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Well I do know him and most of his relatives along with most of

the other people that were arrested.

I don't mean to imply that Mr. Redd was a monster or evil person. But he had a

history with the artifact cops,as did his wife. Other than the artifact thing he was

a fine guy. His relatives are some of the best people I have ever met. The main

thing is the BLM has got one heck of a case on all these guys ,and the pressure

has to be horrible for them. I feel sorry for him and the problems it has caused

his family.

Most of the locals caught in this mess are just ordinary small town Southern

Utah folks,that were used to old ways,and failed to take the Federal laws as serious,

and continued business as usual . When I say not squeaky clean I am just referring to

the artifact thing,and the documented evidence against these people.

I have seen BLM busts here in Southern Utah that make that one look mild. You just

about have to live here to understand why they bring an army. The people in these

small towns stick together and will protect their neighbors. Some of the fellers are a

little hot headed when it comes to the Feds and it wouldn't take a lot to start a shooting

match. The BLM and Forest Service has pushed and shoved here so much that most

people are just sick of them. They know things could get out of hand fast,so they just

bring an army for their own safety. Another reason for so many cops is they covered

a lot of country,and made all the busts at one time. If they had of just had a few cops

and arrested folks one at a time the others would have been warned and would have

scattered and a couple of them may have decided to make a stand. The cops were not

just in Blanding. Here when someone says he lives in a certain town,it may be a couple

miles out on a farm.Or half way to the next town because of the liberal city limits for

tax purpose.

You should have been here when they evicted and arrested a few wild cows from

the monument. It looked like a war zone for two weeks. :laught16:

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Guest goldstudmuffin

Sawmill, do you live in or close to Blanding, I have several relatives there. Maybe you're a reative of mine :Huh_anim]:

My Mother's maiden name is Keele.

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So two men are dead, lives ruined, others will go to jail, families will break up, children will hate those that destroyed their lives, all for some %$#@& rocks.

At some point in a future that keeps this going, a person will be arrested and jailed or hung because he dug in a trash pile and found a Beenie Weenie can.

If I were to print a story from the future that a person committed suicide because he was collecting "Sacred Mt Dew Bottles" or "Jack Daniels bottles" that were thought to be part of some ritual ceremony and got caught. His life ruined and his wife left him from the public shame, you'd call me more names than a few, but it just happened and their lives were more precious than the artifacts involved. This country has lost it's way.

My ancestors are dead. As great or worthless as they were ,they lived their lives and died. Under Paris there are the bones of 6 million or more people. so what.

What we do to one another both the good and bad, today, right now, is what matters. If those same lawmen were to help a starving family in this country, that would make a difference. The law is made of stone, there is no heart in the law.

There I go again, better get back on my meds before the black helicopters get me again.

BTW I met Mel Fisher years ago on the Spanish Galleon where he had a stack of silver bars unguarded on deck. I ask about this and He said if I were crazy enough to pick up one and run with it, I'd collapse in about 40 ft.

He paid a dear price for all the gold he found.

Wyndham

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So two men are dead, lives ruined, others will go to jail, families will break up, children will hate those that destroyed their lives, all for some %$#@& rocks.

At some point in a future that keeps this going, a person will be arrested and jailed or hung because he dug in a trash pile and found a Beenie Weenie can.

If I were to print a story from the future that a person committed suicide because he was collecting "Sacred Mt Dew Bottles" or "Jack Daniels bottles" that were thought to be part of some ritual ceremony and got caught. His life ruined and his wife left him from the public shame, you'd call me more names than a few, but it just happened and their lives were more precious than the artifacts involved. This country has lost it's way.

My ancestors are dead. As great or worthless as they were ,they lived their lives and died. Under Paris there are the bones of 6 million or more people. so what.

What we do to one another both the good and bad, today, right now, is what matters. If those same lawmen were to help a starving family in this country, that would make a difference. The law is made of stone, there is no heart in the law.

There I go again, better get back on my meds before the black helicopters get me again.

BTW I met Mel Fisher years ago on the Spanish Galleon where he had a stack of silver bars unguarded on deck. I ask about this and He said if I were crazy enough to pick up one and run with it, I'd collapse in about 40 ft.

He paid a dear price for all the gold he found.

Wyndham

Wyndham you are so right about the waste of lives!

Most deep Sea Treasure hunters pay a very steep prce. Thats one reason why the donate most of their finds too. Mel was a nice guy, I attended a couple of lectures and while I never spoke to him in length personally, he always seemed like the type of guy to not hide anythng. Again, Art McKee was one of those types of people too. You hang around people like that, it makes you a better person too.

I think 29'er, Jim Straight(who has helped me personally) and Gilaoro are those types....I would say Reno Chris too....but he has to put some years on :laught16:

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Guest goldstudmuffin

I copy and pasted a few statements from Blanding residents!

The indictments in Blanding and the news reports have made "nice people" out to be "hardened criminals.

"Anyone can walk out their back door and probably find something. Most of the houses in this town are built on old Indian ruins. It's everywhere. It's not like these people are going into someone's home or a museum and taking these artifacts. They're just outside on the ground."

Many people say Blanding, which had been raided before, has been unfairly singled out in a region where universities and museums once paid residents to dig up artifacts. Residents, often grew up collecting objects as a hobby and still stumble upon arrowheads. Many expressed outrage that residents were being portrayed as “grave robbers.”

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Awhile back I was in an antique store on Cortez street in Prescott. A fella was looking and studying some stone axe heads in a wooden display case. I watched him for a moment then leaned over and said "Are you looking to buy some used rocks?" He chuckled and said "I was until you put like that". :laught16:

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Wyndham

The blame for ruined lives can't be laid to,rocks,the BLM,judges,or laws.

24 people chose to break Federal laws,knowing full well what the outcome

would be if caught. These people were not ignorant of the laws and several

have a history of breaking these laws. You can't blame the train if you choose

to step in front of it for running you over.

The area where this happened has one of the highest concentrations of Federal

Law Enforcement . It is covered with National Parks,Monuments,Recreation Areas,

Wilderness and the Navajo reservation.

The risk of getting caught is very high. These people were willing to

take that risk and can't blame anyone except their selves. Sneaking around and

trying to sell black market items to an under cover agent sort of ruins the old I

didn't know it was illegal story too.

I log on National Forest land. The law says it is Illegal to cut unmarked or timber

not designated for harvest. The penalty can be up to $10,000.00 or 10 years in a

federal prison per tree. If I choose to say this law sucks and start cutting unmarked

timber. It would be my fault,and I couldn't blame anyone when the Feds showed up

on my door step.

I don't agree with all of the land laws,but the BLM and other agencies have to enforce

all of them. If a person wants to run around and play outlaw,they don't have anyone

to blame except their self when they get busted.

A few bad choices for who knows what reason messed up a lot of lives.

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Sawmill, I understand where you are coming from. I'm not advocating breaking the law. My main gripe is that we as a nation, which started out that the government served the people, has turned 180 deg around.

To paraphrase a 19th C French diplomat, when he saw our form of government. He said in effect that this is th egreatest form of government till the those in government learns it can manipulate the people with money and favors for their own selfish ends.

So when I rail against the laws that are designed to coerce the people into being compliant, I am really lamenting the decline of our nation. I may have a naive POV about what this nation stands for as it's purpose in the world but that's just me.

Your example of logging is an excellent one because you can see first hand that if there is no ethical administration of the laws you work by, no mater how well you adhere to the law, corrupt members of any oversight group can make you the bad guy at the drop of a hat and your live could be ruined.

Don't you think that i am aware that there are people reading this forum, that for their own purposes would love to cause damage to some here because of their differing POV and would use the letter of law to effect that outcome.

There was an experiment conducted years ago where a group of people were told that it was ok to administer an electrical shock of high voltage to some test subjects. The subjects were not wired to a current but the test group though so and with the "Doctors" looking on added more and more current, just because they were given permission to administer excessive pain to innocent people.

There has to be ethics in the law and in the people that accept that responsibility of administering the law because our word is all we have.

Wyndham

Wyndham

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Sawmill,

No offense, but are you an retired lawman? I mean that as a compliment because you seem to be will versed on the laws and rules. Although, I didn't have any plans to look for gold on state land, I'm glad you previously gave me an education on what could happen if you went hunting for gold on state land. I joined a prospecting club, and now have legal places that I can hunt for gold. But to be honest, I don't think I'm going to have much chance of finding much gold on these claims. I'd probably have to join another club that has claims in better areas. Regarding those people involved in that bit artifact bust, maybe if they had talked to someone like you they would have never gotten involved artifact trafficking. I realize that ignorance is no excuse, but I think that authorities should be more concerned about recovering the artifacts instead of severely punishing these people. They should save hard time for the real criminals like traffickers of people and narcotics. Just my two cents.

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Arch

No I am not now or have ever been a lawman.

My whole life has been spent on or around Federal,State and Reservation Land.

I have to deal with these agencies 24/7 while working on these lands. Learning

all the laws,rules,and regulations ,and how these agencies work is just a matter

of self preservation. :laught16:

The laws can work both ways,and it helps to know exactly where you stand at

all times. Emotional or personal opinions won't get you very far when it comes

time to bust one of these feds or fight them. In my last post I just told it the

way a federal judge would see things. Or the way most law enforcement officers

see it.

I have been in constant contact with this kind of stuff ,and have got to see stuff

most people never see. Over the years I have made some good friends in the

various agencies. I have watched guys lose everything they owned by breaking

some dumb or stupid little regulation,or taking things for granted.

I worked for several years for a large contractor and all of our work was on public

land,reservations,and large private tracts. One of my jobs was solving conflicts,and

making peace with these agencies. Going up against these guys blind and stupid

just don't get the job done. By knowing the rules ,how these guys work,what they

can really do,internal politics,and what makes them tick,I have sent more than one

overzealous A hole down the road talking to his self. :laught16:

The simple fact is since the mid 60's public land use has been in a constant change

brought on by environmental ,and just plain ignorant bleeding heart groups. The public

land is owned by all of us. But there is more idiots out there than people with common

sense. They raise hell to get all these wacko laws on the books,then put all kinds of

pressure on the various agencies to enforce them right or wrong.

The point I try to get across is. Sooner or later one of these agencies will enforce

some dumb obscure regulation or law that can cause lots of misery because someone

didn't figure it was worth paying attention to. The officers in the agencies are always

getting transferred or shifted around. Some are kind of laid back and let some things

slide and are good guys to work with. But if he gets transferred ,his replacement can

bust you for stuff you never dreamed of unless you know the rules and have been

taking care of business.

The most important thing to remember is these guys have all the power,money

equipment and time to make your life a living hell if you are wrong. And sometimes

can do the same even if you are right. Watch your back,and never take anything

for granted when dealing with any government agency.

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Sawmill

You bring a lot of insight to this issue. I think that federal and state governments need to do a better job in educating the public. I also think that elected officials who represent the public should have the best interests of the public in mind and not go on personal crusades sponsoring ridicules laws that do more harm than good. Isn't there some omnibus bill to ban metal detecting on federal land? Bottom line, as you stated you have to know the laws and regulations of public land use or you could find yourself in trouble, especially with an overzealous law enforcement agent. However, sometimes there is lack of enforcement. There are people who are out on forest land tearing up the countryside and littering like there is no tomorrow, and there is no forest service personnel in sight. People have dumped old appliances out in the forest to save themselves money at the local landfill and for target practice. It is a real shame.

Arch

No I am not now or have ever been a lawman.

My whole life has been spent on or around Federal,State and Reservation Land.

I have to deal with these agencies 24/7 while working on these lands. Learning

all the laws,rules,and regulations ,and how these agencies work is just a matter

of self preservation. :laught16:

The laws can work both ways,and it helps to know exactly where you stand at

all times. Emotional or personal opinions won't get you very far when it comes

time to bust one of these feds or fight them. In my last post I just told it the

way a federal judge would see things. Or the way most law enforcement officers

see it.

I have been in constant contact with this kind of stuff ,and have got to see stuff

most people never see. Over the years I have made some good friends in the

various agencies. I have watched guys lose everything they owned by breaking

some dumb or stupid little regulation,or taking things for granted.

I worked for several years for a large contractor and all of our work was on public

land,reservations,and large private tracts. One of my jobs was solving conflicts,and

making peace with these agencies. Going up against these guys blind and stupid

just don't get the job done. By knowing the rules ,how these guys work,what they

can really do,internal politics,and what makes them tick,I have sent more than one

overzealous A hole down the road talking to his self. :laught16:

The simple fact is since the mid 60's public land use has been in a constant change

brought on by environmental ,and just plain ignorant bleeding heart groups. The public

land is owned by all of us. But there is more idiots out there than people with common

sense. They raise hell to get all these wacko laws on the books,then put all kinds of

pressure on the various agencies to enforce them right or wrong.

The point I try to get across is. Sooner or later one of these agencies will enforce

some dumb obscure regulation or law that can cause lots of misery because someone

didn't figure it was worth paying attention to. The officers in the agencies are always

getting transferred or shifted around. Some are kind of laid back and let some things

slide and are good guys to work with. But if he gets transferred ,his replacement can

bust you for stuff you never dreamed of unless you know the rules and have been

taking care of business.

The most important thing to remember is these guys have all the power,money

equipment and time to make your life a living hell if you are wrong. And sometimes

can do the same even if you are right. Watch your back,and never take anything

for granted when dealing with any government agency.

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Arch

Sawmill is right, you have to keep up on the regulations and laws. It is up to you whether you want to follow them or not, but it is best to know what they are. Our country was founded by men that practiced civil disobedience of Monarchy rule. These men felt that the laws forced upon them by the Monarchy were unfair and unjust and the rest is history. Morality has little to do with ethics in todays world. Ethics simply means what is right and wrong according to the law. Morality is what is right and wrong according to your heart and spiritual beliefs. For example it is unethical and unlawful to spank your child, however it is immoral if you don't. Don't be afraid to live your life morally and always question authority. If you want to know whether to trust your government or not, just ask any indian or Vietnam Veteran how much they trust their government. :wink2:

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Arch & Sawmill. I tend to joust too many windmills. I know the real world is out there and how to deal with it but I have never liked politics in any thing. That's just me. It's easy for me to post theory where folks like you, Sawmill deal with the BS everyday.

As a potter with a retail store, I have my share of reality to deal in and I at least what to believe your grass is greener because it's my illusion. :innocent0002: Wyndham

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Hello all

So when they outlaw metal detecting (Mining) some will stop and some will become outlaws!

So when they outlaw what kind of guns you can own some will sell some will become outlaws!

So when they tell you how much ammo you can have for each gun some will become outlaws!

This is what happened in blanding!

Scott W

Dr Redd was a third cousin we did not know him or meet him.

our other cousins that knew him will miss him.

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The fed Will play it in there favor every time because they can. A dog licks him self because he can. That does not mean it should.

I have guys i know that have been busted by the feds. The funny thing is it always seems to be a mixture of the same areas. The four corners and the bigest of the area seems to be the Navajo nation. I have delt with the Navajo all my life as well. we even raised a couple with our family. I have an uncle that is was raised by my grandmother and grandfather that is Navajo. I have been taken to some of there most prized mule deer country to hunt and am recognized by many of them on the AZ side as a white Brother. I just had to have lots of extra change to give out while in the towns for all the drunks. The AZ Navajo must not be the same as the Utah Navajo. even though most of them are a proud strong people the other half would sell there grandmother out of the bed of there red chevy truck for a pint of wisky.I know that sounds hard but it is the truth.

It always seems that the feds use the nations because they have extra laws to fallow on the rez that are ment for the white man. I know of a very well known hunter that produces hunting videos that was busted in one of theese traps. He went scouting and hunting with some friends on the rez that had drawn a tag. Because he was a hunting guide he was busted by the feds for guiding on the rez. His payment for guiding ended up being the fact that his friend paid for the food on the trip and paid for the gas. He was even baught lunch at the local taco bell. There was a hand full of guys busted in this sting. I do believe they all got off of the charges except one guy that was not with them was flying over the hunting grounds in a plane to find game.

The guy I know the most had them come into his home when he was not home. Only his wife was home. The took every set of horns and every trophy mount he had on the wall, Every photo album with a liftime of memories handed from father to son for generations. They brought his wife into the bedroom as they dug through her underwear drawer for evedence to use against him.

When it was all said and done and they one the court battle his family was on the edge of falling apart. he only got back a hand full of his property back from the feds. He never got back the photo albums and some of the finest mule deer mounts are more than likely on the walls of those that stole them from him.

My uncle was a gun dealer caught up in a sting by the feds a few years ago also. He went to prison and lost everything he had including a family. He was let out and awarded a good chunk of change for the unlawfull sting he was drug into. And all he did was open his gun shop to a sale of two rifles for a guy that was buying from out of state and needed the lic to have the guns shiped to. One of the rifles was modified to full auto. As soon as the guns arived to his shop the feds came in with them and arested him. He never had the chance to even inspect the rifles for the sale. As i recall there was a few other AZ gun dealers that got hit the same day.

I just dont hold stock in alot that the feds do. They have there hands into way to much as it is and now with our new leader that will grow even more. :angry-smiley-010:

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