Jump to content
Nugget Shooter Forums

Franconia Irons, Extra-Terrestrial or Not?


Recommended Posts

http://www.nuggetshooter.ipbhost.com/index...?showtopic=8131

Ruben had this to say !

:confused0013:

Hi Jim,Earl, Bill and all,

(There may be new information that I don't know about but here is what I've learned.)

Since the very first weekend that Mike M. and I started hunting in the Franconia area we found tiny irons. When we looked at them through a loop we became very excited. Many of these irons had tiny pits and what seemed to be fusion crust. We were excited further when we found them very close to chondrites and in a few cases in the very same holes.

Here was our logic behind thinking that these irons were extra-terrestrial.

Mike and I have found many pallasites and siderites and we know what an iron meteorite should look like.

Scenario 1: Since some Franconia meteorites have large metal veins (yes we were the first to discover this also, we had some with veins so large they could easily be etched like a Portales Valley ) the irons may have come from within these iron veins. We had no problem envisioning a large chondrite exploding in mid-flight and some of these iron veins "popping out" and hitting the ground as irons meteorites.

Scenario 2: The Dutch Flat iron Meteorite was discovered in the area in 2002 and only one 48 gram piece was ever recovered. We logically assumed our irons may be part of a larger Dutch Flat strewn field.

Check the August 2002 Meteorite Magazine article "Ligua Franconia" It details that we all assumed they were meteoric. Even the author Geoff Notkin found a large nicely pitted iron with some possible signs of fusion crust.

We were the very first to bring in kilos and kilos of chindrites and our very best irons into ASU for classification. Imagine our surprise when Lora Bleacher (Lora Varley at the time) told us that the irons had little to no nickel! Upon hearing this I attempted to etch one or two. Guess what? No etch either! These were some very obvious looking iron meteorites!

Shortly thereafter a very knowledgeable friend of mine Robert Reisener decided to test the irons and check whether their chemical make up was similar to either the Dutch flat iron or the iron found within a franconia meteorite. (Rob has his own thin section machine ) Once again I supplied some very obvious looking iron meteorite specimens. After making a thin section and studing the iron guess what? The chemical composition did not match in anyway to any meteorite.

Where did they come from if they are not meteoric? Dennis Wells can comment on this better than I can. I'm not 100 % sure but I think I remember a day when he called the sheriffs office to remove a large unexploded bomb from the area? I never saw the actual bomb but did see the yellow tape marking the spot so specialists could find and remove it.

If this is the case maybe they are bomb fragments? I don't know.

Now for the disclaimer!

While I'm sure that out of the thousands of tiny irons picked up, a few, are extra-terrestrial. Maybe from one of the two scenarios I mentioned above or maybe another. However, I am convinced that the large majority of Franconia Irons are not Extra-terrestrial.

I, along with Lora and Rob may be mistaken. But until I see credible scientific proof that most of these irons are extra terrestrial and have a credible link to anything extra terrestrial I believe that most are NOT!

Keep in mind I hope I'm wrong! I want these to be meteoric, Mike or myself would be able to add another new meteorite to our name! But so far I haven't seen irrefutable proof, maybe one day there will be....I hope so!

Ruben Garcia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it never ever stops does it! :grrr01:

Me, I am just going to keep on digging them "Franconia irons" and keeping them in my little jars until someone decides to just go with the flow and not try to "beat this theory to death". :twocents:

Aloha and end of story for me,

Stan aka Kaimi

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The bomb was the emergency charge in case the gliding air targets didn't detatch. Not a large explosion. But several of those could make small patched of chrapnal i suppose. Couldn't cover much ground tho.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And it never ever stops does it! :grrr01:

Me, I am just going to keep on digging them "Franconia irons" and keeping them in my little jars until someone decides to just go with the flow and not try to "beat this theory to death". :twocents:

Aloha and end of story for me,

Stan aka Kaimi

Stan,

:grrr01:

My sentiments exactly, however there will always be those that like to stir the pot for some reason or another. Also end of story for me on this uncalled for thread .

Jim

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree 100% This thread was a cheapshot. I believe that everyone ( including the person this thread was intended to attack) is tickled to death that the irons are extra terrestrial. People are entitled to their own opinion, and in MY OPINION this site was not intended for people to try to make other people look bad. If I remember correctly we are all here for the same reason, to find, collect and discuss meteorites. Personal vendetas and one-upsmanship should be handled in private mono-e-mono (again just MY OPINION)

Paul :angry-smiley-010:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Regarding the bomb fragment theory mentioned a few times on this and other forums, here's my 2 cents worth, In my time in the military, I became somewhat familiar with the results of various kinds of explosions, including shrapnel from 500LB, 1k and 2k bombs as well as a few kinds of big mines. Bomb and mine casings are designed to be lightweight since they must be attached to planes or, in the case of mines, often carried on foot. Homemade bombs are most usually made from pipe fittings or fire extinguishers, and none of the above contain the iron mass required to generate shrapnel that could be mistaken for the kind of iron meteorites found at Franconia, in my opinion. So if we set aside bombs and look at potential targets like vehicles or tanks, in every case I've seen, even when destroyed by a 2000 pound bomb, a tank gets thrown through the air, sometimes the turret flies off, but it doesn't dissolve into little pieces of shrapnel. Most tanks are destroyed by weapons like hellfire missiles, struck from above where the armor is lighter, and simply burn out. Lighter vehicles are often blown into pieces, but usually the pieces are fairly large, identifiable as such, and don't fly very far. For example, the FBI was able to make arrests after the first World Trade center bombing by reading the vehicle serial number from the frame of the van that had exploded carrying a huge quantity of ANFO explosives (I believe that was the compound used).

Anyway, again, just my two cents worth.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Although I am fairly new to the forum. I believe that the forum is here to learn. Ruben and Mikes view, I feel is warranted. Although the Franconia Iron has been named the Sacramento Wash 005, I also think that some of the metal could have come from the train tracks or from fragments from Comp-B explosions, etc. I also feel that some of these irons came from fragmented Chondrites. I do know that if a piece of the Iron was in my collection, I'd want it to be a true space piece and not from an Earthly source. What ever comes of it all. I do appreciate all the impute from everyone. I thank you all very much, Jim Smaller, Ruben G. Mike Miller, etc., etc. :coffeetime:

Dr. Jim "hawk" Shorten :outtahere:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to add some levity to this forum may I suggest that if anyone is unsure if they have found an iron that they just PM me and i will give them my mailing address. :innocent0009: I will make a new collection of them on a section of my fireplace mantle. :laught16:

Aloha,

Stan aka Kaimi :innocent0002:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi all,

Is Dennis out of the loop? I'm not sure of his point.....

That post was a year ago or more - I think more. Anyway, I don't think Dennis was trying to make me look bad- after all, he does subscribe to my videos and has never tried to be malicious.

However, maybe he was, I don't know.

Dennis, If the irons have been classified then obviously those people that told both Mike Miller and Myself that what we had was not extra terrestrial were wrong. End of story!

We took to ASU what we though were meteorites! If they told us they were not, they must have been wrong!!!! We took the same type specimens that Jim took!!

If Jim was successful in getting them classified - and HE WAS - then he deserves credit for not giving up as quickly as we did.

I think it is GREAT! Finally a real answer.... THAT IS WHAT WE WANTED...RIGHT?

IS THAT CLEAR?

GOOD!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Jim was successful in getting them classified - and HE WAS - then he deserves credit for not giving up as quickly as we did.

I think it is GREAT! Finally a real answer.... THAT IS WHAT WE WANTED...RIGHT?

IS THAT CLEAR?

GOOD!

G'Day Ruben

Well put mate

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I get it! I am slow ....sorry. The title of Dennis's post read " Do you remember this day." He WAS trying to be malicious!

Oh well, Dennis, thats OK. I guess I know who you are now...I won't forget.

But you must be very forgetful! After all, do you recall that it was Mike Miller and Myself that first took you to Franconia? Without Mike Millers help you may never have found a single extra terrestrial rock! Do you remember?

NIce Dennis! Very Nice........

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I get it! I am slow ....sorry. The title of Dennis's post read " Do you remember this day." He WAS trying to be malicious!

Oh well, Dennis, thats OK. I guess I know who you are now...I won't forget.

But you must be very forgetful! After all, do you recall that it was Mike Miller and Myself that first took you to Franconia? Without Mike Millers help you may never have found a single extra terrestrial rock! Do you remember?

NIce Dennis! Very Nice........

Lets get this story right !

It was not YOU or MIKE that took me to Franconia ! I went by myself.

Mike gave me GPS numbers and said to head north from there ! And he thought you two hunted area clean of any large finds !

And I was not trying to be malicious !

DW

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lets get this story right !

It was not YOU or MIKE that took me to Franconia ! I went by myself.

Mike gave me GPS numbers and said to head north from there ! And he thought you two hunted area clean of any large finds !

And I was not trying to be malicious !

DW

Like I said Dennis,

"Without Mike Millers help you may never have found a single extra terrestrial rock!"

Dennis, read the posts! I'm not the only one that thought that your post was uncalled for. I didn't even read it till I recieved calls and PM's saying that you were causing trouble.

But, Whatever Dude.......

you gotta live with yourslf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...