Tucson Ring Meteorite

[Goldfinger]

Hi Guys:

I've read some accounts of the Tucson Ring Meteorite. They say it was found in Mexico yet people are still hunting for pieces of it in Az. Can anyone fill me in and make some sense of this? :hmmmmmm:

Steve

[John B.]

Hi Steve

I'm personal freinds with Richard Willey who lives a couple miles from my house :innocent0002: . Richard wrote the book on the Tucson Meteorites for the Smithsonian :coffeetime: . It's currently published by the U of A press which was the last printer of them. A real interesting book containing many accounts of thier early history in the early Tucson Pueblo. The Ring and the Carelton pieces are paired to one parent mass and do not fit together. Of course Steve they came from Mexico because all of the southern half of Arizona was Mexico until the gadsden purchase in 1854 and the ring mass was thought to be known at least a century before that :Huh_anim]: . There is two possible irons that make reports even more confusing , Arispe from northern Mexico and a known but now lost iron called Southern Az :tisc-tisc: . I believe both of them are octahedrites. Richard Willey in his book and prior to meeting me was very convinced the meteorites were from the Santa Rita Mountains :hmmmmmm: . I think he may have prejudged the early location reports and dismissed others :grrr01: . Richard has recently turned over all of his files ,drafts and research notes to Shirley at the Flandrau and I think are open to public inspection with some advance notice !! One of the great perks for my relationship with the Flandrau is I can look through all their files at my liesure ( You know Gold and space rock locations) :woohoo: !! Happy Huntin John B.

[Scotty]

Hey John,

Is his book still available to the public?

Think he'd sign one if I get it?

Thanks,

-Scotty :ph34r2:

[John B.]

Hi Scotty

Yes the U of A publications are available and yes he would probably sign one for you. I have 2 that he's signed the old orange cover Smithsonian printing and the newer U of A publication in my personal library. I haven't heard from Richard in awhile ,he's recently had heart troubles that's why he turned over all his research material to the Flandrau !! Happy Huntin John B.

[Goldfinger]

Hi John B:

I flunked history (as well as many other subjects) and you can see why. :grrr01: Thankfully, I never tried to make a living as a professional treasure hunter,etc........

Seriously though - that is one strange looking meteorite. I've seen many meteorites with holes in them but I can't picture a real large one like that developing a hole upon reentry. Surely the hole must have formed on the ground after eroding for thousands of years. :hmmmmmm: But that might not make any sense either since it's so flat. :hmmmmmm:

I read where Robert Haag was searching for it in the Santa Rita Mtns. Someone like him must have had some good reasons for hunting there....

Steve

[John B.]

Hi Steve

One of the written early accounts of the meteorites said that the fall was witnesses some 200 years earlier by the local mexicans/spanish and Indians. Bob Haag really isn't much of a hunter. But Richards book concludes that that was it's location by many of the early writings. Yet he dismissed other accounts that aren't to specific in his book but at least one of them in quite specific by a learned man of the time. There have been literally hundreds of hunters looking in the Santa Ritas including mwa and we ain't found crap. There were a few additional small pieces found by a fellow who is now dead. The pieces are the size of raisins to quarter size that Bob Purchased. The finder got them drywashing but couldn't remember where or even what mountain range !! Happy Huntin John B.

[Goldfinger]

Hi John B:

If that was a witnessed fall then my theory of the hole being formed by eroding, rusting, etc goes out the window. :hmmmmmm: Surely it didn't rust that fast esp, in a climate like S.AZ.. At the same time I can't imagine something like that landing intact.... 300- 400 years ago.

Steve

[fredmason]

Steve, IF the iron had an exceptionally large graphite inclusion, or some other large inclusion, that could explain the ring shape, I offer this as food for thought even though my theories are not supported by being a big name in the meteor game...as my angelic hero Mr B is...

fred

[John B.]

Hi Guys

The account of the fall being witnessed was written in the 1860s or so and that was the legend !! Ironically the meteorites were thought to be native iron prior to that time period ?? Soooo who knows ?? One of the projects David Kring was going to do was try and age date thier terrestrial life ! But he nor nobody ever did ? The Irons are nickle rich ataxites with small pin tip sized silicate inclusions throughout ?? Why the hole ?? Freds guess is as good as any or it may have been a larger silicate incusion ?? Happy Huntin John B.

[Goldfinger]

Hi Guys

One of the projects David Kring was going to do was try and age date thier terrestrial life ! But he nor nobody ever did ? Happy Huntin John B.

Hi John B, Fred:

We know meteorites were all formed about 4.5 billion years ago but how in the world do they date their terrestrial life? In order to estimate when they were first formed- I'm guessing they've had to analyze them for a certain element with a half life, then do the proper calculations and work backwards. What kind of test can they do to determine their age on Earth?

Steve

[John B.]

Hi Steve

There are a couple of tests but I know nothing about that. I'm the finder of the White Elephant Meteorite and I never recieved a piece of it back. Dr Kring sent the balance of it to France for some type of barrilium test. At least he asked me if it was ok and that I probably wouldn't get any of it back ,and I told him have at it. That was an L4 with a zero terrestrial age date found in the middle of the gold basin field. Dr Kring was running a series of tests on random samples of our finds from the field including age dateing. That one stood out on the age dating from the others.

As far as the Tucson Meteorites I don't know where they are ,I feel reasonably certain of some areas where they ain't ! I also have some areas that have indicators to where they may be, but it's a tough discouraging hunt with all the trash out there !! Happy Huntin John B.

[fredmason]

Steve that question has tough written all over it...technical questions are very much beyond my general knownledge...however, the rate of oxidation, and the rate of terrestrialization of a meteorite can be used to date the earth-time of some meteorites...in other words the earths atmosphere starts a clock which really smart people can read...(which I ain't.)

Fred

[Paleface]

Hi John B, Fred:

We know meteorites were all formed about 4.5 billion years ago but how in the world do they date their terrestrial life? In order to estimate when they were first formed- I'm guessing they've had to analyze them for a certain element with a half life, then do the proper calculations and work backwards. What kind of test can they do to determine their age on Earth?

Steve

Steve,

The answer to your question can be found in the following link. Scroll down to the Terrestrial Age topic. Hope that this helps. Glad that you posted that question, I learned a bunch trying to find the answer.

Terrestrial age can be a very useful tool when more than 1 of the same type meteorite is found in the same area. The Franconia area is a good example of that, 3 L6's, 2 H5's and 3 H4's. The testing is not done very often. I do not know if it has to be requested or not.

http://www.lpi.usra.edu/lpi/meteorites/Technicalities.html

Jim

[Basaltgooroo]

That is a good idea! Counting the number of isotopes on the elements present in the meteorite formed from cosmic rays "microwaving" the elements in the meteorite while in space. I learned how to turn thoes into years last year in algebra 3-4.

I'll probably get more practice this year in Pre-Calculus.

enought to make you go nuts haha

(o )_( O)

[Erik]

[Goldfinger]

Jim:

That's some great info you found. :hmmmmmm: I had no idea how they dated the terrestrial age of meteorites but that explained it pretty good. It also explains how they come up with other "ages".

That kind of testing has to cost a a few $$$$.

Steve

[fredmason]

Thanks Jim;

I knew there was a way but forgot about the cosmic ray thing...if I could remember all I forgot there would be loads of useless facts in my brain....

fred