Jump to content
Nugget Shooter Forums

Help interpreting something....


wyldkatt7

Recommended Posts

I know there are a lot of you folks out there who know what the laws are concerning our craft...(prospecting)

So I want to go into a 'wilderness review area' to look for the yella stuff.. not with a dredge, or backhoe....

a pick, a shovel, maybe some sample containers....okay.

So I find the following, and another says that I need to read the whole thing to make sure.....

Is this not black and white, cut and dry, plain and simple???......or is it really me?

thanks in advance for your replies....

~wyld~

Anyway, this info is current as of October 21, 2008......

Title 43: Public Lands: Interior

PART 3800—MINING CLAIMS UNDER THE GENERAL MINING LAWS

Subpart 3802—Exploration and Mining, Wilderness Review Program

§ 3802.1 Plan of operations.

An approved plan shall include appropriate environmental protection and reclamation measures selected by the authorized officer that shall be carried out by the operator. An operator may prepare and submit with a plan measures for the reclamation of the affected area.

§ 3802.1-1 When required.

An approved plan of operations is required for operations within lands under wilderness review prior to commencing:

(a) Any mining operations which involve construction of means of access, including bridges, landing areas for aircraft, or improving or maintaining such access facilities in a way that alters the alignment, width, gradient size, or character of such facilities;

(cool.gif Any mining operations which destroy trees 2 or more inches in diameter at the base;

© Mining operations using tracked vehicles or mechanized earth moving equipment, such as bulldozers or backhoes;

(d) Any operations using motorized vehicles over other than open use areas and trails as defined in subpart 6292 of this title, off-road vehicles, unless the use of a motorized vehicle can be covered by a temporory use permit issued under part 2930 of this chapter;

(e) The construction or placing of any mobile, portable or fixed structure on public land for more than 30 days;

(f) On mining operations requiring the use of explosives; or

(g) Any operation which may cause changes in a water course.

[45 FR 13974, Mar. 3, 1980, as amended at 67 FR 61745, Oct. 1, 2002]

§ 3802.1-2 When not required.

A plan of operations under this subpart is not required for

(a) Searching for and occasionally removing mineral samples or specimens;

(cool.gif Operating motorized vehicles over open use areas and trails as defined in 43 CFR part 8340 so long as the vehicles conform to the operating regulations and vehicle standards contained in that subpart;

© Maintaining or making minor improvements of existing access routes, bridges, landing areas for aircraft, or other facilities for access where such improvements or maintenance shall not alter the alignment, width, gradient, size or character of such facilities; or

(d) Making geological, radiometric, geochemical, geophysical or other tests and measurements using instruments, devices, or drilling equipment which are transported without using mechanized earth moving equipment or tracked vehicles.

This information was taken from the Government Printing Office Website….

It’s the e-CFR….(electronic code of federal regulations)

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov

So, the way I read it, it say's that I can go into an area that is under "wilderness review", and

both 'search', and 'occasionally remove mineral samples'.....without a POO..

Correct??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In dealing with the BLM or

Forestery Department it is always best to call your local area office and talk to their Geologist. Use general terms as much as possible so as not to give away the farm or give them a reason to find a way to block you off.

The law you quoted separates the professional mining companies from the weekend miner. Even the big boys have to start like us little guys. This helps determine the viablity of the property. Once the viablity is determined then a full plan of operations is needed. As for the weekend miner, its best to stay under the radar, work in small amounts and cover your tracks.

I do believe you read the law right. As for Plans of Operations, I've done 6 in my life and I hope and pray I don't have to do another one.

Ol'29er

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the reply Bob....

You have covered my sentiments entirely...

It seems the more I research, the more of these little things that I find, that may help some day..

That is, if they too happen to dip below the radar, to look for us..

Just because they slip something into the Federal Register, doesn't make it Constitutional...

Public Lands for the People, has worked harder in this area of rights, than any other organization that I know of...

At least on behalf of the prospector, miner, dredger, and detectorists...

But they take on the fight for a lot of others too...like off-roaders, hikers, equestrian groups, etc; etc.

Anyway, if you havn't yet people, check them out here:

http://www.plp2.org/index_files/Page260.htm

Any other replies on the POO or NOI's are appreciated...

~wyld~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

A NOI alway Preceeds a POO. You do not need to file a NOI unless you plan on using heavy mechanized equipment , cutting trees or make a significant surface disturbance. Stay away from submitting either, Especially with the Forest Circus! Don't just fly under the radar, crawl under it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest bedrock bob

Yup. As long as you are "prospecting" you dont need to file either paper. The law hinges on the definition of "exploration" (prospecting) and "exploitation" (mining). So, if there will just be minor disturbances, and no mechanized digging, you dont have to file the papers.

An area can be under "wilderness review" for several reasons. Find out what that reason is in your area. Even though the CFR may not prohibit certain things, the area may have specific concerns... For instance if the area is roadless, and under wilderness review I would not go in with an ATV. It would just add fuel to the fire so to speak. It may not be prohibited but it may raise concens. If the area is burned and eroding, they will take eception to almost any disturbance, whether it is permittable or not. You get the idea... At their (the FS) discretion they can apply rules for wilderness to areas under "wilderness review" if they feel the need to do so. They are not going to arrest you, just send you for a permit that you will never get. Do a little recon and it may avoid some trouble.

I agree that sometims it is better to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission. I would however, drop by the local FS office and ask a few questions about the area. Why it is under review, what the specific concerns are (if any), and the activities allowed there. You dont have to blurt out that you are going prospecting, but you should ask if there are any actiities that are not allowed in the area that may be allowed on other public land. Talk to the FS district supervisor and make sure to get his card and also to introduce yourself. This way if someone take exception to what you are doing you have at least a little absolution.

The paper to start an active minimg operation are prohibitive, no argument there. But, as a recreationalist you have the edge on any public land. I have met with rabid environmentalists working for the FS but they have all been low on the totem pole and full of wind. Worker bees. As long as you are playing within the rules they are powerless to do a darn thing. Just another opinion. I have the local district supervisors card in my pocket and he knows what I am up to, and any time I have a windbag making a judgement on my activities I jsut tell them to call him and let him know what I am doing. End of argument.

I know that there are many scare stories about BLM and FS people being a pain in the butt. I have never had any problems other than with an active mining operation, and even then it was just rules and they were just doing their job. I may not agree with the rules, but I cant fault folks for doing what they were hired for. Never have I had any "official" criticism for prospecting anywhere.

Bedrock Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest bedrock bob

Yup. As long as you are "prospecting" you dont need to file either paper. The law hinges on the definition of "exploration" (prospecting) and "exploitation" (mining). So, if there will just be minor disturbances, and no mechanized digging, you dont have to file the papers.

An area can be under "wilderness review" for several reasons. Find out what that reason is in your area. Even though the CFR may not prohibit certain things, the area may have specific concerns... For instance if the area is roadless, and under wilderness review I would not go in with an ATV. It would just add fuel to the fire so to speak. It may not be prohibited but it may raise concens. If the area is burned and eroding, they will take eception to almost any disturbance, whether it is permittable or not. You get the idea... At their (the FS) discretion they can apply rules for wilderness to areas under "wilderness review" if they feel the need to do so. They are not going to arrest you, just send you for a permit that you will never get. Do a little recon and it may avoid some trouble.

I agree that sometims it is better to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission. I would however, drop by the local FS office and ask a few questions about the area. Why it is under review, what the specific concerns are (if any), and the activities allowed there. You dont have to blurt out that you are going prospecting, but you should ask if there are any actiities that are not allowed in the area that may be allowed on other public land. Talk to the FS district supervisor and make sure to get his card and also to introduce yourself. This way if someone take exception to what you are doing you have at least a little absolution.

The paper to start an active minimg operation are prohibitive, no argument there. But, as a recreationalist you have the edge on any public land. I have met with rabid environmentalists working for the FS but they have all been low on the totem pole and full of wind. Worker bees. As long as you are playing within the rules they are powerless to do a darn thing. Just another opinion. I have the local district supervisors card in my pocket and he knows what I am up to, and any time I have a windbag making a judgement on my activities I jsut tell them to call him and let him know what I am doing. End of argument.

I know that there are many scare stories about BLM and FS people being a pain in the butt. I have never had any problems other than with an active mining operation, and even then it was just rules and they were just doing their job. I may not agree with the rules, but I cant fault folks for doing what they were hired for. Never have I had any "official" criticism for prospecting anywhere.

Bedrock Bob

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wlyd,

I would have to agree with El D about not getting involved in submitting any POO or NOI unless absolutely necessary. Once you standup and show yourself they know who to look for and where you will be. On the other hand if you are disturbing more then one acre you do not want to risk the fine because it will be very hefty. An NOI is only required for your purposes if you are disturbing more then one acre or you are within ¼ mile of any impaired or unique water.

If you end up needing to submit an NOI please let me know. I have done hundreds of NOIs in Arizona and would be able to help out. You will also need a Storm Water Pollution Prevention Plan (SWPPP) that I can also help you prepare. I have never done a POO so I cannot help you with that one. PM me if you want more detailed information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wyld, don't do anything to draw attention to yourself unless you have to take heavy equipment in....Me and my partners in Double Eagle Mining wound up in court back in the '80's because we had a leaky valve on our water line...It dripped about one cup of water per hour, not an exageration, and the Calif. Fish & Game sued us for excessive runoff...Mind you, we had taken 37 miners off of welfare and put them to work at good wages and were spreading the wealth among fuel and supplies sellers locally...Nevertheless, F&G sued us and we had to pay attornies and other related expenses to fight them...It happened to be in the wettest winter seen in the Klamath Mtns. for 100 years...Fortunately, the judge was an old timer who was on the side of the miner and not only threw the case out of court, but gave the fish cops a stern warning that he would have them jailed if they ever took such frivalous actions against us or any miners in the future...'Course, those days and those judges are all gone now, so put on yer camos and don't say nothing to nobody...Do your thing and cover your ass...When you're in the woods you're at war and don't think otherwise...Good luck...Here's a pic of me (Right) and my partner installing the valve in the feed pipe to our Ross Box...Also a pic of a couple of our guys running the Ross Box....Cheers, Unc

post-9-1225814542_thumb.jpg

post-9-1225815201_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Ron and Dave…Don’t tell anyone anything! If some of you are thinking that my offer to help is fishing for info you are sadly mistaken. I know it was not stated but I too would be concerned about any offer from some unknown yahoo.

I am way to busy to do someone else’s work and I am sure that my company would charge more then Wyld would want to pay. My offer is only to help point in the right direction without any information coming my way. I also would not want myself or my company to be connected in any way to the liability involved that Ron and others that I know have experienced.

In summary, Bedrock Bob is correct in his statements that you do not need to file any paperwork for minor disturbances involved in “prospecting”. A NOI is only required for disturbances of 1 acre or greater or if you are within ¼ mile of any impaired or unique water that would only be applicable to a “mining” operation. BTW you would be hard-pressed to find any impaired or unique waters that meet the criteria in 99.9% of Arizona.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to everyone for the replies.

And believe me, I don't tell anybody, anything........hence, the 'wyldkatt'.

I started using that name, when video games, and pinball machines, went from a 3 letter 'high-score' log, to whole name..

Long time ago.

Didn't realize then, that I'd become a 'wildcat miner'. And before you go thinking a wildcat miner is a 'hy-grader', a little research might show that they pick up the 'scraps', more or less, of others...

Pretty sure we all do that to some degree anyway...don't we?

Anyway, I got tired of the traditional spelling being unavailable for the games, I changed the spelling....okay. done w/ that.

This 'removing materials' thing came up over on Rods' forum.

Apparently, a FR in the Prescott Nat'l Forest, told a newcomer to prospecting, (whom he witnessed putting buckets of material

in his truck,) that he wasn't permitted to do that.

So after already having posted the 1866 Law of Mineral Estate, I also posted this Title 43 thing.

Caught a lot of flack.

Even from some of this forums' members.

It's all good with me. The Law as it applies to me, and what parts are in my favor, are all I care about.

And I suggest that we all be concerned.

New President?, new Congress?, old ideas of taking our rights from us...?

This is gonna be fun!

Thanks all. Careful out there.

~wyldkatt~

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi WyldKatt,

Your understanding of how the Federal law is pretty accurate. Unfortunately though it seems to me that each National Forest District has it's own set of rules more or less on what they require from you in order to prospect/mine. Not just in our state but in most.

Prescott Nat. Forest mining dept. actually told me once that I needed a permit "albeit free" to go metal detecting in their Forest. That was 8 years ago but it may still be in place.

Any motorized equipment in Prescott National forest requires a POO and a bond. Doesn't matter if it's a dredge, high banker or drywasher. Also doesn't matter how small the equip is.

I have a current POO in Tonto Nat. forest that does not require a bond.

I have one in Prescott that does require a bond.

Same equip, minimal disturbance.

Good luck in your endeavors,

Sean in AZ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Sean and Wyldkatt,

Things are especially nasty in the Prescott National Forest. The guy who is in charge of mineral policy Doug Vandergon, is a rabid eco-nazi that hates miners and mining. I have heard from many individuals and members of two prospecting clubs that he has outright lied to them and tried to intimidate or force them to leave or otherwise cease LAWFUL prospecting and mining. Many years ago, he used to be the ranger stationed at the Palace Station in Crook's Canyon. It was just pure coincidence that his exwife Peg Millett, was arrested and sent to federal prison for her active role in an eco-terrorist plot to blow up electrical power pylons from the Palo Verde generating station for the murderous group ELF. But hey, everyone needs a hobby! So keep an eye on that one. And know your rights!

Nuff Said, Ben

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy smokes Ben!

I didn't realize that jurisdiction had passed to a new ranger, though not surprised. When I filed my POO, it was with Vicki. Sounds like a dang shame that this new fellow has such a huge chip on his shoulder towards miners.

Keep your head low and stay on the up and up. Maybe we can get him transfered to Greenland or some place nice.

See ya in the field.

Sean in AZ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...