved. I didn't know that collecting arrowheads was illegal. If so, I'm glad that I've never found one because I would it would have been a prized find. I seen posts by people of arrowheads that they have found, and if it's illegal they're taking a risk of getting caught, especially if one of the forum members is federal agent. Maybe, big brother is really watching.

Sonny,

Did you ever take a dive at the Atocha wreck site? That was a heck of a find that took years to discover and salvage, but what treasure trove.

http://www.floridamemory.com/PhotographicC...ge.cfm?PR_ID=30

For those interested, this is the prospecting world I came from.

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No Sir I didnt. Thats was and is a registered wreck site. While finding some of that wonderful treasure would be great, I wouldnt be able to keep any of it, unless I stole it. That aint gonna happen on land or under water for me. Good old Mel has that one wrapped up and he actually does dsplay many of the items. If I rememer correctly Sue, his currator, when to college wth my brother.

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I thought maybe you worked with the crew that did the salvage. I watched some interesting documentaries on the salvage of the Atocha. The most recent was on Cash and Tresures, the show on the Travel Channel. I think that they sell some of the coins from the Atocha and their traveling exhibits.

No Sir I didnt. Thats was and is a registered wreck site. While finding some of that wonderful treasure would be great, I wouldnt be able to keep any of it, unless I stole it. That aint gonna happen on land or under water for me. Good old Mel has that one wrapped up and he actually does dsplay many of the items. If I rememer correctly Sue, his currator, when to college wth my brother.
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Arch

I agree with you 100 percent about grave robbing.

Actually you can pick up arrowheads on private land with permission .

My whole intent on posting this subject was to give folks a heads up while prospecting

on public land. You are totally accurate when you said big brother is watching too.

They are not just watching the artifact bunch either. I personally know a few federal

Law Enforcement Officers that can run a computer. :laught16:

This was a high profile bust,and that is why there is so much press coverage. When

you are cuffing several high profile citizens in a small area,its a little tough to keep it

quiet.

You can see in the link,how one lonely law enforcement officer can turn into a small

army if he spots a problem. Also none of these guys had a clue they were being watched

until they were arrested. The main thing is to watch your back and keep your nose clean.

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Guest bedrock bob

It came out in the paper today that the Santa Fe man that committed suicide had offered to broker two pots for the Utah parties in question. They sent an iformant in to ask questions while he was unknowingly being tape recorded, barged into his home a few weeks later at gunpoint, held him in jail for two days and then released him. He was a lonely bachelor type that had bipolar disorder. he had never been in trouble, and did not broker artifacts for a living. It was just a hobby of his since he was a kid. After several crisises in his life he just couldnt handle the pressure. He went back east for a week, saw his mother, and then shot himself twice in the chest. He lived for several hours after he shot himself.

He was not in big trouble actually, and they say the suicide was not really related to the charges inasmuch as he didnt stand to loose much. It was just more presssure than he could bear, or there was something else in his life that was the issue...The charges just set it off. He had an extensive collection and they say that it is of no interest to the feds...only the two pots in question that he had plans to broker for the owners in Utah.

I know the media will slant things, and this paper is the most liberal rag in the nation. Still, it seems like this fellow got treated rather harshly, and had personal issues. Combined they were too much to bear. He evidently was not any major player in the black market, and there was no evidence that he had ever done anything wrong previously. He just got involved with some major players at the wrong time, or so it seems.

Bedrock Bob

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Thanks Sawmill. It's always good to keep abreast of the laws to keep one out of trouble.

That's a shame. Sounds like he might have been duped and was just a pawn in this big scheme for selling illegally procured artifacts. Think of what getting a letter from the IRS does to your blood pressure and just imagine a armed police busting into your home. Too bad the feds don't put more energy in busting these violent traffickers that have invaded this country.

It came out in the paper today that the Santa Fe man that committed suicide had offered to broker two pots for the Utah parties in question. They sent an iformant in to ask questions while he was unknowingly being tape recorded, barged into his home a few weeks later at gunpoint, held him in jail for two days and then released him. He was a lonely bachelor type that had bipolar disorder. he had never been in trouble, and did not broker artifacts for a living. It was just a hobby of his since he was a kid. After several crisises in his life he just couldnt handle the pressure. He went back east for a week, saw his mother, and then shot himself twice in the chest. He lived for several hours after he shot himself.

He was not in big trouble actually, and they say the suicide was not really related to the charges inasmuch as he didnt stand to loose much. It was just more presssure than he could bear, or there was something else in his life that was the issue...The charges just set it off. He had an extensive collection and they say that it is of no interest to the feds...only the two pots in question that he had plans to broker for the owners in Utah.

I know the media will slant things, and this paper is the most liberal rag in the nation. Still, it seems like this fellow got treated rather harshly, and had personal issues. Combined they were too much to bear. He evidently was not any major player in the black market, and there was no evidence that he had ever done anything wrong previously. He just got involved with some major players at the wrong time, or so it seems.

Bedrock Bob

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Guest goldstudmuffin

Three of my sons and my brother were in Blanding Utah for a family reunion right after all the busts went down. The second man thay supposably committed suicide was from Blanding. Apparently no one in town thought it was a suicide, needless to say the whole town was up in arms with the Federal Marshals. I didn't know the man, but everyone in town knew him and he was well liked and a respected Doctor. He was also a distant relative of mine. Read about it here.

http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:w6REv...=clnk&gl=us

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Guest goldstudmuffin

From the Deseret News...

At Blanding Clinic on Friday, the doors were locked, and a sign on the door broke the news of his death.

Story continues below

The sign read, "Closed," "In memory of Dr. Redd."

"(Redd) was a doctor of doctors," said Phil Mueller, a relative. "He was devoted to his patients and serving his community … It will be a tremendous loss to the medical community, San Juan and Blanding."

Patients and a nurse said Redd was an excellent physician and an "extremely important person" in the community.

Redd provided medical services throughout southeastern Utah, from Moab to Blanding.

He "delivered half the town," one woman said of Redd.

Mueller said Redd enjoyed spending his time in the outdoors and adventuring with his family. He was an avid hunter who had traveled to Alaska and Canada to bag game.

Some in the community have expressed concerns over how authorities served the warrants and the impact the string of events may have had on Redd.

"With both events, the community has been hit with a double whammy," Mueller said. "People are asking questions like, 'Is this really our country? Is this how we treat all tax-paying citizens?' "

At his Blanding pottery shop, Blanding City Councilman Joe Lyman called the indictments of the 24 people stealing artifacts "ludicrous."

"Where are our priorities?" he asked.

Lyman said he had no doubt that the federal indictment played some part in Redd's suicide.

"There had to be some other things there," Lyman said. "Even so, that was the straw that broke his back."

Flowers and an American flag memorialized Redd's death at the end of the driveway at his home overlooking Blanding.

"Their driveway is about a quarter mile long, and it was packed with cars, in some places on both sides (Thursday)," Mueller said. "People were there offering what support or help they could to his family."

Viewing services will be held on Monday at the San Juan Mortuary from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and again on Tuesday from 9 a.m. to 11 a.m. The funeral will be held Tuesday at the Blanding LDS stake center.

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As Paul Harvey would have said,"And now for the rest of the story."

The fellow in Bedrocks post was looking at 10 to 20 years. He was only released

after pre trial proceedings and scheduled for a federal court trial . He turned his self

in and there was no raid on his home.

I am posting an up to date link with all the real details of the whole mess to date.

To the right on the story that comes up is a list of all the stories concerning this deal.

It gives lots of insight ,and you will find out that none of these guys were as squeaky

clean as their neighbors claim.

OOPS had the wrong link Sorry. This should be the right one.

www.olcg.com/ut/moab/main.php?city2=Moab&state2=UT

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Crap I give up on the link thing,just type the web address info posted into search.

When the site comes up scroll down to where it says another suicide in artifacts case.

That will take you into the news site. :Huh_anim]:

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Guest goldstudmuffin

Some 200 federal agents in a small town like Blanding had to look something like Ruby Ridge or Waco and after the way the feds and media twisted and covered up the stories of what really happened at Ruby Ridge and Waco I have to lean toward what his neighbors say about him, they have more credibility, after all they knew him for 60 years. Now I guess we don't need to judge how squeaky clean he was because God will do that, not some court room full of federal agents!

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